My problem is if the TNG Borg cube(s) are (is) really that much larger (something like 7km) than the ones in Voyager. The same question with the spheres (although I neither see much of a visual difference nor a size difference between the one in "First Contact" and the various Voyager spheres).
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Huzzah!
I'd thought we'd decided that there are more than just one class of cube. Visually, we've seen at least three: the TNG cube, the FC cube, and the Voyager cubes. We also know for a fact that the VFX guys were speicifically told to size the Voyager cube down somewhat.
My take on this is that there are at least two major kinds of cubes - the typical versions we see plenty of in Voyager, and the less common larger cubes we have only ever seen outside of Borg space. This latter type may be larger to reflect longer range, or simply that these cubes had assimilated more stuff.
Mark
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Did you know that the cube from Wolf had a sphere, too? I watched the episode of Voyager again where Seven's nanoprobes and Doc's holoemitter create that drone. And at the end Voyager is chased by a sphere. We get an internal view and it is exactly the same 'internal doughnut' we saw in First Contact. This means Picard was inside the sphere during the flashback scene, or, in other words, there was a sphere attached to the Borg cube.
And Seven identified the ship as tactical long-range sphere, allthough the ship was the same we saw in First Contact.
I can't remember who, but one of the guys who created the cube for 'Q Who?' said they wanted the ship to be somehow 'unique' within the collective. Each cube starts as a standard ship from the yard and then assimilates everything availabe, people, ships and colonies, which lets it 'grow'. This would explain why the cube from 'Q Who?' and BoBW looks different (It already assimilated entire fleets and colonies) from the cube from Voyager (probably newly built cubes. This would also explain the different sizes and crew counts of each cube. However, it is not canon.
And I thought the coffin was smaller than the Intrepid. I know factfiles (?) give a larger size for it, but they also give a size of 600m for the sphere from FC, which seems to be incorrect, too. I think it should be about 150-200m.
And there seems to be some confusion about the target of Admiral Janeway in 'Endgame'. I thought everything took place on board the hub, and they only blew up the hub. The design similarities with the unicomplex seem to be coincidences.
And I'd say they built another Diamond, since the set (the queen's chamber) was reused for 'Unimatrix Zero', and from what we saw in 'Dark Frontier', it was located on board the Diamond. Of course, I have no idea how many of those are located inside the unicomplex, but it would make sens to have it on board of a ship rather than a structure.
For the sphere from BoBW, maybe the queen used it to escape from the timeframe before the she initiated the destruction of the cube. We know that there was a short moment betweeen the sleep-order and the initiation of the destruction, maybe the queen used the time to escape after she realized that ther was no way to reactivate the drones. And there is no convincing reason to assume it was the sleep-order that caused the destruction. Do you really think the cube can't handle the simultaneous regenreation of all drones on board?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
One suggestion: I've referred to the Borg "coffin" as a "probe" instead. It's a more functional name that appears to describe its purpose.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Didn't Sternbach speculate (quite nicely, IMHO) that Borg cubes "grow" as they assimilate and thus vary greatly in size?
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Bernd:
quote:5) The crew size of 129,000 is mentioned for the cube encountered by the Raven (VOY: "Dark Frontier"), while the visually identical Cube 630 (VOY: "Unimatrix Zero") has a complement of 640,000. It is possible that the latter includes newly assimilated drones."
Me thinks you will find that should be 64,000 not 640,000.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Wasn't the sphere in "Drone", like, really, really big?
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
First things first:
I'd really, really suggest we don't ignore the appearance of the Borg and their hardware throughout TNG just because the dream sequence in First Contact suggests that the Wolf cube is identical to the FC cube. After all, the dreams were clearly influenced by telepathic communication, where Picard could've first seen the modifications and combined them with his memories. We're looking at a variant of the Klingon-forehead problem, so I'd suggest the same solution. I'd call this "cube variant #1". The Voyager cube would be the "standard cube" since it seems to be the most prominent.
I remember Sternbach mentioning that this cube appeared to him 10km or so wide in a shot. On the other hand, there are perspective shots that suggest a more reasonable size of 2km. Check "Q Who".
The First Contact cube is 9000 feet (2743m) wide according to a comparison sketch by John Eaves in the Magazine. This is consistent with the two-mile figure from a Cinefex article; its author has confirmed online that the size was actually used by the Visual Effects, so we're fine. Since it's clearly different from the standard Voyager cube, I'd call this a "cube variant #2" and use the 2,743m size, with a corresponding "sphere variant" at 1500' (457m). Let's not forget how meticulously we treat differences between Starfleet ships -- the same should apply to the aliens.
The Voyager cube ought to be 3.0km on a side because that's the canon size. Nevertheless, there is a Voyager VFX article in the Magazine where an artist gives a 5km size for a cube. That's consistent with Rick Sternbach's comments on startrek.expertforum.ricksternbach; he had given the writers crew sizes and basic specs on three sizes of cubes -- at 5km, 10km and 15km (where the bigger cubes are based on his perception of the TNG cube size, which I still think is only 2km wide)
He also speculated on cubes being built up from smaller cubes, and it's possible that the VFX artists shared the thought -- after all, the cube is usually just BIG, so the viewer shouldn't be able to notice any size changes. Maybe this is how the spheres grew in later episodes, since they're supposed to maintain the same relationship with their hatches that are visible on cubes.
On the other hand, we'd be running into the problem of scaling again since the models are clearly the same. However, maybe Mojo can tell us if the VFX artists tried something like combining several cubes into a single cube mesh -- that would increase the size without scaling anything.
Given what we know, I'd rather stick to one type of Voyager cube -- at 3.0km on a side, and call this a "standard cube", with a corresponding "standard sphere." According to an old usenet post by our friend Mojo, "most of the texture maps came from photographs of the actual Next Gen and First Contact cubes." This applies to cubes -- I don't know if the sphere was modified when it was rebuilt in Lightwave. It would be nice to find some specific differences between these cubes and spheres.
Boris
[ March 15, 2002, 20:16: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I asked Mojo just this question a while back... He says that they built the Voyager cube as a plain cube, to which they added 2D texture maps essentially copied from pictures of the TNG cube. And then on top of that, they added 3D grids, pipes, and all that other stuff. This created a semi-illusion of the multi-layering of the physical model, without actually layering lots of 3D stuff together on the computer model. And as a step beyond that, the Tactical Cube in "Unimatrix Zero" simply plastered the armor and weapons blisters on top of the existing cube model.
Dunno how this helps, but beyond that I think we can be pretty sure that the cube model was only scaled, and not modified in its different sizes by multiplying it. However, I'd bet that the cube 3D constructs are multiplied all over the model to create its exterior. It's not like we'd notice the same tiny pipe a hundred times over...
Mark
[ March 15, 2002, 20:21: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The sphere in "Drone" certainly looked larger, looming over Voyager. But we never saw the sphere from FC next to a starship.
However, it was just meters smaller than the hatch it escaped through, as I recall. We've got a size for the FC cube, no? I should think we could figure out the size of that sphere, then, and compare it to Voyager's.
Er, unless Bernd already did that. I looked at the link earlier today, but I forget.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Looks at the carnage around me. Sighs with relief that Bernd has yet to say anything about my crew size comment, and that Boris has apparently ignore me. PHEW!
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
I just hadn't researched crew sizes yet, but here's something from good old Google Groups -- a poster happened to collect the canon references to crew sizes.
"Species 8472 has penetrated matrix 010 grid 19. Eight planets destroyed. 312 vessels disabled. 4,000,621 borg eliiminated. We must seize control of the alpha quadrant vessel and take it into the alien realm." Borg Collective, Scorpion Part 2
"It's a borg cube.... it's massive. 28 cubic kilometers. 129,000 lifeforms on board." Seven's Mother (scanning vessel), Dark Frontier
"Spatial Grid 94, Cube 630. Compliment: 64,000 drones." Borg Queen, Unimatrix Zero Part 2
"Spatial Grid 091, Sphere 878. Compliment: 11,000 drones." Borg Queen, Unimatrix Zero Part 2
So yes, you're right. A couple of people also mentioned that over 50,000 people were added to the 129,000 in Dark Frontier, so 180,000 would seem to be the maximum number we've seen.
Somebody also quoted a 120,000 number from the behind-the-scenes section of the FC novelization -- could 129,000 be the average complement of 3km cubes?
Also, in "Omega Directive", Seven quotes 600,000 drones and 29 vessels lost, which works out to 21,000 per ship. However, do we know if all the ships were cubes?
Boris
[ March 16, 2002, 07:58: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I remember Seven saying how many ships and drones they lost when they tried to capture the Omega particle. But I don't know the exact numbers.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Thanks for your hints, guys. I have now two types of cubes and two types of spheres.
And Kyle, I checked Endgame, and it was supposed to be the Unicomplex that was destroyed (Adm. Janeway entered the hub to get there, and the Queen mentioned the Unicomplex).
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
On a sidenote (whatever that means ), I think Borg Cubes (and all their ships, possibly) vary in sizes. I like the idea of Borg ships more or less 'growing'. This would mean that any new Borg cube will be just the size the Collective wants it to be. So there might be a lot of ships the same size, but there's nothing against bigger or smaller ships.
Posted by Boris (Member # 713) on :
I added more data to my crew size post.
Good update. I'd suggest increasing the maximum number on a cube to 180,000, based on the over 50,000 added in "Dark Frontier." Another nitpick: 1500 feet converts to 460m, not 450m (I know, I know...)
As for cubes growing and such -- Data noted that although it is "uncertain" whether the "Q Who" and BOBW cubes are the same ship, the dimensions are "precisely the same." (according to the script, haven't checked the aired version). Either it was the same ship, or there is in fact little variation between Borg cubes of the same variant.
It also occured to me that if the Voyager cube really shares components of this one (as Mark indicated), then they ought to be the same size: 3km.
Also, the Borg scout ship was given a mass of 2.5 million tons in the episode.
[ March 16, 2002, 09:47: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:1500 feet converts to 460m, not 450m (I know, I know...)
Oh yes. I will probably change all figures to "approx." anyway. This will save me to look up the conversion factor each time ;-)
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
I've always had a problem with the mass given for the scout ship from "I, Borg." It seemed unbelievably high for so small a vessel. Given the size of wreckage on the planet, it would seem this ship had a density of tens of thousands of tons per cubic meter; what the hell was this thing made of, anyway?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
I have no idea what they are made of, but maybe that was just a part of a larger vessel, maybe an escape pod. Or the thing was more heavily damaged than we thought and these were just the remains of the original ship.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Was 7of9's sphere really small or did it just had a very small compliment?
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Don't know, but it seems a bit ... strange that all the survivors are part of Seven's 'number', in other words two of nine or three of nine. Or maybe there were only nine survivors and the drones assigned new numbers to themselves.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Not really, on hugh's scout ship, there were only 5 drones and he was designated third of five.
[ March 17, 2002, 11:52: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
that would be a good shot to use for the scout..
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One wonders whether crew size is proportional to ship size or ship mission...
Perhaps a scout, not tasked with wholesale assimilation, does not actually require much of a crew? A handful of drones could be aboard for the odd maintenance duties. Thus, the "small" scoutships from "I, Borg" and "Survival Instinct" could in fact be very large and simply very thinly crewed. While the Borg are mostly famous for being cyborgs, perhaps they are also good at pure robotics - perhaps their ships don't really need crews?
Then again, we have seen the drones operate the ships "manually" in many a VOY occasion. Do they *need* to press those buttons to make the ship work, or is that just "make-work" to keep the drones busy and happy?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Sighs with relief that Bernd has yet to say anything about my crew size comment, and that Boris has apparently ignore me. PHEW!![[Smile]](smile.gif)
), I think Borg Cubes (and all their ships, possibly) vary in sizes. I like the idea of Borg ships more or less 'growing'. This would mean that any new Borg cube will be just the size the Collective wants it to be. So there might be a lot of ships the same size, but there's nothing against bigger or smaller ships.