Hey was I reading over at EAS about Bernd's impression of the ENT romulan ship and how he thinks it's a little too advanced... I tend to agree but that's besides the point. It suddenly hit me... what if the Earth-Romulan War set the Romulans back a hundred years to near pre-warp levels? This would explain a lot after the fact, right? Anyway, just a thought, I don't have time to elaborate on it, but there isn't much need to. What do you think?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Sure, it's possible, but it implies a level of destruction so massive that...well, it doesn't exactly fit with the post-conflict relationship between the two powers that we've seen. All the anecdotal evidence suggests, in my opinion, a relatively short conflict that ended in a bit of a draw, with little or nothing in the way of territorial gains on either side. If Earth had been in a position to bomb every Romulan world back to the Einstein age, surely they would have been in a position to at least get a good look at one, if not occupy some Romulan territory outright.
Of course, you could suppose that Earth launched a sizable wave of relativistic projectiles at all the planets in the Star Empire, and Earth ships never got anywhere near them, but, uh, that's a little extreme for the good guys in a Roddenberry universe.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That would also fail to offer a reason why there'd be a stalemate that would last for 100 years afterwards.
Don't take for granted the political decision to make a neutral zone where neither side may enter in order to keep each other at arm's length. That kind of situation only develops when two sides are at approximately equal strength and are willing to concede certain territories.
It's like the Korean DMZ -- an enforced border that developed mainly from equal forces.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think the Romulans probably had far superior technology during the brief war but their relatively limited rescourses meant very few warp capable starships. The warp drives the had were built into carriers for smaller BOP's than the Enterprise version and during the war many of thses were lost....along with enough of starfleet to make continued hostilities a bad idea. Thus the Neutral Zone was born.
Limited dilithum or antimatter rescourses also would explain the Romulans shifting to a singulatity based power source for their ships.
Just a thought or three...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But the Romulans having limited warp drive all stems from a single line in an episode that plainly didn't mean what certain people think it could mean. The BOP in "Balance of Terror" quite plainly could travel FTL. And in modern Trek talk, FTL = warp. There's no need to argue about big ship carriers, or anything like that.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I am bringing this up again, but there is a second source for the Romulans not having Warp then... Picard/Dougherty debate in Insurrection.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
AAARGH.
"Warp drive turned a bunch of thugs into an empire" and "we can handle the Son'a / somebody said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago" are NOT causally related, per se. Period. There shallt be no more rehashing.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
He is right.
Unless you want to argue that the BOP in "Balance of Terror" lacked a FTL drive. But to do that would be a sign of madness.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
if you believed that your brain would be running on simple impulse
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: if you believed that your brain would be running on simple impulse
Better than maneuvering thrusters!
Failing that - decompressing the main shuttle-bay - which you know will save the day! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Is tha3t why I ke3ep hitting the "3" on my ke3yboard by mistak3e? 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Getting way far off...
1) I postulated the idea that the Romulans lost warp drive or a significant portion of their warp capable ships during war because it seemed like they weren't much of a threat for a while after that.
2) Just because you set up a DMZ has nothing to do with the fact that both sides where equal. Earth might have seen that the war was over but they didn't feel like destroying the Romulans [who would?]... as a concession to end the war they went for the Romulans demand of a DMZ.
3) "BoT," as if we need to go over it again, indicates nothing to me about the ship not being warp capable, only that it was using "Impulse Power" in other words "Fusion Power." And for another matter, where the Romulans were at would have required some type of FTL flight [period].
4) I was trying to rationalize Picard's conversation about the Romulans in Insurrection. There is no doubt that the Romulans have had FTL capability for many more years than Earth, but it also seems likely that they haven't had the development to Antimatter/Matter power or the ability to produce as many warp capable ships as Earth.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The thing is, to destroy the Romulan capacity for warp travel, and to destroy it in such a way that it stays destroyed, suggests that Earth would have had to have made pretty serious inroads on destroying the Romulans in general. It isn't good enough to just destroy every Romulan ship, or even every Romulan shipyard. Look how quickly industries can get repurposed in the real world. To ensure that the Romulans couldn't build any warp capable ships, I think you'd have to destroy the majority of Romulan industry. You'd probably also need to kill most of the warp engineers pool, including potential future ones. That implies a pretty severe number of casualties. And you'd have to do this on any Romulan world whose industrial base could potentially support constructing warp drives.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One should note that Earth could have cut the Romulans off a crucial warp resource, though. Think of, say, Japan at the later stages of WWII, or just prior to it. No oil, no coal and little or no iron ore or bauxite means no war industry beyond the very basics, even when the society itself remains mostly unharmed.
What would be a crucial warp resource? Remus has dilithium, it now seems - and one can have warp without dilithium (or perhaps synthesize it, like one can synthesize liquid fuels out of coal?). But could Romulans have been short of warp coil materials? Should the RNZ be seen as an embargo measure first and foremost?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think the same concerns apply in that case, though. Either Earth is in a position to block trade from one planet in the Star Empire to another, in which case they've essentially conquered the Romulans and destroyed the empire, or they've wiped out every warp drive, functioning or in the process of being built. Either scenerio seems to me to argue for an overwhelming sort of victory, which I don't think is what's intended.
On the other hand, we know very little about this war, so it very well could have proceeded in such a way.
Incidently, re: the Neutral Zone as an exercise in economic sanctions: Has the issue of whether or not the Federation or the Romulans prevent neutral third parties from crossing it been raised? Moreso the Federation, since presumably if the Romulans want to prevent someone from traveling through it they simply blow them up.
The only example I can think of is in DS9, when we hear that the Dominion is making attacks across the Neutral Zone, presumably in an effort to split Starfleet's attention and resources. But I don't remember if anything was mentioned about the Romulan position on the issue; whether they were actively letting the Dominion through, or whether they were just not overly anxious about preventing it. Or, I suppose, whether they honestly didn't know about the attacks until they occured. And, of course, the Dominion hardly represents a neutral third party. What about "Birthright"? The Yridian ship took Worf across the NZ, as I recall.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Incidently, re: the Neutral Zone as an exercise in economic sanctions:
The only example I can think of is in DS9, when we hear that the Dominion is making attacks across the Neutral Zone, presumably in an effort to split Starfleet's attention and resources. But I don't remember if anything was mentioned about the Romulan position on the issue; whether they were actively letting the Dominion through, or whether they were just not overly anxious about preventing it. Or, I suppose, whether they honestly didn't know about the attacks until they occured. And, of course, the Dominion hardly represents a neutral third party. What about "Birthright"? The Yridian ship took Worf across the NZ, as I recall.
I believe regarding the Dominion crossing the RNZ, Dax says that the Romulans really shouldnt(/or didnt) care because the Dominion is just running across their back yard to give the Federation a bloody-nose or something to that effect in her defense of why the Romulans dont really have any reason yet to join the war despite these incidents. The Yridians are probably neutral third party, as they trade information with just about anybody, including the Romulans, so I am sure it doesn't phase them too much.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, what I'm getting at is, is any attempt to get from Federation space to Romulan space by crossing the Neutral Zone illegal and policed against, or does the Federation merely prevent its own citizens from doing so? I'd think it would be the latter, because who knows what's on that Random Alien Name ship, and best not to have it come from your territory anyway.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
My thinking is that they only keep Federation citizens from crossing. While we've not heard mention that I can recall, there have almost got to be alien races that exist in the Federation that aren't actually member worlds. I'm thinking that the Orion's weren't supposed to be UFP members and that the UFP pretty much surrounded their worlds, tho that might be my recollections of the FASA RPG conflicting w/my canon memories. The Yridians might be a "real" example of this in TNG/DS9, too.
Anyhow, would the UFP keep them from traveling thru UFP space? Probably not. They'd likely allow them to roam about in the Federation, especially if they've proven to be Mostly Harmless in the past. The UFP being big socialists and all, prolly figure that the promotion of free trade works quite a bit better than keeping whatever races exist in the UFP who aren't members. Besides, it also gives the UFP less to worry about if Race A is allowed to travel about, so that they have access to other resources.
There's also McCoy's line in ST:TWoK in regards to the Romulan Ale that he brings Kirk. When Kirk opens up the wrapping and see's what's inside, the conversation goes something like the below - from memory, so sue me if I get the actual wording wrong.
quote:Kirk:"Romulan Ale? Bones, you know this stuff's illegal."
McCoy:Now, I just use them for medicinal purposes. Got a fella brings 'em across the border every once in a while."
Other hilarity ensues....
Anyhow, that indicates to me that there are at least some races/people that are allowed across the border. Perhaps for diplomatic reasons? Maybe it's Race A that has a treaty w/the UFP and does trade w/the Romulans? Or maybe it's just illegal Ale smugglers and McCoy's connected. He is a Southern Gentleman after all, and we all know about moonshiners....
If there are races that are allowed trade access to the Romulan Star Empire, I'd bet good money that there would be ships on either side stopping the vessels and searching them. After all, would either side want some sort of plague to be sent over from their enemies? That or some sort of weapons being brought over? I'm sure that there'd still be a great deal of smuggling going on, but each side would likely stilly police it rather heavily and reduce it best they could. Sort of like a modern day Korean DMZ.
Just my thinking on the subject. It's something I don't often do, just to warn you.... Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Regarding the Picard/Dougherty conversation once again, with what we know from Enterprise, could the "bunch of thugs" still refer to the Romulans? The visual evidence of all the Romulan power in "Minefield" clearly supersedes this remark. The assertion that they didn't have warp drive would be just like naming a whole civilization "thugs" -- propaganda. I wonder if Starfleet's history lessons are that bad.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Again - a case of B&B revisionist history?
And reguard the "simple impulse" line by scotty in BoT... impulse power has always referred to propulsion - not power supply.
I can't remember when in the episode Scotty said this - but maybe the Enterprise had knocked their warp-capability off-line??
OR maybe the Enterprise when scanning the Romulan ship didn't pick up a warp-drive as they were using a forced quantum singularity drive? BUT again we come to... Picard's line throwing it all out the window.
Maybe in a special edition they will have it re-edited to him saying "2-centuries ago"?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This is like a whirlygig of wrong.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What is?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe it's time for a new SWDAO page... Frank??
SWDAO = Stuff We Don't Agree On.
Includes entries like the famous "Defiant Length".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Regarding the Picard/Dougherty conversation once again, with what we know from Enterprise, could the "bunch of thugs" still refer to the Romulans? The visual evidence of all the Romulan power in "Minefield" clearly supersedes this remark. The assertion that they didn't have warp drive would be just like naming a whole civilization "thugs" -- propaganda. I wonder if Starfleet's history lessons are that bad.
Agreed, the quote, specifically from Insurrection were:
quote: PICARD Our "partners" are nothing more than petty thugs.
DOUGHERTY (dismissing that) On Earth, petroleum once turned petty thugs into world leaders. Warp drive transformed a bunch of Romulan thugs into an empire. We can handle the Son'a, I'm not worried about that...
PICARD Someone probably said the same thing about the Romulans a century ago.
...which would seem to answer your 'thug' question.
As far as anything else in question...just because Picard said "a century ago" in a conversation doesnt mean that that was when they got it, especially when he so vaguely puts it as "someone probably said"...
I think if you look at the quote again, Picard may simply be referring to the fact that the Romulans were not much of a threat...even with warp drive until about a century ago...when all of the events that took place between TOS and the Tomed Incident occured, a period when the Romulans became obviously more aggressive. They very well could have had warp drive all along, it just seems that no one was really concerned (possibly because of a Treaty) with those 'petty thugs' until they started to once again become a threat in the mid/late-23rd century.
Also, hasn't this topic been discussed to death yet? Considering how much we have talked about this in the last few months ( February ) and years ( March '99 )...( October '99 )...( March '00 )...(December '01)...among many many more....wouldn't it just be easier to read over those again, rather than cough up the same phlegm like this every few months??
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I *see* what you're getting at... PHLEGM!
no really - I see - a century ago is when they became really nasty - Tomed...
It can be constued that way - for continuity's sake but the real flow of the words and then scene has Picard meaning Rommies getting the warp drive tech a century before - turning thugs into an empire (of thugs).
A sloppy attempt at continuity... they couldd have just said "The Breen" or something.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Then again, there is always the othe ranswer, that they got warp drive from the Klingon treaty and before that, they used a different approach to FTL travel. Ont eh other tenticle, arn't there sources that say that the Klings (TOS era) used Graff units, instead of warp drive?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One should note that Dougherty is clearly arguing that Arabs*=World Leaders => Good Thing (as compared to Arabs=Petty Thugs), and Romulans=Empire => Good Thing. In sequitur, he seems to be arguing that Son'a=Something Greater Than Thugs => Good Thing, too. Otherwise, his tirade would do little to further his cause.
So it would appear he actually advocates the Romulan acquisition of warp drive as a good thing. It somehow allows the Feds to "handle" the Romulans better, in Dougherty's logic. This would be an odd argument if the introduction of warp launched the Romulan war against Earth - both because Romulan War =! Good Thing and because the thugness (or any other aspect) of the Romulans would not have been known to the Earthlings before the war.
It would be less odd if the introduction of warp did happen after the war, though. Which would necessarily place it at TOS (or later) and thus at the "century before" timepoint that Picard speaks of, right? The emergence of the Romulans from their Zone, and the existence of close ties by ST6:TUC, would be the "handling" Dougherty refers to. And whatever soured the relations later on, perhaps this Tomed thing, would be what Picard is reminding him of.
Timo Saloniemi
*) Of course, Doughtery could also be speaking of something like Rockefeller or the Russian mafia here...
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