Most of us probably are already familiar with the evacuation capabilities of the Galaxy-class starship, thanks to the TNG:TM's excellent and detailed specs on that subject. (For those not in the know: 15,000 people total, up to 1,250 people per hour, using all transporters and shuttlecraft.)
But as I was browsing one site about older TOS-era fandom ships this afternoon, I came across this very strange reference. Because it's from the description of the Mann class, I assume that it's a quote from the "Spaceflight Chronology."
quote:"...the largest spacelift in Federation history, where the over ten million inhabitants of Bayard's Planet were successfully evacuated."
What the heck? How could this kind of massive migration be possible, even in a not-quite-urgent time scale (say, a month before the planet's core completely disintegrates or whatever)? Even if there were a suitable Class-M planet only 5 light-years away (an optimistic assumption under some circumstances), that seems like a pretty massive undertaking!
If we started with a Galaxy-class starship as a baseline, here's what we'd get:
1.2 days, one-way travel at Warp 9 (TNG scale) over 5 light-years
12 hours to bring evacuees aboard, at 1,250 people per hour and 15,000 person limit
7.14 hours to deposit evacuees on receiving planet, at 2,100 people per hour (using one-way ship evacuation transporters at an additional 850 people per hour
That gives us a total round-trip figure of 3.2 days, for a single Galaxy-class starship.
But... what about the TOS era? Based on what we've seen in TOS, they required more people to run a smaller-sized ship. And based on FJ's deck plans (conveniently available online), there may not be as much space that can be set aside for evacuees. I'm going to go with the (IMO generous) assumption that a starship in Kirk's time could evacuate up to 7 times its crew complement (as opposed to the Galaxy's 15).
That means that a Constitution-class starship could evacuate up to 3,010 people per trip. Let's go back to those statistics I gave earlier, shall we?
3.6 days, one-way travel at Warp 8 (TOS scale) over 5 light-years
1.9 hours to bring evacuees aboard, at 1,560 people per hour and 3,010 person limit **
Less than one hour to deposit evacuees on receiving planet (using one-way ship evacuation transporters at an additional 3,960 people per hour
**Assumptions:
The ship's four 6-pad personnel transporters can handle one transport load every minute, for a total of 1,440 people per hour.
The ship's 6 shuttlecraft can each carry an overload of 10 people at a time, making a round trip in 30 minutes, for a total of 120 people per hour.
The three 22-person one-way evacuation transporters can handle a load every minute, for a total of 3,960 people per hour.
That gives us a round-trip figure of approximately 3.75 days for a single Constitution-class starship. But, considering the Constitution's much lower evac capacity, it would take 5 trips to match a Galaxy's capabilities.
Then I remembered FJ's Ptolemy-class tug with the double passenger pods. In that configuration, it would have an evac capacity of 8,540 people (3,500 in each pod, and 1,540 in the Ptolemy itself), and they could move an additional 4,320 people per hour with each pod's six independent personnel transporters. That would require 1.35 hours to beam everyone up (no shuttlecraft available), and again less than an hour to beam everyone down (since the evac transporters can again be employed, and there's access between each of the pods and the tug).
So, a Ptolemy so configured would only require 2 round trips to match a Galaxy's capabilities. With the same round-trip figure of 3.75 days (assuming that a Ptolemy can maintain Warp 8 with two overloaded transport containers, but just accept that for the moment) would mean 7.5 days to move 17,080 people.
Now, if we're moving a total of 10 million people, that will still require a total of 589 separate runs, back and forth to move everyone! Because I have nothing else to do on this lazy Sunday afternoon, I'm going to work out the various combinations of ships:
Time Required to Evacuate 10 Milllion People
Ships # Runs Total Days
1 589 2209 d (6.05 y) 2 294.5 1104 d (3.02 y) 3 196.33 736.25 d (2.02 y) 4 147.5 552.2 d (1.51 y) 5 117.8 441.75 d (1.21 y) 6 98.17 368 d (1.01 y) 7 84.14 315 d (10.5 mo) 8 73.625 276 d (9.20 mo) 9 65.44 245 d (8.17 mo) 10 58.9 221 d (7.36 mo)
Now, I think we can all agree that having the Ptolemys perform the evacuation may be extremely unlikely under certain circumstances. And that doesn't even account for the fact that this 10-million-person evacuation probably took place in the 2210's or so, almost fifty years before the Ptolemy came into service. Therefore, even with a whole raftload of ships, even if they had similar evacuation capacities and warp speed capabilities, it would take an incredibly long time to complete that evacuation!
Does anyone have any more about this "Bayard's Planet" incident they were talking about? I ran a quick search on Google, and the only reference I found was in Alex Rosenzweig's non-canon timeline, which gives a date of 2197 and attributes the reason for evacuation to a supernova shockwave (a real-life threat), which certainly could give the ships sufficient time to evacuate. But, conversely, the ships would need to take the evacuees a LOT farther away to escape the supernova's shockwave. (Confusingly, that timeline also says that the Zakdorn had to evacuate their homeworld, which had to have had a MUCH bigger population than just ten million! Yeesh, that's why I'm not fond of most fandom works... except the ones I like, of course. )
At any rate, this seems like a case of sci-fi hyperbole taken to an illogical extreme. Or am I just screwing up my calculations? Alternative opinions would be appreciated.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
They only managed to get 2 babies and a dog off Krypton. Oh and a shunken city, perhaps they shrank all the inhabitants.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
they used Rigellian ships to help.. they were huge..
fandom helps itself out
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Possibly the planet in question had a fleet of commercial star craft of its own. Converted ore haulers, private cargo vessels, even research ships. They might also have used tractor beams to haul away habitat type life boats made from cargo containers. Also alien allies from nearby systems could have lent a hand. I don't think the Federation Fleet in one sector could do the job by itself but their powerfull ships, including the tugs and cargo vessels, could help by hauling away the container lifeboats and other interplanetary cargo craft. I'm not sure but I think as long as another vessel is within the Warp field it can be towed a Warp speed at least for a relativly short distance.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Little known fact: The inhabitants of Bayard's Planet were successfully evacuated because they were all the size of GI JOE figures (3.75" tall).
Another possibity is that several Mann class ships were used in tandem to transport the inhabitants to the nearest planet in that system (say as close as Mars to earth). At high warp speeds and using transporters, it could be done. It all depends on the timeframe, number of ships used, location of the nearest planet and he nature of the emergency. A asteroid could be detected months or years in advance for example. Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Damn all my G.I. joes are the Big ones.One foot tall. I guess I'll throw them away since they are out dated and too big for transporters.
They have that backward thumb to. They must be defective. All those uniforms and accessories will have to go also since they won't fit the late model Joes.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I think the big time waster in this situation is the 5-ly round trip to drop people off. The main thing is to get people off the planet. Once they are in space, they can be moved around much more easily.Once I got people off the surface, I put them someplace safe, perhaps a large space station or transport containers parked closer than 5 light years. Any natural phenom is not going to move faster than light speed, so putting everyone a light year away will give you plenty of time to get away later.
If I were moving 10 million people I'd use any many ships as I could find.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Hey Masao that is one very nice web site. I've seen it before. great information and pictures. Good job!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mann class ship names include: USS You The Mann USS Big Mann USS Superman
Ah, I can hear the cries of the people of Bayard's Planet now: "Save us Supermann!!!"
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mountain Man: Hey Masao that is one very nice web site. I've seen it before. great information and pictures. Good job!
Thanks. I aim to please.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
But there are lots of phenomena that can move faster than light in Trek. Rifts, nexii, giant space lemons...
Mark
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Agreed with Masao that round trips aren't the only way to calculate this. Just get the people off the surface. If the evacuation is going to take a year or more anyway, it would probably be best to *build* a lot of ships, each capable of the minimum speed needed to run from the Space Bogie and holding together for the duration of the evac trip, nothing more.
I thought the Ptolemies would be introduced in the 2220s already? Or the 2240s, if we want to maintain they were contemporary to the first Constitutions, and those in turn were launched when Okuda sez. In any case, I trust Vulcans and others would have comparable or superior vessels aplenty.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, the question would then be whether Starfleet can afford to divert so many ships, even for such a massive humanitarian mission.
I really don't think that anything other than a round trip would be practical, because that means so many more ships would be needed. And a space station just wouldn't be practical -- unless you conveniently had one positioned just in the right spot, there'd be no difference between it and a planet anyway. Besides, unless it were one of those big Spacedock-type stations, I sincerely doubt that it could handle such a huge influx of refugees.
I'm thinking about an obvious analogy, the Berlin Airlift of 1948-1949. Why was it considered one of the greatest movements of cargo in history? Probably not because of the actual volume of material moved (I'm not too familiar with the actual logistics, but compared to the shipping in World War II itself, probably not quite that much), but rather because of the length of time that it went on and the political reasons for its launch.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Put all those people into EVA suits, beam 'em into space, use the tractor beam to give them some velocity towards their destination and let starships pick 'em up them before they starve or asphixiate.
Kinda the sporty way to do it.
With top notch starship crews, you'd only lose mabye 50-60,000. No one'll even miss 'em! Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Put all those people into EVA suits, beam 'em into space, use the tractor beam to give them some velocity towards their destination and let starships pick 'em up them before they starve or asphixiate.
Kinda the sporty way to do it.
With top notch starship crews, you'd only lose mabye 50-60,000. No one'll even miss 'em!
I think we have a winner!!!
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
There's also the possibility of civilian vessels (passenger liners, transports, etc.) being requisitioned for the evac. It really does depend entirely on the timescale; the timeline mentioned by MinutiaeMan seems to imply it took place within a year. I suppose it would be possible, but the effort would have to be massive.
To be honest though, I'm entirely behind Jason's idea. 50-60,000 isn't really that much out of 10 million, is it?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
1. "It's 29,392,499,070,661.5 miles to Alpha Chicago, we got a full tank of deuterium, half a pack of rations, it's dark, and we're wearing spacesuits. Hit it."
2. Very nice work on the calcs. Transport time values could be augmented with what was observed during the emergency beam-out in "1100100101010-awthehellwithit"[TNG1] . . . I seem to recall very rapid beaming. Cargo bay transporter use for beaming out personnel confirmed in "Starship Mine"[TNG6].
3. In spite of the TM evac limit, I would think that a Galaxy Class starship should have greater capability, provided that comfort is not part of the equation. As per estimates by Bernd and myself on the actual floorspace of the GCS, they should have on the order of a million square meters of room (SCN link).
Giving everyone a generous ten square meters to play in would result in 100,000 beings throughout the ship.
The only issues would be in regards to life support and replicator usage. The latter could be minimized with rationing, or (if possible) trying to have everyone bring some grub along. Impact on the life support system would basically be in regards to the air scrubbers . . . though 100 times the standard amount of poop could present a problem. I can't imagine, though, that buckets are an unknown in the 24th Century.
4. Shuttlecraft evac limits are established in "The Ensigns of Command"[TNG3], wherein it would take over a month to remove 15,000 colonists by shuttlecraft.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
100,000 additional people might tax the engines a bit as well. Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I doubt "diverting of Starfleet resources" would be that much of an issue. It's a once-in-a-thousand-lifetimes thing anyway, not something Starfleet would be *expected* to be capable of handling ever again.
With an entire planet at stake like that, it wouldn't be that far-fetched to essentially build a second Starfleet, or even an organization larger than the then existing Starfleet, just for the purpose - and then dismantle it immediately afterwards. People down on the planet wouldn't be doing much else useful anyway; making them build ships for themselves would keep them from looting and pillaging, at any rate.
Starfleet's pre-existing starships would probably mainly be there to stop the looting, to control the traffic, to help with medical matters, to keep the people fed and clothed and in communication when the planetary infrastructures shut down. They'd probably move more stuff in than out.
Sending a few Manns to shuttle trivially small numbers of people out of the planet would not be worth the while (I think we discussed this in connection with the DS9 "Gateways" novel already). If the evacuation really hinged on the few thousands of seats on the Manns, then there would be no hope anyway, and the ships would be better used in euthanizing the population from orbit...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Well, why not use some type of stasis/sleeper pods, that would allow you to carry thousands of people with minimum effort? Stack them 10, 20, or 30 high in a cargo ship and all you have to worry about is power. Also it would allow you to store them for a period of time before shipping them out.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hunter: Well, why not use some type of stasis/sleeper pods, that would allow you to carry thousands of people with minimum effort? Stack them 10, 20, or 30 high in a cargo ship and all you have to worry about is power. Also it would allow you to store them for a period of time before shipping them out.
Yes, but where do you get thousands of stasis pods from? And moving a load of them into orbit would be even more difficult than moving people into orbit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just remember, if the logistics get to much to bear.... Call the Crystaline Entity.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or do it the Star Trek way, and move the entire planet.
Actually the Spaceflight Chronology explains a bit more about Bayards Planet. USS Endurance, Mann class, only supervised the evacuation, while the actual moving of people was done on what the book calls "superconvoys". These convoys could carry "a hundred and more" cargo containers at warp, "powered by linked configurations of warp tugs". They were refitted for life-support.
More on the superconvoys, powered by Provider class tugs:
quote: USS Muletrain Provider Class This was the lead ship for the warp superconvoys, the 100-kilometer cargo carriers that revolutionized interstellar industrial transport. Configured in 8-ship linked octagons at the head of the convoy, with 4-ship squares of booster tugs after each 10-container segment, and all controls subspace-radio synchronized, these superconvoys transported billions of kilograms per superconvoy
And apparently, these superconvoys can do Warp 2.
May have sounded reasonable in the Chronology's context, but it's a bit over-the-top for current Star Trek.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
And no doubt, if the matter of evacuating a whole planet (and not just one of those one-horse colonies of TNG/DS9 fame) arose in aired Trek, it would be called a "first" for dramatic reasons.
Which wouldn't actually be a problem wrt SFC if the matter arose in ENT...
Still, for all we know, something like the superconvoys may in fact be at work in Trek. The transports we've seen are laughably small for hauling low-buck-per-pound bulk stuff such as "ore", which nevertheless is being hauled somehow. Few of the TNG or DS9 storylines would have touched upon the superconvoys, really.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And the few that did, never took the opportunity to show them. "The Sound of Her Voice," for example, had the Defiant escorting a convoy.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
If memory serves, a convoy was shown in "Rules of Engagment", wasn't it? At least some of the ships, anyway.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: 100,000 additional people might tax the engines a bit as well.
Assuming that each person, plus a little food and a few possessions, weighs in at 200 pounds (90kg), then that's 0.090718474 metric tons per person.
Multiply that by 100,000 and you get 9071.8474 metric tons.
Voyager weighs in at 700,000 metric tons. If the Galaxy Class has a similar volume to mass ratio, then her mass would be 6,500,000 metric tons.
I don't think they'd really notice an extra 9,100. (Even bumping everyone up to 300lbs gives us only 13,600 metric tons.)
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Berlin Airlift, was a massive airlift, while the sealift was done with craft that could carry thousands of tons at a time the aircraft could only do a few tons each.
100 km long ship? hell you could make a bridge spanning the distance with the materials used to make the ships.....
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: making them build ships for themselves would keep them from looting and pillaging, at any rate.
Would people bother looting and pillaging if all they were allowed to take with them was the clothes on their backs and a backpack full of personal effects? I mean, in an evacuation they wouldn't people take grandma's credenza along.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Still, for all we know, something like the superconvoys may in fact be at work in Trek. The transports we've seen are laughably small for hauling low-buck-per-pound bulk stuff such as "ore", which nevertheless is being hauled somehow. Few of the TNG or DS9 storylines would have touched upon the superconvoys, really.
Timo Saloniemi
I alsay thought it was rather stupid to haul raw ore around anyway. I'd expect such starfaring civilizations to have mobile refineries (a la what the Nostromo was towing in Alien), which would process the raw material into more finished resources which then would be shipped to their destinations.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: Still, for all we know, something like the superconvoys may in fact be at work in Trek. The transports we've seen are laughably small for hauling low-buck-per-pound bulk stuff such as "ore", which nevertheless is being hauled somehow. Few of the TNG or DS9 storylines would have touched upon the superconvoys, really.
The problem with that is if you are hauling bulk you're going to haul it in the bulkiest way possible... thus the reason why supertankers haul oil instead of smaller vessels. It's economical. When you come up with this explanation you have to take that into account that such things should normally be hauled in the largest vessel possible.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Since the Kelvans are now our friends, why not ask them to turn everyone into those little dodecahedrons? That would save a lot of space and cut way down on life support requirements.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Yeah, but would YOU want to be turned into an elaborate sugar cube? Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
If I had to choose between cube-dom and getting flash-fried by my sun, I'd choose the cube.
You know, I think the Kelvans could go into business transporting people in cube form at low cost. if I could be Fedex'ed in cube form from the US to Japan for $30 rather than having to spend 14 hours and $1000 for a trip in economy class, I'd do it!
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Since the Kelvans are now our friends, why not ask them to turn everyone into those little dodecahedrons? That would save a lot of space and cut way down on life support requirements.
Another example of tech that just sort of disappears after its single use.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Since the Kelvans are now our friends, why not ask them to turn everyone into those little dodecahedrons? That would save a lot of space and cut way down on life support requirements.
So, your on the Federation transport hauling little dodecahedron passengers, and all of a sudden you feel tired and sit down on one of the boxes your hauling. You crushed Ensign Jones damn you! Now sweep her salty remains under the other boxes and move along like nothing happened. Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Be useful if any of the un-cubed passengers got space-sick!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Perhaps the First Federation has a spare giant spheres hanging around? Or they could politely ask Trelane's mum and dad for some help.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Despite occassional, extremely unfortunate, mishaps, dodecahedrons are statistically the safest form of transportation! In fact, the most dangerous part of the journey is driving down to the (conveniently located) dodecahedronization center!
--This message brought to you by the Milky Way Kelvan Dodecahedron Industry Council (MWKDIC)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: If I had to choose between cube-dom and getting flash-fried by my sun, I'd choose the cube.
You know, I think the Kelvans could go into business transporting people in cube form at low cost. if I could be Fedex'ed in cube form from the US to Japan for $30 rather than having to spend 14 hours and $1000 for a trip in economy class, I'd do it!
I've seen over a DOZEN packages lost and/or crushed by Fed-Ex over the past year but have never known someone that dies on a airplane. You go ahead: I'll enjoy overpriced booze and flirting with the stewardess from business class. Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Masao: Despite occassional, extremely unfortunate, mishaps, dodecahedrons are statistically the safest form of transportation! In fact, the most dangerous part of the journey is driving down to the (conveniently located) dodecahedronization center!
--This message brought to you by the Milky Way Kelvan Dodecahedron Industry Council (MWKDIC)
Oh, they've got a great lobbying team. Right up there with the Regional Organization for Acceptance of the Safety of Transporters (ROAST) and the Holodeck Entrapment is a Lie Project (HELP). Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Interesting tidbit here... I'm watching the rerun of "Half a Life," and Lwaxana Troi asks Dr. Timicin why they never just decided to evacuate the planet.
Now granted, Lwaxana isn't exactly the most technically knowledgeable person in the Star Trek universe...
However, even Dr. Timicin seemed to take the suggestion seriously, at least as a practical option; he did reject it, though, because no one wanted to leave their homeworld.
Assuming that the Kaelons had respectable spaceflight capability (and they did have warships that could offer a minor threat to the Enterprise), then they could probably manage such an evacuation, after all.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
I think a Galaxy saucer modified with landing legs and with most of it's scientific compliment and crew quarters removed would make an ideal evacuation platform.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
They were looking at some serious timescales with that Kaelon star, though, no? With disaster near when you measured time like glaciers do. I mean, it wasn't at risk of going out during the episode, as I recall.
But even with some temporal space to stretch in, I don't think you can move the population of any planet with Earthlike numbers without resorting to some wormhole-esque transportation scheme. Or even with one. The original post overlooks the fact that the planet's inhabitants aren't just sitting on their hands while all this is going on. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, our population gets a net gain of one person every nine seconds. And that's just in the United States. The total number of humans worldwide goes up by 2.3 every second.
So, anyway, I think Operation: Cheese It! will probably need to start with saturation bombing the planet with long-lasting airborne birth control drugs and possibly abortifactants, depending on how patient we are and whether or not we're space fascists with little regard for reproductive rights. Ah, details.
(For those worried about the opinions of angry libertarians with too much time on their hands, consider their review of The Phantom Menace, which includes the credibility-smashing line: "The Phantom Menace is a splendid, triumphant, inspiring movie".)
[ October 26, 2003, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Sol System ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: (For those worried about the opinions of angry libertarians with too much time on their hands, consider their review of The Phantom Menace, which includes the credibility-smashing line: "The Phantom Menace is a splendid, triumphant, inspiring movie".)
No way. That's like saying "Voyager's attention to plausable technical details is flawless." "Howard The Duck is George Lucas' best production" "Hayden Christensen is a great actor." "Mountain Man is sorely missed." 'Armageddon was a plausable story."
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
You hit the thumb everytime Jason, good job....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wait....you're "the librarian"? This whole thing is becoming a Caiser Sose thing before my very eyes.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, our population gets a net gain of one person every nine seconds. And that's just in the United States.
Hmm... considering that one of my profs claimed that without immigration we have zero growth rate, that's even more interesting. Assuming Dr. Garrett was right, of course.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I'd imagine they could construct some incredible long-range transporter, with like a fifty km wide dish at either end. Maybe. Could be shite. Can you daisy-chain transporters?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: According to the U.S. Census Bureau, our population gets a net gain of one person every nine seconds. And that's just in the United States.
Hmm... considering that one of my profs claimed that without immigration we have zero growth rate, that's even more interesting. Assuming Dr. Garrett was right, of course.
I've heard the same thing about the UK. Of course, it doesn't say where the one person is coming from. However...
Damn, I can't find my usual country statistics sites.
*looks*
Hmm. I've found figures ranging from 0.5% to 0.9%, however I have yet to find a web-site that I trust. Stupid computer that doesn't have my bookmarks. I used to have loads that compared world wide stuff, and other interesting facts that get your girlfriends. Yes. And the US Census site doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
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