I've heard from a ton of people that ENT screwed up by putting Romulans in, however, does anyone know of the back story to how they got where they are in that Ep? The only BG I ever saw about Warp came from DD Books about the Federation encountering the Romulans and then the Romulans disabling one of the Federation's ships and using it to construct their own. This obviously isn't true in the timeline recently established, so anyone know what the story is?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
There is no story. We don't know if the ENT BoPs had warp or not. I'm inclined to say they do have warp, and the TOS BoPs also have warp. In this case, the whole story becomes a nonissue.
OTOH, Rick Sternbach, in one of his Magazine articles, proposes that the early BoPs were carried to the frontlines by huge warpcarriers, and that the BoPs themselves usually didn't have warp drive.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
In no way do I think that Enterprise screwed up the Romulans and how they are portrayed in "Minefield", because frankly, there is not enough information available to misread or judge their technological place in the 22nd Century.
Here are the facts gathered thus far based on quotes from "Balance of Terror":
Spock : "Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the movement of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the neutral zone established from treaty following the Earth-Romulan conflict of over a century ago."
Spock : "As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels, which allowed no quarter, no captives, nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore no human, Romulan or ally has ever seen the other."
Spock : "Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this neutral zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time."
Kirk : "After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship will look like, Mr. Stiles. I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves." Stiles : "You'll know sir. They're painted like a giant bird of prey."
Kirk : "I had no idea history was your specialty." Stiles : "Family history. There was a Captain Stiles in the space service then, two commanders, several junior officers -- all lost in that war, sir." Kirk : "Their war, Mr. Stiles. Not yours. Don't forget it."
As for Romulans and warp...Scotty DID mention that the bird of prey they were pursuing ran on "pure impulse power". This does not indicate that the Romulans of 100 years past did not have warp drive or even that OTHER Romulan ships of the 1701 era didnt have warp drive, simply that the ship in question, which they were pursuing, was running on "simple impulse power".
It seems highly unlikely that a species that somehow got from Vulcan to Romulus 1000 years ago, which seemingly has subspace radio, and cloaking devices (during ENT era and based on TOS info) cannot be sophiticated enough to have warp drive.
If you think about it, the weapons we have seen on the NX-01 so far have been significantly primitive compared to what we see on the 1701, not to mention the fact that a ship limited to Warp 5 is fairly primitive by the means of the 23rd Century as well. Also consider that the NX-01 is also the most sophisticated ship of its time. For all we know, it is reasonably likely that in young fleet-based agency such as Starfleet, employed many known primitive ships indiginous to that era, such as the ever popular DY-500 model or what have you. The same can be said about the Romulan vessels, which may only be limited to low warp as well.
Again, there is not enough information present based on TOS, ENT or otherwise to indicate Romulans do or do not have warp drive during the era of the Earth-Romulan War. Only time will tell, as presumably this is a topic that will build over the next 5 1/2 years.
BTW isnt this more a "Starships & Technology" related thread?
the search engine is a marvelous thing...this topic has been covered in one fathom or another in many ways.
[ February 18, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
You are correct, sir. *poof*
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Ah, there we are. Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Well, they screwed up in "Minefield":
1. The name "Romulans". Clearly a reference to Earth's history, which should have been made up by some human (even Archer himself in a predestination paradoxon). But it comes from the translator and from T'Pol, respectively.
2. The cloaking. Something astonishing and new in "Balance of Terror", the Romulans have it already here. Don't anyone tell me they wouldn't use it in the war and it wouldn't become a well-known tactic.
3. The missing bird depiction on the ships. This may seem like a minor point and we could still excuse it in that another ship type with a bird on it will be predominant in the Romulan War. On the other hand, Styles' statement sounded very definite (as if all ships had it). It is annoying that they didn't try to get at least this right.
quote:Styles : "You'll know sir. They're painted like a giant bird of prey."
4. The ship's overall too modern look. This is something we must get used to, but Eaves could at least have restrained himself and (for once) not used his usual pointed nacelle designs.
They didn't screw up the warp drive issue. Romulans must have had warp drive already back then. The common notion that they didn't has no canon ground but an over- and mis-interpretation of the "simple impulse" statement by Scotty from BoT.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Hey! You shouldn't really involve ENT in *any* TOS-based historical analysis. It almost never works, or else it's very dissapointing
Damnit! The 22nd century was ours to play with!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sternbach's pertinent article from Star Trek: The Magazine may be found here, and is vague enough to allow flexibility of interpretation as things progress on ENT.
And Bernd, there clearly is a bird-like design to the bottom of the ENT BoP. The fact that it's not actually painted on is rather insignificant.
-MMoM Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Styles' comments at face value, take not. Or Spock's. That is the path to the dark side.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Styles : "Family history. There was a Captain Styles in the space service then, two commanders, several junior officers -- all lost in that war, sir."
Isn't there a Styles on Enterprise? Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Stiles.
and when, on ENT?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Has everyone forgotten the line by Picard about Romulans only getting warp, 100 years previous to Insurrection?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
yes, because thats not what he said.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Has everyone forgotten the line by Picard about Romulans only getting warp, 100 years previous to Insurrection?
No, actually it said simply as follows:
Adm. Dougherty : "Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an Empire. We can handle the Son'a. I'm not worried about that." Picard : "Somebody probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago."
I am not entirely sure what this means, but I think
quote:Romulans only getting warp, 100 years previous to Insurrection
is assuming a bit much.
Granted we know for certain that appox. 107 years earlier "The Enterprise Incident" that Romulans had warp drive...but I hardly beleive a line Picard was using on Dougherty for dramatics is enough to establish as a date. This is especially evident because 1) The Romulans were an Empire in "Balance of Terror" (a al word of 'the Preator') and 2) Wasnt there something about Romulans near Alpha Centauri in DS9's "Past Tense"? Does anyone know what that was for sure...but I think that "Past Tense" has some fairly damning evidence to suggest Romulans had warp or something more advanced that Earth 20 years from now...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
That line is now subject to interpretation, as it has been called into question by more sensical stuff. But just to be clear, here's the pertinent INS dialogue:
quote:PICARD Our "partners" are nothing more than petty thugs.
DOUGHERTY (dismissing that) On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders. Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a, I'm not worried about that...
PICARD Someone probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago.
-MMoM Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Beat ya MMoM Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Well, they screwed up in "Minefield": ... 2. The cloaking. Something astonishing and new in "Balance of Terror", the Romulans have it already here. Don't anyone tell me they wouldn't use it in the war and it wouldn't become a well-known tactic.
Ah, but how astonishing and new could it really have been in BOT even without Minefield? Archer and crew are in possession of a cell ship with a perfectly functional cloaking device anyways. In fact, they've even used it themselves and on ensign expendible plus. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think it's important to note that roughly a hundred years before "Insurrection" the Romulans, having come out of their exile and putting aside various border incidents like the destruction of several Federation outposts and the Starfleet theft of a cloaking device, seemed well on their way to becoming close friends with the Federation. Why, the Romulan ambassador was trusted enough to sit in on high level strategic meetings in the President's very office. What happened after that, and perhaps as a result of it, should serve as an object lesson about the dangers involved when a former enemy is considered pacified.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i cannot believe we're rehashing this. it should be obvious that the 'romulans getting warp' and the 'federation being worried about romulans' statements are not directly related.
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