Going back to the Motion Picture blueprints, both the refit Enterprise and the K'tinga class have cloaking devices. Makes sense if the Feds got a hold of the cloaking device in the Enterprise Incident, but whay didn't they use it in any of the later movies?
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I've always thought that the "cloaking/stasis generator" as mentioned in those David Kimble prints was more of a "stealth package" - something along the lines of ECM for starships, if you will - not a true cloaking device. Basically, those systems would make it harder for anyone to get sensors or weapons lock on the ship, especially if they were of lower technological level than "modern" Star Fleet.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And what blueprints might these be? Pre-production sketches? Unofficial fandom drawings? Either way, they're not worth squat.
Sure, some kind of ECM is reasonable -- but we've NEVER seen something like that in use on a Starfleet ship before, IIRC. (I know; doesn't mean it's not there... but you'd think they'd have used it at one point or another after all these years.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Although interestingly (or not), it is mentioned that the Enterprise has a cloaking device in several of the novelisations of the first 6 Star Trek films. The Enterprise-A uses it as it's flying towards Kitomer in ST VI (and then turns it off when they arrive, with hopes of drawing out Chang's BOP), and it's mentioned at the beginning of the ST V novelisation that the cloak isn't working yet. Were these comments in the original scrips that Dillard was working from, or did he add them himself?
Posted by Sargon (Member # 1090) on :
quote: And what blueprints might these be? Pre-production sketches? Unofficial fandom drawings? Either way, they're not worth squat.
Actually, they are the Official Paramount Pictures approved blueprints from when ST:TMP was released. I think they are worth more than squat.
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
Roddenberry said that the only canon things are MOvies and eps and scripts. Wasn't the Treaty of Algeron the treaty that prevented UFP from using cloaking devices?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sargon: Actually, they are the Official Paramount Pictures approved blueprints from when ST:TMP was released. I think they are worth more than squat.
So? Last I heard, Paramount also officially approved "Enterprise." Doesn't mean that's canon, either.
I know, I'm being difficult. But in all seriousness, Roddenberry himself stated at one point that Starfleet ships shouldn't have cloaking devices. I wish I had a specific citation for you (aside from the second- or third-hand Encyclopedia attribution).
Anyway, if the Enterprise-A had a cloaking device, why wouldn't they have used it -- not only while heading towards Khitomer (as someone above hinted in the novelization) -- but also while they were heading into Klingon space towards Rura Penthe? We could've avoided that silly translation scene on the Bridge, with everyone flipping through books to figure out how to say "carrying supplies and things" in Klingon.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That is actually mentioned in the novelisation. The explanation given is that the cloak is only really effective with ship sensors. Both sides have monitoring stations up which can detect cloaked ships, to a certain degree.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Roddenberry, himself, also said that ST6 wasn't canon either....which doesnt say much about the selectiveness of what is and isnot canon.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Only certain aspects of ST VI. But then he also said he loved the film. Crazy.
He said ST V wasn't canon.
But that really doesn't matter. You can't come up with your own definitions of what is or is not canon. TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and the motion pictures are all canon. Nothing else is. Some stuff is "semi-canon", but that can be dropped as easily as, say, TAS.
Posted by blssdwlf (Member # 1024) on :
Wasn't there some kind of jamming or ecm at work in the DS9 episode with the Valiant? Something about them having to get almost point-blank before they could accurately target their torpedo?
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: And what blueprints might these be? Pre-production sketches? Unofficial fandom drawings? Either way, they're not worth squat.
Sure, some kind of ECM is reasonable -- but we've NEVER seen something like that in use on a Starfleet ship before, IIRC. (I know; doesn't mean it's not there... but you'd think they'd have used it at one point or another after all these years.)
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
The treaty was supposedly signed well after ST:6. IIRC it was after the Tomed Incident in 2311.
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
So, maybe it was the treaty that ended the Earth-Romulan war.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
After Star Trek VI. The Romulan War was in the 2150s. I think the Tomed Incident was indeed ended with the Treaty of Algeron. Hopefully, we'll find out in the Lost Era book that deals with the Incident.
We know Section 31 (and maybe some of Starfleet Intelligence's less Big Brother-y ships) have cloaking devices, and use them.
We know Federation research is continuing, albeit on the sneak, as with the Pegasus' phase-cloak.
--Jonah
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: And what blueprints might these be? Pre-production sketches? Unofficial fandom drawings? Either way, they're not worth squat.
As already mentioned, the officially licensed - and at the time approved by Gene Roddenberry himself - ST:TMP Blueprint set. Just because they've since been "de-canonized" by Paramount is what really doesn't mean nor worth a "squat", IMNSHO.
Anyhow, a lot of Treknology related works followed suit, to include the collective works of Star Fleet Printing Office, Star Station Aurora and Strategic Design, to name a few. I've never thought that this was meant to represent a real cloak, but more of a countermeasures device against certain levels of technology.
quote:Sure, some kind of ECM is reasonable -- but we've NEVER seen something like that in use on a Starfleet ship before, IIRC. (I know; doesn't mean it's not there... but you'd think they'd have used it at one point or another after all these years.)
And ECM isn't specifically mentioned in a great many movies and TV shows featuring military vehicles and set in modern times, yet we know that pretty much ALL U.S. military aircraft, ships and now a number of ground vehicles feature ECM packages. Does that mean they don't work unless we hear them mentioned or are specifically turned on by the characters in those shows...?
Besides, c'mon, man. It's only mentioned when it's needed for the plot. Just recognize it for what it is and move on w/life. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sargon:
quote: And what blueprints might these be? Pre-production sketches? Unofficial fandom drawings? Either way, they're not worth squat.
Actually, they are the Official Paramount Pictures approved blueprints from when ST:TMP was released. I think they are worth more than squat.
For what it's worth, Andy Probert told me he himself made up the labels for those blueprints. That's why the Klingon ship has Bolognium engine components. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
My pet theory about the Tomed incident is that it involved cloaked Federation ships being discovered in Romulan space, followed by a Romulan retaliation. I don't see why late 23rd century Starfleet couldn't have had at least some ships with cloaking devices. They certainly must have had the technology.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
^Makes sense to me! Maybe some Intel gathering ships? The FASA RPG attempted to explain the probe that gathered the images during the V'Ger Incident as being a small, cloaked drone, IIRC. Seems logical to me, anyhow. Even if you have no plans to invade your enemy, it's never a bad idea to keep tabs on their movements. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
The tech is there, of course. O'Brien couldn't have drawn up the specs from scratch in Call to Arms.
[ August 26, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
^^^^^^^^^He could have had access (via Worf, perhaps) to the blueprints from the Pegasus-cloak or from a Klingon cloaking device....
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: My pet theory about the Tomed incident is that it involved cloaked Federation ships being discovered in Romulan space, followed by a Romulan retaliation. I don't see why late 23rd century Starfleet couldn't have had at least some ships with cloaking devices. They certainly must have had the technology.
Oh, I certainly agree that they've got the technology, and had it for a while -- after all, Kirk himself got his hands on a fully functional example of the cloak.
I just don't think it's reasonable to believe that ALL of Starfleet's ships were equipped with cloaks like the Romulan navy (where apparently every single warbird *does* have one).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And remember that the Defiant had a Romulan cloaking device ON BOARD!
A Question: What if you were a race that had cloaking technology and wanted to join the Federation - would you be prevented from joining? Would you have to give up that technology?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The latter. With the Federation, it's always been a CHOICE not to have cloaking technology - they've proven ("Pegasus", "Call to Arms") that they can develop claoks fairly easily.
This is also the point where I tell you about how cool the "Tomed Incident" chapter of Unseen Frontier would have been. But since I can't, I'll stop here.
Mark
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: This is also the point where I tell you about how cool the "Tomed Incident" chapter of Unseen Frontier would have been. But since I can't, I'll stop here
Stop teasing us you bastard!!! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Mark, that was just plain mean. I'm sorry, but if you're not allowed to tell us anything, then just shut up, please!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The diplomates who signed that "we won't make cloaks" thing though really were the Worst Diplomats Ever.
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
They were probably desperate, though I couldn't imagine why. If they really really really wanted to end it, then they would have given it up like that *snaps*. I wonder what the Romulans lost in their negotiations.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It would have to be something pretty massive (or the Federation really was that on-the-ropes). Cloaking technology represents a huge technological advantage, as the Defiant proved over and over again.
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
Maybe the Romulans just revealed their doomsday device, used on Galorndan Core. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think it has more to do with the relatively extreme proximity of Romulus to Earth. Sure, maybe the Federation could have easily bested the Empire at the time. But could they do it before seeing their capital and core worlds decimated?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
...Which, if TPTB wanted to exploit it, would be another nice real-world parallel for the 2000s audiences. The Romulan Star Empire could be like North Korea, within striking distance of Seoul so that no matter how mighty an army goes against the North, its victory will be pyrrhic at best.
The "Lost Years" novels all sound really promising. Anybody read "Serpents Among the Ruins" yet?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
The impact would be more dangerous and important if the Romulans had just revealed their new WOMD. Then the Feds would get real serious about ending the war, especially due to the proximity of Earth to Romulus.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I just got "Serpents..." yesterday, and I'm about halfway through it right now.
David George's writing style is kind of heavy-handed in places, and the prologue is almost unreadable thanks to all his alliteration. Once it picks up, though, it turns into a pretty durn good story. Let me know if you want spoilers, and I'll start a new thread.
--Jonah
Posted by djewell (Member # 1111) on :
I wanted to buy it yesterday, but I was all out of money. My brother can be so cheap sometimes Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
You're 16. Get a job and stop moaning.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
*laughs and points* ha ha...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by djewell: They were probably desperate, though I couldn't imagine why. If they really really really wanted to end it, then they would have given it up like that *snaps*. I wonder what the Romulans lost in their negotiations.
Romulans have to wear 10 lb weights in those silly shoulderpads and sport Moe haircuts as long as the treaty is in effect.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Syzlak?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Finished "Serpents" last night. The reason given for the Treaty of Algeron is plausible enough, although the mechanism by which cloaks tie into it all is a bit convoluted.
George sure gets mileage out of the events. A more economical writer could tell the story with a third of the page count. And George trips on his cleverness once or twice - like when saying that Romulan ships are powered by quantum singularities. Sure, they might have been, even in 2311. But nobody in Starfleet ought to know that. Well, people like Harriman and Vaughn might. But not the entire E-B crew.
It warms the heart to see that George held the ST Star Charts in one hand while typing with the other, BTW. And he's not just copying: he added the whole Foxtrot thing, when the Charts only have Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Gamma, Delta and Epsilon... Clever boy.
One hell of a turn on the concept of the Tomed Incident, really. And frighteningly plausible, as long as we buy into the concept of Starfleet having James Bond style superagents capable of pulling that off.
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