I recall Kyle (Transporter Technician) giving Cptn. Christopher some selection cards, which when stuck in a wall slot resulted in Chicken Soup being 'delivered'. I was never sure whether it was pre-prepared, frozen and simply being thawed, cooked and delivered, or whether it was being synthesized when requested.
I would think the former, since the tribbles which arrived with Kirk's chicken sandwich would hardly have been munching on raw replicator stock - nor would they have survived long in a replicator.
Also, in 'The Undiscovered Country' we see a rather busy galley - and food being prepared. This would reinforce the idea that food is cooked and stored, rather than synthesized.
Comment?
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
All depends on what you want to belive.
In our Trek roll-playing game... I established that replicator tech was created from Genisis technology, therefore not avalible during TOS.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
my mind was set on the existence of TOS replicators at an early age, the first Trek computer game i got was "The Promethean Prophecy," it stated that the Enterprise's food synthesizer raw material was contaminated by coolant, they needed to find food.
My theorem i had before even fits the facts of the post-Enterprise Trek universe.. basically, after seeing the galley in ST6 and hearing the 'no replicator' comments in "Flashback" i formed the opinion that the NCC-1701 depended on food synthesizers.. machines that used raw material, protein and carbohydrates, prehaps, and synthesized foodstuffs from them. These primitive replicator analogues could not synthesize hot food, nor combine different types of food.. basically, they could 'replicate' flour and sugar and eggs, but they could not produce a baked cake.. they needed to synthesize (or replicate) the food, because the raw stock was probably inedible or unpleasing as food, so it was synthesized into an ingredient and then it fell to the galley and chefs to cook the ingredients into meals.
i think this theme probably applies to both the NX-01 and the NCC-1701.. their synthesizers can make piles of imitation chicken, beans, and flour, it takes the galley and Mr Chef to make them into bread and cuts for my chicken salad sandwich and coffee.
thats my theory anyway, it fits the facts...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
My thinking is that the food on the E-nil & E-A is a combination of synthesized foods made from a raw and unprocessed food base, probably based on textures wheat husks (like what us vegetarians eat ). There would probably be a limited amount of fresh food and I doubt that there would be any left after a few years in space without re-supply, but I'm sure there's some refrigerated units on most large ships. The galley we saw was probably responsible for preparing the slightly more elaborate meals that we saw appearing in the slots, since the set in ST:VI was designed with a set of lift tubes. While I'm sure the simple stuff like chicken soup is made automatically by machines, there is still a staff in the galley to deliver it from the preparation unit to the lift tube. Which is a logical practice since it frees the mess of the noise and crowd of waiters/porters and allows it do double as a recreation room.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I'm not sure about this but i think it's mentioned in the TNG Tech manual somewhere that they didn't appear to have replicator technology in the TOS era. I think it might be one of the asides written by Rick Sternbach or Mike Okuda, and it seems they're of the same opinion as everyone else here, that they have some kind of basic synth tech or protein resequencer that can alter certain base materials into slightly more complex materials. Nowhere in TOS does there appear to be a replicator as we know it from TNG, just advance recycling technology.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
"Flashback" from Voyager actually said outright that there were no replicators in the TOS era.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Thanks. I see there is a general consensus - rare in Flare: (?)
- Freezers for complex prepared foods - Vats of raw stocks (amino acids and carbohydrates) for resequencers - Resequencers - Galley with staff for cooking resequenced/recycled items into prepared foodstuffs - Delivery System to Lounges/Mess Halls
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
of course, ENT is probably going to be fitted with rep;licators nxt year, destroying all semblance of sense this makes.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
About the delivery system . . .
Unless they were doing what Kirk referred to as "intra-ship beaming" (and its implied that its a crazy idea*), then I'm not sure what delivery system would be sufficiently fast to allow for the delivery times we've seen.
(Of course, given Enterprise's fastness and looseness in matters technological, I'm sure we'll have the crew just beaming from their quarters to their stations next season.)
The mess halls I'm not so concerned about . . . one would reasonably suppose that the food preparation equipment was nearby. What I'm mainly thinking of would be the food slot in the transporter room, as seen in "Assignment: Earth"[TOS2].
Unless that transporter room just happened to be extremely close to the food synthesis doohickeys, I don't see how the old idea of a microelevator system would work. (Besides which, unless it employed some hardcore inertial dampeners or high-g gravity generators, one would expect such a system to involve a lot of spilled drinks.)
I therefore think that the food is synthesized right there at the food slot, with the necessary materials either piped to the location when the proper tape for the order is inserted, or else the materials are just generally available in advance (piped in or filled by a crewman with a tank of the stuff).
And, of course, they also have a proper galley aboard, or at least did during "Charlie X"[TOS1], when the galley reported that they'd put "meatloaf in the ovens", and (thanks to Charlie) the meatloaf was replaced by real turkeys. On the other hand, Kirk did identify the meatloaf as being synthetic earlier in the episode. At a minimum, we know they've got ovens.
The plates and cups could be organic, created at the same time as the order . . . but the forks, which generally appeared metallic as I recall, might suggest that the plates and cups (and forks) are dispensed and washed or something. I say that because I somehow doubt they'd have a dedicated silverware resequencer.
_______________________ * "Day of the Dove"[TOS3] transcript from www.voyager.cz:
"We can't get through the Klingon defenses in time unless-- Spock. Intraship beaming. From one section to another, it's possible? It has rarely been done because of the danger involved. Pinpoint accuracy is required. If the transporter should materialize inside a solid object, a deck or wall-- Even if it could work, she may be leading you into a trap. We're all in a trap. This is the only way out."
There's also another data point from "Day of the Dove" . . . Kirk says "Program the food synthesizer to accommodate our guests." The guests were Klingon.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
We're more or less in consesus... I'm gonna go buy a lotto ticket.
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: I therefore think that the food is synthesized right there at the food slot, with the necessary materials either piped to the location when the proper tape for the order is inserted, or else the materials are just generally available in advance (piped in or filled by a crewman with a tank of the stuff).
I don't think this has been pointed out yet, but could a lot of the food just be freezed-dried, add water variety? Sure, they could be prepared onboard, but they are put through the FD process to make it easier to pipe them around. Once they reach where they need to go, just add hot water. Or just heat, if they're frozen, kinda like "Shudderpod One". Er, I meant Shuttlepod. The FD process is extremely common today, and the taste of the stuff is always improving, so I think this would be a good explaination.
Chicken soup is a bad measurement for whether replication technology exists or not, anyways. I get mine in powdered form, most of the time.
One question though... What exactly can the protein resquencers imitate? Taste is a given, but can they imitate texture? Shape? Does resquenced chicken breasts realy look like chicken breasts, or is it just one giant 50 cm by 50cm by 5 cm slab of meat-like substance? How well does it imitate tastes? Does everything really taste like chicken, now? Remember, people were still complaining about replicated food's taste in the 24th Century, and that represented an improvement in catering technology.
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I would say that at the NX-01/TOS level of technology, the synthesizer can approximate a block of raw meat (or potato) incluing texture - but it is up to the chef to cook it (with spices etc.) to create a meal. Therefore, synthesizing is done in wholesale batches - say enough for the ship's complement for a day.
One could program the synthesizer for raw Torg instead. Or carrots.
One would need a vat(s) for amino acids (the base stock of proteins - which would indeed require sequencing to create various programmed proteins.
The resequencer also takes wastes and breaks it down into the amino acids and basic carbohydrates?
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Regarding delivery systems:
I do like the mini-turboshaft system. built-in inertial dampers (available in that era) would handle the sloshing danger.
Don't worry too much about the time for delivery. The long turboelevator rides were a plot device, so passengers would have time enough to kvetch. There were probably a few off-screen to on-camera trips which would seem rather sudden if we timed each episode. Besides, why couldn't a materiel-only turbo-delivery system be faster than one with live-passenger safety systems?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Especially if the galley was located, say directly below the mess hall? That would allow for very fast delivery indeed.
If course assuming that the mess is in the saucer section, towards the rim then they can't be much further apart than that, assuming those lifts only go straight up and down.
I agree with the idea that the galley staff would prepare batches of meals ready to super-microwave (presumably they have something similar yet quicker and more effective) and at the end of the day they simply recycle what is not eaten back into the protein vats.
This may or may not have any bearing on the discussion, but I recall there being a mention of "food concentrates" in "Charlie X", I think it concentred the transport that crashed (not the Antares). That could be a possible term for the generic food mass or then it might just mean emergency rations.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Of course, it's also possible that the wall w/ the food slots on it is shared by the galley and the mess hall, and the slots open on both sides. The food just goes in one side of the wall and comes out the other.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
There was a replicator like thing in Kirk's quarters in ST VI though. Although it almost certainly there because of set reuse, it still had plates in it.
And ST VI had bunk rooms in it, so there was clearly something odd going on with the Enterprise-A in that movie.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
intraship transport might be dangerous between a transporter and an open area, but maybe not a transporter and a transporter [which would be inside the food slot]. And maybe it was only dangerous if sent as a transmission like the matter stream. If instead there were transporter emitters [like there are on the hull of the ship] inside of the food slots with cables leading back to the galley where there was a true transporter.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also, mucking up a food transport is not as dangerous as mucking up a person transport.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Tell that to your stomach.
I think involving transporters technology in the food slots is more than a little unnecessary and it makes the slots just a little too close to being replicators for my liking.
A short, vertical tube that can carry food up one or two decks in half a second is explanation enough for me, even in the 23rd century antigravity technology seams to be commonplace. Especially when you consider than some of those slots might just be simple vending machines that deliver some of the more simple things like soup and beverages.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
You thought tomatoes could act rotten before . . . just wait till they get transporter psychosis!
So, we have three concepts of delivery:
1. Closed-circuit transporter . . . advantages would be rapid delivery after preparation, as has been seen. Disadvantages would be what would seem to be a ridiculous cost for the TOS era, and the implication that such a thing is not done. 1a. But, the "Enterprise Effect" will no doubt lessen that disadvantage over the next few seasons. 1b. It would also work nicely for the tribbles on Kirk's plate, which would've been at the prep location and inadvertently brought along. 1c. No problems with the food slots in the transporter room.
2. Dedicated mini-turboshafts . . . advantages include the possibility of fairly rapid delivery if the dispensers are located close to the origin point. Disadvantages include the space requirement of having food shafts running all around the ship, and the need for high levels of inertial dampening. One would also wonder just how hot food stays hot if its flying around the ship like a bat out of hell, since that would produce a stiff breeze. One would expect the turboshafts to be full of blown food giblets. 2a. If any person handled Kirk's food, they'd have probably had to have left the tribbles on it when it was sent. 2b. The presence of food slots in the transporter room (of all places) argues for the requirement of food slots in all sorts of odd places, unless that was some sort of special-purpose transporter room. If not, though, then the food shafts would have been running all over the place.
3. None . . . if a room has a food slot, then that's where preparation takes place. The distribution requirements would then just be the food/protein stock to be used, which could be piped or moved more efficiently than whole meals or than by beaming things around all throughout the ship. 3a. The tribble infestation could quite easily have gotten them into the food/protein stock of the ship, meaning they "dropped in" to Kirk's meal as it was being prepared, or something similar. On the other hand, I'd imagine they'd have had to simply be in the slot chamber already, since I doubt a protein resequencer sort of device would avoid picking apart a tribble. 3b. The food slots in that transporter room would imply that there was a great deal of totally unrelated machinery right there in the wall, which seems strange. On the other hand, the NX-01 transporter seems to just be a hole in the wall of a corridor.
Though high-tech is cool, I'm just not comfy with the presumption of a closed-circuit transporter system . . . seems too high-tech for the era, not to mention power-prohibitive. Besides, it would just be the most Rube Goldberg method of food delivery available. (Not to mention the fact that the food slots wouldn't need doors if the food was beaming in.)
I'd thus aim for a low-tech solution, something not involving dematerialization. But, the requirements of the mini-turboshaft system rapidly become as complicated as the transporter, what with all the inertial dampening, wind control, and so on . . . but it would work well in situations where they're just running it up one or two levels from a galley or resequencer. But, it has to get to transporter rooms and other strange places, too, if that's the only system.
So, to my mind, the best catch-all system would be the notion that the device which prepares the food is right there in the wall with the food slot. The tech level required is minimal, the travel time is non-existent, and all it requires might be a little extra piping on a ship which already had pipes that went nowhere and did nothing anyway. Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
The delivery tube system seem best to me - given the perfection of the interial damper.
The breeze problem is easily addressed - simply have the food travel within a 'box' within the tube - the inner door of the box opens linked with the outer doors of the food slot 9 much like turbolift doors).
Did Scotty say the tribbles had found their way into the food production system - or the food distribution system? I can see how they might hitch a ride inside a closed 'food box' - they might even be inside it prior to the automated system placing Kirk's platter insode.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Treknophyle: The delivery tube system seem best to me - given the perfection of the interial damper.
Seems like an awful waste of technology. It would be akin to Coca-Cola putting a plant in every city and distributing its drinks to restaurants via specially-constructed subway tunnels, instead of just dropping off the concentrate from various locations and letting the restaurant mix it themselves. And remember that that's per glass, with ice (or without if so ordered).
quote:The breeze problem is easily addressed - simply have the food travel within a 'box' within the tube - the inner door of the box opens linked with the outer doors of the food slot 9 much like turbolift doors).
True enough, but that is yet another complication to an already-painfully-complicated system.
quote:Did Scotty say the tribbles had found their way into the food production system - or the food distribution system?
The transcript from "Star Trek Sickbay" . . . the characters aren't labelled, but we're dorks and remember.
***************************************** My chicken sandwich and coffee. This is my chicken sandwich and coffee. Fascinating. I want these off the ship. I don't care if it takes every man we've got. They're into the machinery, all right. They're probably in all the other food processors, too. How? Probably through one of the air vents. Captain, there are vents of that type on the space station. And in the storage compartments. ********************************************
Thanks for bringing that up . . . note his use of the term "processor". Though that still leaves the elevator idea some minor wiggle room (multiple facilities around the ship doing the processing, each having its own inertial-dampened mini-turboshafts to the locations it serves, with its own supply of boxes), I'd think it more likely that Scotty was referring to the food slot as that which does the processing.
I hereby invoke Occam. Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
But it's WAY too early for replicator technology - which is what a 'processor' would be under this example. And the NCC-1701-A wouldn't have a kitchen!
Occam! Occam!
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Treknophyle: But it's WAY too early for replicator technology - which is what a 'processor' would be under this example.
Uhhhhhhh, why would "food processor" suddenly transform and transmogrify itself into meaning "replicator" in that context?
quote:And the NCC-1701-A wouldn't have a kitchen!
Why not? Having food processors, or even replicators, does not eliminate the need or desire for a proper kitchen. That way, the crew can enjoy special meals as required, or the officers can enjoy better food, or what-have-you.
Even when life was good aboard Voyager and the replicators were spitting out stuff left and right, Neelix had his kitchen and people ate there . . . sometimes even voluntarily, if even out of morbid curiosity.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Remember it was always ascertained by various different characters that replicated food just WASN'T as good as real-cooked food. Sisko is one. Keiko another. Scotty about Synthehol, Aladir Jarok about something, Picard about something else. Must have been ok for tea though!
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I get mine in powdered form, most of the time.