I am watching Samaritan Snare and all of the sudden Wes says "And this was before the Klingons joined the Federation." What the... Someone explain, my brains are about to explode. Early TNG did seem to indicate that the Federation and Klingons are a lot closer than what was later to be [During the first episode with the Klingons that old gizer Captain, who invited Worf to join when his tour with the Enterprise was up, seemed to indicate that the Klingon's took some que from the Federation]. However, I always suspected that during early TNG the Klingons had no choice but let the Federation take a lead role, but eventually built up their own power militarily/politically/etc. But joined the Federation??? No way...
And please, I know the tendancy... don't bash Wes.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
In the background of the Klingon bridge seen in "Heart of Glory" are both Klingon and Federation banners. I suspect this is something that was Rethought. Perhaps under the influence of Ron Moore?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Were this LaForge speaking, it would be easily attributed to his weird sense of humor. "Before the Klingons joined the Federation" could be a 24th century expression similar to "When the hell freezes over" or "When pigs fly", except applying to the past ("Suuuuure that happened, sir. Yessir. Right. It did.")
Alternately, the Klingons might hsve joined. For a day. Until it was *mutually* found that it was a phenomenally bad idea.
Apart from that, it would only be natural for the Klingons to have joined the UFP, else how come Worf? It's a good thing the idea was dropped, though. And this dialogue snippet is the only real contradiction - the UFP sigil in "Heart of Glory" could be there for this prisoner retrieval mission only, perhaps a sign that this vessel is permitted to operate in UFP space. (Or Romulan space, since the episode took place in "the Neutral Zone", and the Romulan NZ was the only one left at that point!)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye "joined" as in "came around to our way of thinking". I know deep in my heart that the Klingons "joined" with a race of symbiotic horseshoe crabs prior to TMP.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
And didn't the UFP-President in TUC speak about the assimilation of the Klingon Empire?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
My understanding has always been that the Klingons didn't become members of the UFP, but partners. Basically, they formed an alliance of some sort in which they could enter the UFP w/o it being a declaration of war. I'm sure there were a great many more details than that, but that seems to be the gist of the concern here. There's too much canonical evidence to refute that, IMO, and I think that what Wes said wasn't meant to be taken 100% literally that the Klingon's are now members of the Federation. More of a "throwaway" line.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Shouldn't this fall under 'General Trek', not 'Starships & Technology'? Anyway, just to put a face on this topic here is evidence spoken of:
This is obviously from "Heart of Glory". Despite the two symbols of the Klingon Empire and the UFP, Geordi did say something like "hello stranger" like he was in awe of seeing the battlecruiser.
Taken from "Samaritan Snare" in the conversation between Picard and Wes on their way to SB 515. Picard was talking about the events that lead up to his accident at Starbase Farspace Earnhart it was at this point the question was asked in reference to the time-frame of Picards 'green'-years.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I concur with Griff's interpretation of this dialog. Keep in mind that this episode was aired during the second season of TNG, and I imagine that the writing staff and producers hadn't worked out the particulars or the extent of the alliance between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire. Although I must say that when the episodes "Heart of Glory" and "Samaritin Snare" appeared in 1987 and 1988, I interpreted them to imply that their was much greater co-operation between the Federation and the Klingon Empire than was revealed in later episodes, and that the Klingon were in the process of giving up their warrior ways and embracing the more "enlightened" philosophy of the Federation. The FASA roleplaying materials written at the time implied that there was a technological exchange going on as well during this period in which Klingon ships were using Federation propolsion technology. A picture of a Klingon Imperial warship, er a Klingon Defense Forces ship, with Excelsior-class nacelles comes to my mind. The books also implied that there was greater political co-operation going on as well. I remember that at the time, some of my friends were thinking that the Klingon Empire would eventually be absorbed into the United Federation of Planets in later episodes of TNG.
I think that the producers changed their minds to the extent of the alliance between the UFP and the Klingons in later seasons and stories. Probably the Star Trek: The Next Generation scholars out there would have a better idea of why and when this changed and who was responsible.
Its one of those many story thread and developement issues we must interpret as viewers. Which interpretation has the greatest quantity of canon evidence supporting it?
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I concur with Griff's interpretation of this dialog. Keep in mind that this episode was aired during the second season of TNG, and I imagine that the writing staff and producers hadn't worked out the particulars or the extent of the alliance between the United Federation of Planets and the Klingon Empire. Although I must say that when the episodes "Heart of Glory" and "Samaritin Snare" appeared in 1987 and 1988, I interpreted them to imply that their was much greater co-operation between the Federation and the Klingon Empire than was revealed in later episodes, and that the Klingon were in the process of giving up their warrior ways and embracing the more "enlightened" philosophy of the Federation. The FASA roleplaying materials written at the time implied that there was a technological exchange going on as well during this period in which Klingon ships were using Federation propolsion technology. A picture of a Klingon Imperial warship, er a Klingon Defense Forces ship, with Excelsior-class nacelles comes to my mind. The books also implied that there was greater political co-operation going on as well. I remember that at the time, some of my friends were thinking that the Klingon Empire would eventually be absorbed into the United Federation of Planets in later episodes of TNG.
I think that the producers changed their minds to the extent of the alliance between the UFP and the Klingons in later seasons and stories. Probably the Star Trek: The Next Generation scholars out there would have a better idea of why and when this changed and who was responsible.
Its one of those many story thread and developement issues we must interpret as viewers. Which interpretation has the greatest quantity of canon evidence supporting it?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Given the later established facts that the Klingon Empire is not a part of the Federation, I have never had a problem with interpreting the Boy's line to mean "Is this before the Klingons and the Federation became allies." Picard obviously knew what Wesley meant, or he would have corrected him.
During TNG's season 2, the Federation and the Empire were under the Khitomer Accords, which formed the Alliance between the two powers. Gowron rescinded this agreement when the Klingon/Federation schirmishes started during DS9's run. It was then reinstated later.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
At latest since "Reunion" and more clearly even in "Redemption" we know that the Klingons did not join the Federation. So probably the best interpretation is that Wesley said some crap, and Picard politely overlooked that.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I had the impression that the UFP and the Klingon empire had formed a commonwealth. In the late 60s, Isreal and Egypt formed a commonwealth, that lasted for a year or two. Later, they where on opposite sides again.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The watershed Wesley and Jean-Luc would be speaking of could be a result of the E-C incident in 2344. That would be safely before Wesley's birth, making the issue a bit vague for him. Especially since it's vague for pretty much everybody, as Starfleet supposedly never learned the whole story of Narendra III.
To explain the priceless face of Picard when he answers the question...
Wesley would have grown in a world where Klingons were considered allies, and would only know of the martial past from history books. Picard would then be happily surprised when Wesley remembers this different era at all - it makes him feel less of a fossil.
Alternately, due to the circumstances of Narendra III, only Klingons would really know why they suddenly became so cordial in the 2340s. There'd thus be a lot of uncertainty and disagreement about their devotion to the new alliance. Picard might then be happily surprised when Wesley speaks of it as a "joining", when most of the youth of his time are fearful or indifferent of Klingons, and never use that nice a word.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well, the Klingons did join the Federation.. they joined them in an alliance.. Wesley's comment was just bad word choice referring to what we know happened.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
In the late 60s, Isreal and Egypt formed a commonwealth, that lasted for a year or two. Later, they where on opposite sides again.
Are you sure you're not thinking of Syria?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Actually, Picard's face at that point is due to the fact that he's eating a sandwich while talking to Wes and is talking with his mouth full. No BS -- watch the episode.
