Just occured to me what Starfleet's fleet would look like a few years after the Dominion War, if we still go by that if any of post-TNG series was still on it would be 2378-2379. Thats 3-4 years after the war, so would Starfleet be back to its pre-war strength?
Rebuilding the Fleet In the first two years, I am willing to bet that Starfleet would be still building a war time production of ships to replace those that were destroyed during the war. What I mean by replacing these ships, I mean by whatever role they served in the pre-war fleet, they would be replaced with a ship equalling or surpassing their abilities. For example, a Excelsior class ship was destroyed and she was assigned to patrol the Romulan Neutral Zone during the pre-war years, now however with the Romulans being more peaceful since the end of the war (assumption) that ship would ship to replace that Excelsior would be built, a Akira class or a Intrepid class but instead of replacing one ship it would replace two ships equaling the capabilities of the nwer ship, right? So one ship is less costly than a two ships, which is good for post-war fleet that would have crew sizes going down.
Performance of the Ships The war was perhaps Starfleet's best way to analyze it ship's performance during the war. This could be wither good or bad. Meaning that Starfleet takes a look at the Excelsior class and sees that the kill ratio is 1 to 2. For every enemy ship destroyed by a Excelsior big or small, two Excelsiors are destroyed. Meaning that either the Excelsiors could be brought in for a major refit similar to the Lakota class or class-wide retirement of the Excelsiors and are replaced with more capable ships. Now this is not limited to combat ships, but to explorer ships as well. However they can be analyzed during peacetime since it does not take a war to see how well a ship can 'explore'.
Replacement of Ships As in rebuilding the fleet, Strafleet after about three years would start replacing aging ships with more capable ships, which could hold less crew than lets say 3 ships with a combined equal abilities to the single newer ships. This could 3 Oberths vs. a Nova class, or 3 Mirandas vs. 1 Defiant (more like 10 Mirandas). Strafleet couldn;t do this before the Dominion War, for alot of reasons, first it was the Borg. It was though that the Borg would invade the Federation with more ships than just one. (You can see that because a 40 ship fleet was only assembled within a week but a 600 ship+ flet could be assembled ina few weeks. So 600 ships can probably overwhelm even a Cube's defenses.) Then it was the Cardassions, then the Klingons, the Borg again and then finally the Dominion. St that point my guess, Starfleet would not decomission ships but keep them in the front lines (for target practive for the enemy). Now that the war is over, the fleet is back up to pre-war strength, now its time to get rid of those shships that showed to be almost target practice for the enemy. In the end, a modern post-war fleet would be 5.000-6,000 ships vs. a 10,000+ pre-war fleet but both fleets would be equal in capabilities.
What do you think the Post-Dominion War Starfleet fleet would look like?
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I think the way you cut down raw hull numbers in favor of fewer but more capable platforms is a big mistake. No matter how good a ship is, it can only respond to one situation at a time. What you're suggesting could mean a reduction in front line vessels by as much as 45%.
You also underrate the performance of Mirandas and Excelsiors against the Dominion. I'd put the Mirandas at 1:1 and Excelsiors for Jem'Hadar attackships, 2:1 and 1:1 for Galors.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I think that the older ships would be stored or turned in to a reserve fleet, manpower numbers would increase, for a decade, at least. History shows that a quick dismantlement of the military is usually followed by another increase, WW1 to WW2, WW2 to Korea, Korea to Vietnam.... Then we finally got a break.... Having learned this lesson I think Starfleet/Federation would keep the numbers up, especially with the Romulans or Breen looking at them. The increase in more capable ships with smaller crews would only prompt a larger fleet, using a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 ratio, say, 50 Excelsiors would be replaced by 100 to 150 Nova/Intrepid/Defiant class vessels. Rebuilding the fleet should also take about a decade, unless I missed something on screen, what was it Shelby(sp) said about 359, a year?? Given wartime production would cut that in half, maybe in third, that still leave quite while to rebuild.
Exploration may take on a totally new aspect also, especially in the areas around hostile nations. This will probably be done by the larger vessels taking a smaller volume to explore, keeping help nearby.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think that we can't get an accurate estimate of what should or shouldn't be built without first settling on what was lost - something we've never been able to agree on, because we've in turn never been able to settle on how large the fleet was in the first place.
We're also given precious little evidence as to the actual combat performance of other ships during the war. The best we've been able to see is what ships tend to be blown up during the various battles we've seen, which is only a tiny percentage of the fighting that actually went on. Following strictly canon evidence, for example, you can say that Excelsior and Akira class starships are piss-poor in big battles, simply because we see more of them get blown up during the war than any other classes. Likewise, since we've never seen a Steamrunner blow up or even get damaged during the war, one could equally surmise that they have stronger shields and superstructure than other classes. Obviously, this circumstantial evidence is weak at best.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think the first four responses to this thread also begin with "I think".
Mark
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
You also said "I think" when you said every post was "I think"
Yes, seriously do you think that a Excelsior actually can hold her own against modern ships? Yes if they are upgraded like the Lakota. I am willing to bet that four things could happen:
1. Strafleet keeps the fleet it has and replace only those which were destroyed. Start with 10,000 ships and end with 10,000 ships
2. Starfleet rebuilds the fleet, decomissioning older ships. Replacing those which were destroyed and decomissioned. Start with 10,000 ships end with 10,000 ships.
3. Strafleet rebuilds the fleet, replacing the older ships with newer ships a ratio of 2:1 efficiency. Start with 10,000 ships end with 6,000 ships.
4. Starfleet rebuilds the fleet, replacing destroyed ships and refit the older ships. Star with 10,000 ships end with 10,000 ships.
Now this assuming that Strafleet did begin with 10,000 ships of course. But thats not the issue here. The issue here is what Strafleet would have done to rebuild the fleet after the war.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
You also said "I think" when you said every post was "I think"
Yes, seriously do you think that a Excelsior actually can hold her own against modern ships? Yes if they are upgraded like the Lakota. I am willing to bet that four things could happen:
1. Strafleet keeps the fleet it has and replace only those which were destroyed. Start with 10,000 ships and end with 10,000 ships
2. Starfleet rebuilds the fleet, decomissioning older ships. Replacing those which were destroyed and decomissioned. Start with 10,000 ships end with 10,000 ships.
3. Strafleet rebuilds the fleet, replacing the older ships with newer ships a ratio of 2:1 efficiency. Start with 10,000 ships end with 6,000 ships.
4. Starfleet rebuilds the fleet, replacing destroyed ships and refit the older ships. Star with 10,000 ships end with 10,000 ships.
Now this assuming that Strafleet did begin with 10,000 ships of course. But thats not the issue here. The issue here is what Strafleet would have done to rebuild the fleet after the war.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Well, the USS Hood was doing pretty well with the Defiant while taking out the orbital weapons platforms of Chin'toka. While other Excelsior class ships like the Valley Forge were destroyed, more modern ships (compared to the Excelsior and Miranda) like the Akira didn't fare well either against the OWP.
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
What the hell is Strafleet?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
It is the new name for the smaller Starfleet.....
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Leaner, tighter, more economical. It's the wave of the future, baby!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Somehow, I get the impression that waging a war from the UFP point of view is like waging a war in "Civilization" with "Democracy" as your form of government. You can build a pretty impressive fleet, more easily than the competition, and based on more advanced technology than the competition. But try and *field* that fleet, and you get into huge social and economic problems.
Starfleet probably has plenty of ships, even after the war attrition. Most of those ships are probably still far superior to most of the competition - after all, we're talking about a whole quadrant (or two) here, not a small inbred cluster of nations whose technologies are closely matched because of a centuries-old escalation process. A century-old Miranda can still clean the chronometers of the biggest and baddest Bugomite warships, a half-centenarian Excelsior can still keep the Tentaclians at bay, and so forth.
But can Starfleet afford to maintain the crews for these vessels? Mothballing a ship in space is trivially simple - just abandon it there, and pick it up a million years later, as good as new. But crews can't be mothballed. Would Starfleet be capable of training in peacetime the huge reserves needed? Would these hordes of Feds be interested in serving in Starfleet outside the time of war?
I think Starfleet would be in a great hurry to demobilize after the war, lest the whole UFP society collapse due to the neglect of its civilian aspects. Ships could be repaired or replaced as soon as the economy went back to the prewar efficiency, but they would by definition be crewless, or else there wouldn't be an economy to get them built.
In the RW environment, wars boost the economies of the nations that supply the weapons. But in the UFP-Dominion conflict, there would be no separate nation that supplies the weapons for the UFP side while taking no casualties back home. The Feds would be buying from themselves. The industries created to support the war effort would have nobody to sell to after the war, and would probably just weaken the economy.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Would these hordes of Feds be interested in serving in Starfleet outside the time of war
Under normal circumstances, I'd say the answer would be an easy yes. Starfleet has always been presented as being (in actuality) what the modern U.S. military claims to be today. That is, a fun way to advance a career, or explore a field of knowledge. Of course, in both cases, signing up does involve the occasional risk to life and limb, but I'd wager that risk seemed pretty distant to most UFP citizens post-Khitomer. The Dominion War probably changed that perception.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
"I think" it is a bit unwise to attempt to use real-world economics of the 20th Century to guesstimate what would happen in the post-war Federation.
In the 24th Century, mankind has evolved to the point that the basic necessities are so easily obtainable that economics as we know it is no more. I don't think you can put Federation economics on our current spectrum of communism - socialism - capitalism and get any clues from there. There is still trade, to be sure, and there are still some monetary forms, and a person can still become "embarrassingly rich" in the 23rd Century ("Devil in the Dark"[TOS]), but greed and the acquisition of things is no longer a driving force (ST:FC) . . . the population is free, comfortable, and happy.
One must also consider what falls inside or outside the Federation. I'd imagine the Federation must have some sort of exchange system for trading with those (Ferengi, for instance) who have some sort of more classical financial system (I'm reminded of Crusher's cloth purchase from Farpoint). The miners of Janus from "Devil in the Dark" could have been a group outside the Federation economic system, getting Federation payment for their minerals.
Of course, it may well be that, given how all we usually get to see is intra-Starfleet economics, the Federation civilians might still be using greenbacks, or euros. However, in the era of the replicator, I find this unlikely . . . not just because they could replicate most forms of physical cash, but also because the replicator (along with older technologies, such as those Kirk referenced in "Catspaw" that would have allowed him to make fantastic gems aboard ship) represents such a sea change in economic thinking. Goodbye, gold standard.
Applying 20th Century economics to such a world is questionable, at best. Imagine, if you will, how those Old World kings and queens of the 15th Century would view our current system from their mercantilist perspective, our current economy so outside their experience that they would not understand it or be able to appropriately place it on whatever spectrum they might use, and you get an idea of my point.
Now, I do agree that the Federation would be more likely to rebuild civilian infrastructure before rebuilding the fleet, provided that Federation security was maintained. However, I'd imagine that military reinforcement would only be second or third in the list of priorities, not tenth or twentieth. Almost every major Alpha and Beta quadrant power sufferred mightily, but there are some (Gorn, Tholian, etc.) who, as far as I know, were not involved, and some did not suffer as much as others. It would be best not to let them take advantage of their position.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I think that while it is a bad idea to apply 20th century economic ideas to the UFP, it is not necessarily a bad idea to apply them to Starfleet. War hasn't really changed much and doesn't look likely to by the 24th century; the reponses are likely to be pretty much the same as for a modern military, with the added factor of large numbers of exploration and scientific vessels in Starfleet, many of which will have been destroyed and need to be replaced. the first couple of years will be at wartime production levels, probably with about equal numbers as pre war: older ships will probably be refitted and possibly some new production (tried and tested spaceframes w/new interiors and systems).
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 811) on :
If I was in charge of Starfleet procurement, I would put more emphasis on developing runabouts, shuttles and smaller ships to take up some of the missions normally handled by larger ships. I'd put a stronger emphasis on improving tactical performance also.
My focus would be on development of small and midsized craft as opposed to large multi-mission platforms. Increased automation would be a priority also. The underlying idea is to maximize the effectiveness of available personnel, assuming that Starfleet will have post-war shortages of trained crew.
As for older ships, I would either mothball them or sell them to planetary spaceforces
One aspect I would emphasize on the larger explorers is an increase in shuttlebay capacity and improving a ship's ability to replicate shuttles.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
Um, if ships runabout-sized and down can take over the role of larger ships, why would we need larger ships at all?
Runabouts and smaller craft are no good for anything other than short distances, and lacks the room for most missions. Plus, not everything ship can mass-produce shuttlecraft like a certain acursed starship no longer stranded in the Delta Quadrant can.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
I agree with Timo that these "old" ships like the Miranda and Excelsior can still serve a purpose in the post-war fleet. Even if the remaining ships are not refitted, I doubt Starfleet would quickly decommission them. "Just because something's old doesn't mean you throw it away." There are plenty of duties Starfleet would need filled such as transport and shipping patrol against pirates and other smalller threats, etc. that could easily be carried out by the now legendary ships.
If Starfleet chooses to refit the vessels, they could rebuild the fleet faster. We know Excelsiors can be refiited with the latest weapons, and I'd bet that even newer ships like the Ambassador could be brought up to standards.
Now, I doubt that Starfleet would continue production (if it was even in progress before the war) of these ships. While there is some controversy over using registry numbers to date ships, the general rule is that newer ships have higher registries. Most (not all) of these older ships top out in the NCC-50000s.
As to newer ships, I'd imagine Starfleet would continue to modernize the fleet, supplementing traditional roles with designs proven in the war and before like the Galaxy, Intrepid (I'm sure they did their part in the war), Defiant, Nebula, etc. While Starship Spotter states that no future Galaxy class starships are in production, I doubt Starfleet would be so short sighted to recognize how the class is still an excellent explorer and from what we saw in the war, the ship's tactical performance was impressive with no ships lost in the footage we saw (obviously, it is possible they lost ships in the unseen portions of the war, and ships were lost when entire fleets were wiped out such as by the Breen).
As to the Sovereign, I think I've finally figured out its role. The Enterprise-D was originally supposed to go out on deep space missions, but it later was constantly operating within the Federation, dealing with empires like the Klingons and Romulans, and showing the "flag." It seems logical that the Sovereign was designed to take over these tasks to let future Galaxy class ships continue with the original mission plan. The Sovereign's smaller size and apparent lack of families, etc. seems better suited to this role than going on missions of 5 to 10 years without stop like the Galaxy.
Thoughts?
[ April 11, 2002, 18:32: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
I think Starfleet would probably take the oppertunity to crank out as many new hulls as they can in the period just after Dominion War. Since their shipyards were brought to full capacity because of the war, this allows them to build ships fast and cheap. Who knows when the Federation Council will give Starfleet the chance to expand itself in such a dramatic rate again? Also, if they wait until the shipyards drop back down to a peace time operating tempo, the production rate is going to go way down, and per unit cost is going to rise. They don't even have to build complete starships, they can just stockpile empty hulls, spaceframes, and major components for a rainy day.
But I also agree with what Ace said, Starfleet would probably use their increased shipyard capacity to upgrade as many of the existing ships as possible, together with building more of the newer classes with the intend for them eventually be numerous enough to allow phasing out of the older classes.
Personnel shortages remains a problem, but I'll have to try to address that later, exam in 7 hours.
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
If you're talking about building a fleet with multi-role capability it would be more likely that they would veer towards building specific task warships and multi-role exploratory vessels.
We can also consider a scenario such as:
* Using fleet carriers to dispatch numerous 2-3 man craft with short ranges and high firepower.
* The carriers themselves would be protected by their own weapons and a battle group(With large troops transport vessels, warships, medical & supply ships etc).
I'd wager that starfleet would want to put some kind of advanced propulsion system into their ships (such as a quantum slipstream drive) as it would provide them with a significant military edge, as the fleet would be far more mobile than any of those involved in the last war.
Also, you'd want to install large solar defense networks (for example like the one in the Chintoka system) so that so many fleets are not tied up on gaurd duty. These solar defense networks would need to be a combination of mines, weapons grids and -once again- high powered short range fighters. With more mobile fleets, lower numbers of troops needed (due to small fighters) and more specific training (ie. specific training as combat pilots) you'd lower the demand in resources and manpower considerably.
As Timo & others mentioned above manning these vessels is a key issue. Industrial production may be able to produce a certain number of vessels, but how many can you actually maintain, deploy & how many personnel will you need to train?
With the high level of technical expertise needed you'd have to say that manpower would be a (if not the) major constraint.
[ April 12, 2002, 07:36: Message edited by: Daryus Aden ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Probably a safe bet that people are working double shifts fairly often
And that personnel on deployment don't get a day off, either ...
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
For me, I have always been wondering if the Excelsiors we see in DS9 is actually different from the Excelisor we see in the movies. Of course the sips will have their various swappable components replaced and upgraded. But if was that easy to make the Lakota, why can't they have done that in peacetime? Why wait until something like the Borg comes along and find out that all your Excelsiors and Mirandas are shitty?
If I Starfleet, I would have had either those ships upgraged to Lakota standards or replace them, regardless if they are efficient in fighting lesser powers.
Imagine when the Dominion fought, seeing a whole butvh of Lakotas flying around doin as much damage as the Defiant does. I would have replaced those so called "phaser arrays" on the roll bar on the Mirandas with phaser cannons from the Defiant. But thats just me.
Using a carrier then support ships for smaller ships so that a one or two large ships are not needed? That makes no sense.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Hell, yes!! I am fairly sure that the Excelciors and Mirandas with the higher (4xxxx and 3xxxx) registaries would be significantly different to those produced during the movie era; new computers, warp cores, sensors, weapons etc. older ones could be upgraded. I think Starfleet would use the period after the war to produce as many ships as possible.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Take this for what it's worth, and consider the source, but; the DS9 technical manual suggests that the Miranda class (featuring rollbar) comes with some sort of phaser cannon.
Now, again, the source. Consider it.
Still, it doesn't seem utterly impossible that the Mirandas might have had a low power version of the Defiant's weapon system installed. There's not the slightest onscreen hint of it, though.
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Surely that's just referring to the fandom-designated "megaphasers" of the rollbar...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Which we've never seen used since the second movie...
Mark
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
..and never struck me as particularly different to the Enterprise's phasers.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This is my thinking. Er, that is. Or rather, this is: The Reliant's fancy phasers must have been unique in some way, else why bother with them? They didn't add anything to the ship's coverage.
Secondly, it seems to me most likely that those specs (again, such as they were) refered to the "modern" versions of those ships, and not those of a century before. So, if 24th century Mirandas have "pulse phaser cannons" these are presumably of some more modern design than those of the Reliant, whatever those happened to have been.
Again, this isn't an idea I'm particularly attached to. It's not like we ever saw, or will ever see, a Miranda using such a weapon. But, and call me sentimental, it makes for a fun image, as well as a way to extend the usefulness of the poor old class.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I agree, and yes they were used in the second movie. Right before the Enterprise and the Reliant were going to collide, the Reliant fired her rollbar phasers at the torpedo launcher 'thingy' on the Enterprise. I might be wrong but I do remember it being fired.
The modern Miranda must have some sort of phaser weapon there that could balance the ship with other modern ships. I once modified the Miranda class to look modern, with a red tint in the bassard collector, bluish tint, in the warp grid, a thicker pylon and roll bar, a phaser cannon and torpedo launcher of my own design. It looked a ok to me, though with this computer and that image long ago being deleted by my bro, I can't make another one.
Though it would be interesting seeing the Miranda firing phaser 'pulses' like the Defiant from her roll bars. Make the ship useful in modern fleet situations.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er...the Reliant only used those rollbar phasers in the film, and never the traditional ones dotting her hull.
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that while it is a bad idea to apply 20th century economic ideas to the UFP, it is not necessarily a bad idea to apply them to Starfleet. War hasn't really changed much and doesn't look likely to by the 24th century; the reponses are likely to be pretty much the same as for a modern military, with the added factor of large numbers of exploration and scientific vessels in Starfleet, many of which will have been destroyed and need to be replaced. the first couple of years will be at wartime production levels, probably with about equal numbers as pre war: older ships will probably be refitted and possibly some new production (tried and tested spaceframes w/new interiors and systems).
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