Working on data for my Cut-a-way model, I noticed THIS blue print showing 'cargo doors' on the upper surface of the primary hull, just in front of the Impulse Engines. Any opinions on what they are? and are for? I expect that they are large access doors, for the impulse engines, but what if they are cargo doors? that's an odd place for cargo.
Posted by Darth_DotCom (Member # 986) on :
Actually that wouldn't be such an odd place for cargo doors, IMO. Your original assumption could still be right, they could be a way of loading/unloading large impulse engine parts into and out of the saucer quickly. They're located close enough to the impulse deck, that they could house massive components (sic) to large to move through the standard corridors. Maybe there are large "bay" doors on the inside of the cargo area that allows the impulse deck crews to move the parts in and out during repairs and maintence. But then again I could be wrong and it could be just a quick way for them to store the saucer sections supplies &/ crew's personal property close to the living sections of the ship so the quarter master and his teams don't have to waste time hauling them up from the main cargo deck in the stardrive section.
IIRC, ST:TMP shows us some open cargo bays on the underside of the saucer section when Kirk ans Scotty do their flyby at the start of the movie, can't remember if there were any open on teh dorsal section of the saucer; I'll have to rewatch the DVD to check for sure.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The underside in TMP had one open "door" that was actually intended to be a landing pad by Probert. In case of a saucer separation and atmospheric entry, the pad would extend to support the flying saucer on the ground. Of course, it could just as well be that the saucer would "crush-land" like the E-D saucer did, and this was "in fact" a cargo door...
The underside also has two pairs of hatches for docking ports, one of which is used by Kirk for a spacewalk but only seen in detail in cut scenes. And even in those scenes, the matte work was never properly finished. The internal configuration of those ports and adjoining airlocks could be very different from what Probert originally intended. The airlock set is a bit difficult to plausibly fit inside the hull the way Probert intended - once again, as with Main Engineering, there is a corridor there that is too long and straight to fit in without TARDIS tech.
Generally, I think the TMP Enterprise could have used even more hatches on the various surfaces. The secondary hull doesn't have features that would correspond to the painted areas of the TOS secondary hull. Had Probert included even a few hatch outlines down there, we could now assign those to TNG-style engineering features like "core ejection" and "antimatter refill" and whatnot...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I figured that those were where the Drydock latched onto the ship. Enterprise B was attached that way and so was the Enterprise D (in the Ships of The Line calander)and Enterprise E in Nemesis has a simular configuration (although attaching at the conviently located main shuttlebay).
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The underside in TMP had one open "door" that was actually intended to be a landing pad by Probert."
The pads are there, but none of them are ever seen open.
Here are the hatches. I got four captures and tinted and labeled the various panels.
quote:The underside also has two pairs of hatches for docking ports, one of which is used by Kirk for a spacewalk but only seen in detail in cut scenes.
And which can be seen open in both the spacedock and Spock Walk sequences.
quote:The internal configuration of those ports and adjoining airlocks could be very different from what Probert originally intended. The airlock set is a bit difficult to plausibly fit inside the hull...
I've never seen any of Andy's drawing for the airlock (I've never asked). What's your source for that? I'd be curious to see.
quote:Generally, I think the TMP Enterprise could have used even more hatches on the various surfaces.
Very likely. Just looking around the hatches we do see open you can clearly see similar hatches on both sides. It's reasonable to assume there are more.
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The airlock set is a bit difficult to plausibly fit inside the hull the way Probert intended - once again, as with Main Engineering, there is a corridor there that is too long and straight to fit in without TARDIS tech.
The set seems to work well from the standpoint of the unofficial, but well done, Star Trek VI blueprints, as well as the set diagram from Mr. Scott's Guide.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Right. The corridor problem only emerges if one thinks what else has to fit on that deck. And that's not really Probert's problem, it's Shane Johnson's. Judging by TMP, it could be that the corridors from the two presumably identical airlock complexes just meet each other a few meters away from the computer core or turbolift shaft (or whatever runs along the saucer axis on that ship). But there isn't room for "auxiliary control" on that deck, at least not in the SJ configuration.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: Working on data for my Cut-a-way model, I noticed THIS blue print showing 'cargo doors' on the upper surface of the primary hull, just in front of the Impulse Engines. Any opinions on what they are? and are for? I expect that they are large access doors, for the impulse engines, but what if they are cargo doors? that's an odd place for cargo.
I've also noticed some other strange features on the saucer's dorsal surface.
The red one we know from TMP to be a small cargo/personnel elevator, but the others are uncertain, could they all be the same kind of cargo elevator? I find it hard to belive that so many would be needed. My personal theory is that they're escape pod hatches, I did some scale calculations and they are about the correct size for the type of pod depicted in Mr Scott's Guide and their positioning is consistant with the hatches marked on the Enterprise-B's MSD. Still, has Probert ever issued a definitive guide to the purposes behind all of these mysterious hull features? I'd be nicee to hear it from the horse's mouth.
As for the underside, there appears to be a total of twelve large hatches! That's counting the four potential landing struts. Ventral Saucer Dorsal Saucer Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
On the Starship Modeler, Trek forum, I picked up this, refering to those big door-shaped things on the top view, by the impuslse engines.
From The Yoshinator: I know I've seen illustrations of those that were done back in the late 70's in preperation for Star Trek: The Motion Picture. I have it somewhere. But it would take forever to track down. I think they were amongst some illustrations of the Impulse Engines.
IIRC they were originally shuttle bays. But since they were never emphasized, the evidence of what they truely are is still uncertain. I do remember there were originally some warning markings that encircled them.
This I'm very unsure of: There may have been an ST:TMP shuttle sitting there, in the pic, right on top of it. If I ever find it. I'll try and post it.
My guess is that these bays there very much like DS9's They just dropped in. They most likely had a forcefeild activated above to seal the opening while a shuttle was there. Just like the forcefeild seal/doors in the main bay that seperates the landing area from the cargo area.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sorry to take this discussion just a little off course, but I'd like to take a moment to address the underside of the saucer in more detail.
While Rev's pic is of the CGI model created by Foundation Imaging for the Director's Edition of TMP and shows only 12 hatches on the ventral saucer surface, there are in fact 14 on the actual studio model:
(Please see here for the full sized original pic.)
A. (Red) Airlock docking ports, the portside of which was used to exit the ship by thruster suit in TMP. B. (Blue) According to designer Andrew Probert and David Kimble's official blueprints published by Paramount with the release of TMP, the landing pads that would extend to support the saucer after it had separated and landed on a planet surface. C. (Green) These are curiously omitted in the Foundation CGI model and in the old official blueprints, but one of them (visible in MrNeutron's screencap in the post above) was seen open during the drydock sequence in TMP. It's difficult to tell exactly what they are, but they could be cargo hatches or just simple maintenance access panels of some sort. D. (Magenta) One of these was also seen open and being attended by a work bee in TMP. (Also visible in MrNeutron's cap.) It appeared to be similar or identical in nature to C. E. (Yellow) These four are still a complete mystery, but could of course be ascribed any number of useful purposes. An interesting little theory of mine is that at least two of them may retract or drop down to reveal torpedo tubes, thus explaining the "TORP BAY 3" and "TORP BAY 4" signage seen in some of the battle sequence shots in TWOK. (For an interesting look at this tidbit, check out this article at Trekplace.com.)
As to the hatches/panels on the dorsal surface, the large ones in front of the impulse engines aren't labeled in Kimble's blueprints and I can't recall seeing them labeled anywhere else, including Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise. The story that Woozle got at Starshipmodeler may simply originate from the early Probert concept sketch below, where a "Shuttle/Admiral's Barge Hanger-Elevator" was located behind the bridge mound. However, this is merely early conceptual art:
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Generally, I think the TMP Enterprise could have used even more hatches on the various surfaces. The secondary hull doesn't have features that would correspond to the painted areas of the TOS secondary hull. Had Probert included even a few hatch outlines down there, we could now assign those to TNG-style engineering features like "core ejection" and "antimatter refill" and whatnot...
Actually, interestingly enough, such markings were added to the model when ILM re-did the paintjob as that of the Enterprise-A. They can be observed in this photograph.
-MMoM Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Since I'm planning a cut-a-way model project.... I think that a combination maintenance and cargo bay would look cool, under those hatches.
On the other tenticle, they may just be ejection hatches, for APUs.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Could be the unidentified hatches are covering some of the long missing lifeboats. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Hey, that E-A repaint looks really fascinating!
We can do many things with it:
a) Pretend it was there all the time, even in the E-nil refit.
b) Pretend the hatches were there, even in E-nil refit, but were not painted conspicuously in E-nil.
c) Say the hatches and the associated paint job were present only in ST5&6, and claim that this was because the E-A was a less extensive refit of a TOS ship than what was done to the E-nil.
In any case, the ventral things suggest major engineering functions situated aft of the botanical section (either related to the warp reactor, or then to something else like tractor beams or sensors). Perhaps the vertical core doesn't quite eject directly down, since the attractive round hole is so far back - but the antimatter refill ports and pod ejection hatches could very well be back there, and not at the bottom of the vertical shaft after all.
Or then the core in the E-A really is that far back (since the E-A was never shown to have the huge cargo hold), and a corresponding structure may have been there in TOS ships as well. If we go by a) or b), then the E-nil refit could have had this circular hatch farther forward...
The red outline on the fantail undercut would perfectly serve as a cargo door in the TOS ship. Here, the beacon pimple and the gridlines make that highly unlikely. Perhaps this is just an approach aid for shuttles? The four things under the keel look more like actual hatches, or blowaway or sensor-transparent panels.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Right. The corridor problem only emerges if one thinks what else has to fit on that deck. And that's not really Probert's problem, it's Shane Johnson's. Judging by TMP, it could be that the corridors from the two presumably identical airlock complexes just meet each other a few meters away from the computer core or turbolift shaft (or whatever runs along the saucer axis on that ship). But there isn't room for "auxiliary control" on that deck, at least not in the SJ configuration.
Timo Saloniemi
What are you using for reference. By just using Shane Johnson's material, the Aux Control is on Deck 7 and the saucer Docking bays are one deck below at the forward of Deck 8; still plenty of room to fit both.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Or then the core in the E-A really is that far back (since the E-A was never shown to have the huge cargo hold)
In Star Trek V, the two large doors are shown closed (or mostly so), isolating the Cargo Complex from the Shuttlebay. You can see in the TMP Cargo area that two large doors are completely open and show us the shuttlebay. There just needs to be a turbolift between the doors on the Shuttlebay side. There's no reason to believe the same large Cargo Complex isn't behind those doors.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Is it possible the mystery yellow 'doors' could be the early form of transport emitters (the little yellow strips that are seen on 24th century starship hulls)?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I wholly agree that E-A (and even E-nil TOS) could have had the same main cargo hold arrangement as the E-nil refit, just with physical doors in place of a forcefield. I just wanted to point out that this need not be the case, if we want to have fun with Main Engineering placement. Drexler's "Captain's Chair" cutaway of the TOS ship sort of suggests that Main Engineering (or at least the control area thereof) is somewhere close to the pylon stems...
I also like the idea of some of the surface features being transporter emitters. That IMHO is what those long black triangles on the TOS ship were, too (they are of far too silly a shape to be used as landing pads, like some insist). Preferably, the emitters would be non-opening features - so the yellow features are the best bet. The green ones could be torpedo gunports - the magenta ones are poorly positioned for firing forward, and the pads and airlocks are already established features.
The airlock vs. auxiliary control blood feud follows from SJ's insistence that auxiliary control be a two-level space. Note the ladderway down to "auxiliary fire control" in the drawings. Of course, this facility could be really, really small, or then located aft of the saucer axis instead of around it.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I assumed before reading the entire code for the colours that the green and magenta panels are just panels of the hull that had been removed because the work bee was working on what ever was underneath - in drydock. They are they only two types that end between the grid lines. The other 'hatches' don't really follow the grid lines - occurring in the middle of or crossing over 'grid lines'.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Of course, it's still a bit uncertain whether those gridlines mark "panel" edges or, as the technobabble goes, deflector waveguides. Even within a single "panel" there's that Aztec pattern that may denote the real detachable units of surface plating. And the deflector waveguides might run across a hatch and move with it, although that's silly engineering if you ask me.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: SNIP [i]E. (Yellow) These four are still a complete mystery, but could of course be ascribed any number of useful purposes. An interesting little theory of mine is that at least two of them may retract or drop down to reveal torpedo tubes, thus explaining the "TORP BAY 3" and "TORP BAY 4" signage seen in some of the battle sequence shots in TWOK. (For an interesting look at this tidbit, check out this article at Trekplace.com.)
Tho I can't find the specific reference, I seem to recall at least one - if not more - references to "E" above being landing leg hatches. The theory, IIRC, was that they would extend if the saucer was able to make a "soft landing" on a planetary surface, and instead of "skidding in" as the E-D saucer did in "Generations", would "touch down" using it's maneuvering thrusters. It's not in the Kimball "official" TMP set, nor in Shane Johnson's "Mr. Scott's Guide". My understanding is that the "Landing pads" ("B" above) was for use in stabilizing the ship after landing, tho it would make little sense to have two sets of equipment that do essentially the same job and take up critical space inside the space frame....
Anyhow, after thinking on it, I think it does make sense for the two "rectangular" areas on the upper primary hull to be some sort of cargo/machine access hatch for the impulse deck area. I wasn't exactly against it before, I think, but having put a lot of thought, it makes sense. I don't buy them being shuttlebay's, tho I do like the Andrew Probert sketch that shows a bay there.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If some are legs... could some be ramps a la "The Voyage Home" Klingon BOP?
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
I think it'd have to be a rather long ramp, since it'd be a couple 'decks' (floors) to the ground.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
It could be a slide like from an aeroplane - but the person would probably have burnt up from friction by the time he/she/it had gotten to the ground!
Maybe their hatches for ion pods?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
According to the cutaway diagram from 'Scott's Guide', there is in fact a planetfall ramp located at the separation line between the saucer and the neck.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Hey, Stephen! You beat me to it! It was also included in some of the older fan-produced TOS era ship stuff. Might even be in the FJ Constitution class set, but I'm too tired to try and look it up.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Could they be Work-bee launches?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I don't think so, at least not those two on the top of the primary hull, after of the VIP Lounge. Besides, there is a "Bee-Hive" in the shuttlebay, wherein I believe four each WorkBee's are stored on each side, for a total of eight. Might be three per side, but for some reason eight is stuck in my head.
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