Here's the deal -- I'm part of a group that's writing a script-based series that's set in the beginning of the 25th century aboard a Starfleet ship. It's a new class that represents all of the technological advances that were made over the past 25 years, including a bunch of cool toys that were brought back by Voyager.
One of the biggest changes is that the ship is not powered by a traditional matter/antimatter warp core. In fact, the new ship carries no antimatter at all!
The new power source is called the Quantum Induction Core, and it's based on the zero point energy principle.
I'm trying to come up with some background technobabble that explains how the thing works. I used the DS9 Technical Manual as a basis (the workings of the quantum torpedo) but I wanted to run this by the "experts" and get some input.
quote:A fusion reaction is used to generate a sufficient volume of high-temperature EPS plasma, which is introduced to the induction core. Two subspace field generators located at bipolar position form an eleven-dimensional space-time membrane, also known as a quantum filament. By manipulating the shape of the filament, a new particle pair can be called into existence. The process of generating large numbers of particles results in the induction of high-energy plasma which can be bled off from the main reaction chamber and transferred to other parts of the ship via the EPS network, and also to the engine nacelles to power the quantum slipstream drive.
Like, lots of big words, plus some new made-up ones.
And the reaction pattern inside the induction core should look like a bunny.
One of the guys in the second picture looks like he's got a face on the back of his head.
[ March 09, 2002, 13:11: Message edited by: David Templar ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Reminds me of the DSII core...
Anyways, I don't know much about ZPE, so I can't really be of much help. I think Cargile's read up on alternative forms of power, and he's done some pretty good writeups on them. Might be a good idea to look him up.
BTW, those are some interesting uniforms. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think the problem is that NO ONE knows much about ZPE theory. That being said, I'd simplify what you wrote, and reword it somewhat using M/AM as a basis for comparison. That way, people have at least an inkling of where you're coming from.
As for the cutaways, to critique them I gotta say that I don't like 'em all that much. Quite an inefficiant use of space IMO, especially with the second level. The core itself isn't that bad though, but I'd have made it a little more solid-looking. And I don't think ANY previous engineering set has had that many stations...
Hey! Why are you worrying about this when you could be worrying about Sector Beta, huh? Time for the teacher to bug the pupil!
Mark
[ March 09, 2002, 17:48: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Hey! Why are you worrying about this when you could be worrying about Sector Beta, huh? Time for the teacher to bug the pupil!
I'll have you know I've been working on that invasion plan since I first read the "assignment." It's a damn tough job with all those annoying defense stations scattered throughout the system. I've got to take a break every now and then...
[ March 10, 2002, 06:40: Message edited by: MinutiaeMan ]
Posted by Fedaykin Supastar (Member # 704) on :
wrong answer!
j/k
the cutaways look good, definately better than anything i could have ever done.....not that i can do anything but yeah they're COOL!
IMHO i think that slug of text u quoted for us. sounds believable.
Buzz
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Unfortunately, using ZPE as a power source may not be the best idea. Martin Gardner had a very interesting chapter in his book "Did Adam and Eve Have Navels?" about the whole ZPE debate. He quotes several physicists who raise major problems with ZPE. The Nobel Prize-winning physicist Steven Weinberg said that the total amount of ZPE available in a space the size of the earth is about the same as the energy obtainable from a gallon of gasoline. So much for quantum drive (and quantum torpedoes).
[ March 10, 2002, 09:47: Message edited by: Woodside Kid ]
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, I suppose that depends on how it's handled. I don't know enough about the principle of ZPE to know how it works.
I just copied what I read in the DS9 Tech Manual -- and basically uses a quantum filament to create particles from nothing. That might not be ZPE as today's physicists understand it, though.
Posted by Phycro Onyx (Member # 579) on :
i might be able to help you with that, i am in the process of writing a novel that includes the thoery of warping time instead of space like warp cores do. if you need help contact me, and where did you get the pic from did you make it? it is extremly thorough.
[ March 11, 2002, 12:43: Message edited by: Phycro Onyx ]
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Hello all!
I mentioned this to a friend of mine who runs a PBeM sim and he took a look and wanted me to post this on his behalf.
quote:Actually in all reality,
The space represented by a single cup of coffee holds enough energy in the form of ZPF to boil off all of the Earth's oceans instantly and completely.
That is the kinda power that they are talking about and a gallon of Gasoline can not and will never be able to do that. Even if you were to encrease the current efficiency rating for a gasoline engine with something like a Fuel Cell engine; from 30-40% to something near 99%
Sorry but I find Woodside Kid's statement to be absurd... For my Source of this information, I quoted Doctor H.E. Puthoff, PH.D. who is currently the leading researcher into the field.
In fact, the idea that ZPF represents that much energy is based upon mathematics. Which is Why NASA has opened up it's own research into the concept now.
Given this I really don't know who you're talking about or how in the world they came up with what you are quoting. I say that because why would NASA invest millions and possibly billions in the future to something that doesn't give them more power than their current solid state rocket propellant? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Furthermore, most of the techo babble that I have read on Quantum Torpedoes is that it is a ZPF reaction. The explosions in the show from that doesn't look like a Gallon of Gasoline blowing up either. sorry but I couldn't resist saying that, no offense meant though. Really though, the technobabble for ZPF already has an open door into Star Trek because of that.
Well that's all. He says that he's gonna sign up, but wanted to get this said ASAP. I'm more than happy to help my friends out! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er...some scientists think that you can pull lots of energy from a vacuum, some think you can't. There isn't any consensus, and there certainly isn't any hard theory about it.
Posted by Merenzine Gold (Member # 788) on :
I don't know about drawing energy from a vacuum but ZPF has been proven to exist actually. If you don't believe me, then go into any Physics text book and look up 'Plank's Constant'. I do not mean the abreviated version that Electrical Engineers, and such, use. I mean the true/full version of what Doctor Plank wrote.
You see the reason that nobody has taken ZPF into account is because it exerts a 'zero' net force. The reason for that is because of what ZPF is and not because it's 'weak'. ZPF is radiated everywhere, in everydirection, in equal sense. Where it comes from, they don't know but they know its there. Yet because it radiates onto any object from all directions, its net force is zero. So the abereviated version takes the ZPF side of the equation out.
However they have conducted experiments have taken two mental (I forget the actual substance at the moment) plates and put them parrallel to each other. At a certain distance from each other, they are propelled together by ZPF. The problem of turning that into a generator is because it takes the same force to pull them apart as it does for ZPF to push them together.
:: shrugs:: you can not believe me all you want on this but I can even show you the A I got from my Physics professor for writing my paper on ZPF that included this information. If you still don't believe me... well everyone is stubborn at somepoint in their life. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: I don't know about drawing energy from a vacuum but ZPF has been proven to exist actually.
Erm...just where do you think this energy is found?
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Hurray!
Welcome to Flare Merenzine Gold - glad you decided to join our ranks. (Looks at profile) Ah! So that's what you look like You only need another 249 posts to become a Senior Member and get your own personalised status line (50 to use html if I remember correctly). So get posting and addin' to these (sometimes heated, but always funny) debates! HEHE!
And yes, my previous post was on behalf of this person . . . in case you were wondering.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:However they have conducted experiments have taken two mental(I forget the actual substance at the moment) plates and put them parrallel to each other.
where did they get these cool mental plates? plank's constant and actual, real zero point energy are two totally different things. last time there i saw articles in the journal nature about this, the concensus was that zero point energy probably doesn't exist as an actual, practical phenomena. and these articles were done by physicist with more credentials than an A paper in physics class.
--jacob
Posted by Merenzine Gold (Member # 788) on :
::gets a full body shiver::
ooooooooooooohhhhhhhh!!!!!!!! goody... somebody meet my condition of bringing out all the stops...
Okie here goes:
yes Plank Constant is not the Zero-Point Field. In that one is a forumula involving Electromagnetics and one is a Hypothesis. ( http://www.vacuum.narod.ru/P103_11.htm )
As for ZPF actually existing? I referr you to an actual document from the Science American Journal for you to purse so that you can come up with a little bit more factual statements to back up statements against mine. ( http://www.sciam.com/1297issue/1297yam.html )
Oh sorry that was was five links... still though they are very informative into the field from which ZPF exists and it would prove without a shadow of a doubt that ZPF is 'very' real. Of course my own paper is merely a college level thesis but who cares right? when compared to well known and respected scientists writing their doctorates and articles on such things as this, yeah I would say so. Yet it appears to be more work than anyone here has done on this.
Sorry if I seem a bit harsh but someone from here mentioned I should give as good as I get. I hope you enjoy the literature... ta!
Oh!!!! and if you were to actually know Plank's Constant in its full form you would see that ZPF is 'in' Plank's constant. As I said, people normally take that part of the equation out because in a normal setting, it presents a zero net force. So there is no need to figure it into their experiments and such. Please note however that I said 'NET' force... if you know anything about physics you wouldd know that 'Net Force' and Force itself are two totally different animals as well.
[ March 12, 2002, 17:22: Message edited by: Merenzine Gold ]
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
The question isn't whether or not the ZPF energy exists; it does. The question is whether or not it is possible to extract a usable amount of energy from the field. I suggest you get a copy of the book I mentioned and read the chapter. It does mention Dr. Puthoff, and not in a very flattering light. If I have to choose between the scientific opinion of Dr. Weinberg (a Nobel-prize winner whose work was proven experimentally) and Dr. Puthoff (a man who validated the "powers" of crackpot psychic Uri Gellar and who spent years wasting research money on remote viewing)....well...
Posted by Merenzine Gold (Member # 788) on :
crackpot?... lol, I am sure many people called Albert Einstein the same thing before the atomic bomb proved his theories. Considering inflation and how long ago that was, would it take blowing a whole island the size of Japan off the face of the Earth completely to convince you?
Research isn't about investigating what you know to be true. It is about researching what you don't know. I don't have to read the guys book to know basically what he says because every scientist against Puthoff says nearly the same thing.
However please consider this, ZPF has the potential to either be the source or effect gravity and inertia a great deal. We all know that gravity and inertia to be true, no? We all know how powerful gravity and inertia is. So if a byproduct of ZPF's effect on our reality is Gravity and inertia, shouldn't there by a lot of energy just waiting there in the form of ZPF?
A lot of scientists are saying that Puthoff wants to get something out of nothing... free energy if you will. I don't think his research says that even remotely. I think he is merely researching something that has the potential to change history of the human race drastically. I think he is researching something because nobody 'KNOWS' anything about it and they haven't ever known. So I personally think that possible reward is worth whatever research money can be aloted to him; so that he can find out. Why? because that is what the Scientific process is all about. Investigating the unknown is the only way we are ever going to get off this ball of rock that people call Earth. If we don't get off this ball of rock? Well considering the forum this is in, I would suggest that we all know without a doubt that the human race has a very short life expectancy... mostlikely tied to the Earth's life expectancy.
Woodside Kid, you say you have a scientist that says there isn't enough ZPF energy. Well I am sure I can show you a scientist besides Puthoff who says there is a tremendous amount. Who is right? Well no one 'Knows' anything really about it so I say their both wrong. Mathematics is based on known values and ZPF is completely unknown. So I say your scientist is a crackpot himself for suggesting he mathematically proved that there isn't enough ZPF energy. Such a theory is without any logical reasoning because there is nothing from which to base it upon.
Another thing, remote viewing is real. Whether you believe it or not, I do. Puthoff supporting that man means he believes it too, despite people like Dr. Weinberg and your criticism. An act to which I find very honorable and admirable... We all have to believe in something and Puthoff following his beliefs despite people like you calling him a crackpot too... well I find that very admirable.
Now please hear this... if ZPF is truly tied to Gravity(Mass) and Inertia, then it matters very little how much ZPF energy there is. Why? because we would now have artificial gravity and faster than light travel. Why? because by manipulating your 'mass' and 'inertia' you are manipulating your effect on space... thereby separating yourself from space. Given enough separation the rules of e=mc2 become transitory because you are not in this reality anymore.
Of course you probably will call me a crackpot for saying that but how many of Star Trek's notion of fancy are being proven or being built? Did you know that trekkers/scientist have actually built a 'Transporter'? The problem currently is that the recieving computer can't put the object back together fast enough and it ends up in goe. The point is that what you consider 'impossible' today may just well be proven as truth tomorrow.
I on the other hand try to keep my mind open because nothing is impossible. I also support Dr. Puthoff because he is researching what the majority think is 'impossible'. Well... if we always researched what the church/government/society said was common sense where would be? Without America, without Newton, Without Einstein... need I go on? our scientific history is made up of scientist some people call heroes because they researched something that they knew to be truth but was against what everybody else said.
[ March 13, 2002, 12:53: Message edited by: Merenzine Gold ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Ah, remote viewing. I was wondering how long a discussion of zero point energy would take to devolve to the Art Bell level.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Bunnies. Big, soft bunnies.
Posted by Merenzine Gold (Member # 788) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
sorry but I couldn't resist saying that, no offense meant though. Really though, the![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)