I'm just trying to think of how many "Death Star" type weapons we've seen in Trek - weapons capable of destroyiong a planet completely. Can't think of too many off hand; let's see what we can come up with.
-Xindi sphere
-Species 8472 super bioweapon (surprisingly similar to the Xindi Death Star)
-Dominion protomatter bomb (indirectly, but same result)
Others?
Mark
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Trilithium (i.e. Generations)...albeit by destroying the star that a planet orbits
The Planetkiller from TOS
The Genesis Device, although its not really the intended effect
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
The Whale Probe could sorta destroy a planet...
That time weapon in VOY could in theory erase a planet from existence...
V'Ger could, in theory....
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I'm talking about weapons that can utterly destroy a planet - so the Genesis Device, the chronoship and whale probe are pretty much out. Soran's trilithium weapon and the TOS planetkiller are in, and I guess V'Ger counts... What would those thing have done? Digitized the planet like it did the Klingons and Epsilon IX?
Mark
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: I'm talking about weapons that can utterly destroy a planet - so the Genesis Device, the chronoship and whale probe are pretty much out. Soran's trilithium weapon and the TOS planetkiller are in, and I guess V'Ger counts... What would those thing have done? Digitized the planet like it did the Klingons and Epsilon IX?
Mark
Given that in one line of dialogue (in the Special Longer Version of TMP) about V'ger is...
SPOCK: Fascinating. That vessel is generating a forcefield greater than the radiation of Earth's sun.
...I'd guess V'ger could blow the crap out of Earth if it had wanted to. Hell in the original cut, its powerfield was described as over 82AUs in diameter, which is larger than the orbit of Pluto! That's a lotta power.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmmm. IIRC, didn't the Genesis device create a planet from a nebula, then the planet essentially self-destructed because it used protomatter or some such? Thus, one would expect that its effect on a pre-existing solar system would be less than beneficial.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:-Dominion protomatter bomb (indirectly, but same result)
Uh...the fuck!?!
Is that from a book or video game?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Regarding Gensis: they were looking for a planet to test it on. It was basically an instant terraformation device. The effect is supposed to rush across the entire surface of the planet, destroy everything, and rebuild it all according to its programming.
So, it would destroy everything on the planet, but the actual chunk of rock constituting the planet itself would stay intact.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Genesis would have to re-order the planet's crust on a molecular level to support life. That's only about 100,000th of the planet's overall thickness, but it's still a hell of a lot.
Billions of kilometers of surface area, if nothing else.
If Starfleet could develop a Genesis device with no re-programing of matter, just the power to destroy the existing structure, they'd have nothing to fear from the Borg (or anyone else asde from Q!).
...sure to create massive subspace and gravitational disturbances though.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:-Dominion protomatter bomb (indirectly, but same result)
Uh...the fuck!?!
Is that from a book or video game?
Dude - DS9 "By Inferno's Light". You know, Bashir-esque Changeling wanna pilot runabout into Bajor's sun, go boom with protomatter-trilithium bomb...
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Don't forget the "The Die is Cast" fleet. They intended to leave a naked core, but had they wanted to get after that as well (i.e. if they'd had more than six hours), they could've whacked the whole planet.
Total time it would take by volume would be perhaps 12 hours (I've run the numbers before, but I forget). I usually estimate a full day, just to be conservative.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
The extragalactic cloud creature from "One of Our Planets is Missing" (TAS) literally ate planets. Not really a weapon at all though. Besides, Spock showed the creature that eating planets was rather rude, and it probably left this galaxy after that.
In "Inheritance" (TNG), the E-D used 'ferroplasmic infusion' to reliquefy Atrea IV's core. I guess this method could be used in a less friendly manner.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:-Dominion protomatter bomb (indirectly, but same result)
Uh...the fuck!?!
Is that from a book or video game?
Dude - DS9 "By Inferno's Light". You know, Bashir-esque Changeling wanna pilot runabout into Bajor's sun, go boom with protomatter-trilithium bomb...
Mark
Oh! The Trilithium sun-buster weapon! I thought you were talking about some protomatter bomb to be used to blow up a planet.
I wonder if the changlings had read the report on Dr. Sauron's Trilithium sun buster weapon. After all, the Founders were deep into Starfleet HQ for a while before Homefront and could have said "Here's an idea!".... Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Did the giant space amoeba from "The Immunity Syndrome" destroy planets, or just digest everything on them? And then there's Nomad, although I think that also just eradictaed life from the planets.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well...the Romulans could always make dozens of Nomads from their old cloaking devices. Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Considering the Genesis device restructured matter in a nebula big enough for starships to cruise around in (not to mention needing warp drive to get out of in front of the wave effect), I think it wouldn't be much of a stretch for it to totally rework a planet from the core outward. Hell, for that matter, the Genesis effect might have created a whole solar system; anybody remember seeing a sun anywhere near the Mutara nebula before the thing went off?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's something that's always bothered me. It's likely that there was a small newly-formed star (just a few million years old) in the nebula (convient, I know) but the Genesis planet never really coud have been a success: the orbit would have had to be magically perfect (meaning the Reliant would have had to be in the "life zone" for class M planets). Next consider comets, asteroids and lethal radiation from the former nebula itself and it should have been no suprise the planet was tearing itself apart- protomatter or no.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
Well something was providing difuse light to Regula and it must have orbited a star unless it's one of those nifty rogue planetoids that are featured in Trek so often. And the Mutara Nebula probably would have just been black dust if it were not lighted by something.
I get the impression that the Genesis Device has graduated levels of power depending on the amount of protomatter used and that Khan "kicked it up a notch" to full power being the evil warlord kind of dude he is and wanting no chance for the Enterprise to escape.
Don't you think that the explosion featured at the end of TWoK would have ripped apart a planet if it had taken place on the surface like the graphic said it was intended to do? I think the only thing that saved Regula was a marginal bit of distance between it and the primary blast. And certainly they must not have lit that sucker up at full power inside that cave?
So I do think the Genesis Device is capable of destroying a planet and maybe even a star if it's at full power (didn't they use protomatter to kick start a star in one episode of DS9?).
Plus, regardless, at the end of ST:3, Regula seemed to be losing an awful lot of matter to space in those huge eruptions, I wouldn't be surprised if the planetoid broke apart under the tectonic stress.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
I just thought of something else.
Did the Metryon Cascade that killed Neelix's family actually destroy the moon he lived on or just scour the surface?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
re: Genesis: I think that Genesis would have to qualify as a weapon based on its effects seen in the simulations that Kirk (and the viewers) saw. It effectively scoured the surface of everything!
As for the Genesis Planet... well, maybe the planet NOT being in a perfect orbit was part of what contributed to its demise? Maybe the whole setup was somewhat more workable than David and Saavik seemed to decide, but of course the whole project got dropped and so the full ramifications on a REAL field test of Genesis were never considered.
I don't think that Genesis had anything other than one setting -- and Khan was hardly in any condition to do anything other than just turn it on, anyway! The explosion of the Reliant could easily be due to the Genesis wave interacting with an antimatter warp core... (Besides, we DID see an explosion on the surface of the moon in the original simulation... I don't think the Reliant's explosion was necessarily bigger than that.)
re: the Metreon Cascade: That was just some kind of massive bombardment of radiation and/or plasma... as I recall, the atmosphere was actually still mostly breathable afterwards, although most life was eradicated because of the nasty effects. Remember that Neelix led one of the rescue teams to head for the moon after the attack...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Is STARTREK.COM spying on us?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fuckers!
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
quote:Originally posted by Woodside Kid: anybody remember seeing a sun anywhere near the Mutara nebula before the thing went off?
My impression has always been that there was a star not too far away that was illuminating the Regula planetoid. The Mutara nebula was not far way at all since both ships were there in no time under impulse power so that star was probably also providing the illumination of the nebula. When the Relaint self-destructed with the Genesis explosion, I always considered that the Genesis Effect terraformed the surface of Regula.
(I also assumed that part of the planet's instability may have been caused because the Genesis device would've also interacted with the former Genesis experiment underground.) Maybe protomatter doesn't like coming into contact with itself??!
On an unrelated note, I always though the ending of Trek II was messed up. It was played out several times throughout the film that Khan was furious that Kirk kept 'besting' him. It woul've been more fitting for Khan's dying sight to be the Enterprise reach warp. Khan would've died knowing that Kirk ultimately defeated him. As it is, Khan thinks he killed Kirk.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:On an unrelated note, I always though the ending of Trek II was messed up. It was played out several times throughout the film that Khan was furious that Kirk kept 'besting' him. It woul've been more fitting for Khan's dying sight to be the Enterprise reach warp. Khan would've died knowing that Kirk ultimately defeated him. As it is, Khan thinks he killed Kirk.
I've felt the same way. Except that that would very likely have led to a very cliched scene where the villain shouts "NOOOOOO!!!!!" just before he's blown to smithereens. Khan's too good for that, IMO. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I only thought TWOK was screwy because Kirk obviously knew about Ceti Alpha V and what Kahn's people had to have gone through. They touch on it briefly when kirk shouts at Chekov "I know what he blames me for!". How in fuck could he have known that unless Mr. Admiral knew all about the planet's devestation and decided Kahn and the others were toast. He wrote them off and it cost the Regula crew, Reliant's captain and (indirectly) David's and Spok's lives. He's the villian in the movie. Kirk.
Kahn is just an obvious Ahab figure.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Perosnally, the Genesis effect never made sense as shown in the film. A device intended for use on planetary bodies goes off in a nebula and magically knows how to make a planet from gas and dust. Not only that, but the shockwave goes out and then miraculously makes all the materials fall back inwards (what did it do, convert it all to superdense material?)
As to the star, there is the one shot of the Reliant coming headlong at the Enterprise where there's a really bright light behind Reliant...you could say that was a star, except that it conveniently fades out just in time for the phaser barrage.
Crap science... Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think I'm with SoundEffect on this one.
I've always assumed that Regula and the star it was orbiting were inside the Mutara Nebula, and that perhaps the Mutara Nebula itself was created by the Regula star going all red-giant, sloughing off its outer layers and burning Regula to a crisp in the process. Genesis scooped up all that stellar ejecta and its, uh, matrix was naturally attracted to Regula. By, oh, let's say, gravity. Or something.
Anyway, my point is that it seems to me that the Genesis Planet was Regula, plus one nebula's worth of junk.
I suppose this might raise the question of why they didn't just use Regula as a test site in the first place, but incorporating a big dust cloud into the results was apparently not in their design specifications.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Dont forget incorperating several million pounds of Spacelab Regula 1 and whatever powered it.
The antimatter in the Enterprise probably didint help towards then end either.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
I can't remember for sure, but in ST3 the alien Mccoy tries to get a ride from said "Mutara is planet forbidden" Sort of like the Mutara sector was actually Starfleet's Area 51. Who knows what else was being "tested" in the area.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nope: James Hong said: "Genesis! (in almost the same way he said "Ah! Mr. Burton!). Genesis forbidden!"
Then the two LEAST subtle undercover operatives for starfleet intel show up. Small fucking wonder the Klingons could secretly build the fire-while-cloaked KBOP: those guys in starfleet intelligence are morons. The klingons probably built the ship in Earth's orbit, over starfleet HQ.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
Starfleet Intelligence is unstoppable. Would you believe... they've got shoe communicators? (Hopefully someone remembers "Get Smart" or at least watches Nick at Nite:D).
There power is rivalled only by the might of Starfleet Security, with there supercool "Elroy" hats and there ability to beat down anyone except a five foot six man in his mid-fifties whom they called "Tiny".
Anyhoo, back to planetwide weapons of mass destruction:
Tox Uthat - (One wonders why those stupid Vorgons were so interested in this device when they could create an equivalent weapon just by collecting Trilithium from a warp core? Or since they've obviously mastered time travel, just find a way to erase there enemies from existence?).
Omega Molecules - In large enough quantities I bet they could cause a planet to explode.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Omega often causes other Flarites to explode at him. It's his nature.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Just to make sure all the info is straight, the scene played out:
McCoy: "Somewhere in the... Mutara sector." Alien: "Ohh... Mutara restricted. Take permits many. Money more."
...
McCoy: "All right, dammit. It's Genesis! The name of the place we're going is Genesis!" Alien: "Genesis!? Genesis allowed is not. Is planet forbidden."
Then ONE Federation Security guy steps over and ends the conversation.
--Jonah
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If Starfleet could develop a Genesis device with no re-programing of matter, just the power to destroy the existing structure, they'd have nothing to fear from the Borg
Going a bit further they could have it turn all structure in to cute pink bunnies! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bond, James Bond: Tox Uthat - (One wonders why those stupid Vorgons were so interested in this device when they could create an equivalent weapon just by collecting Trilithium from a warp core? Or since they've obviously mastered time travel, just find a way to erase there enemies from existence?).
That's because the two Vorgons weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer. According to Q, they wouldn't have been a threat even if they HAD managed to get their hands on the device -- in nearly every timeline where they steal it, they ended up blowing themselves up with it. And in the ones where they didn't, they blew up Riker with it, which Q says is almost as good. Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bond, James Bond: Omega Molecules - In large enough quantities I bet they could cause a planet to explode.
um.. seeing as a single Omega molecule caused an entire sector of space to collapse into a subspace rift, and a sector could contain dozens of planets, i don't think the quantities are an issue
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
^^^ I believe the actual station that was conducting the Federation's first Omega Particle test survived, at least I seem to remember them showing a Regula Class space station with the side blown out. Hardly an entire sector collapsing into subspace and destroying dozens of planets...
What the Omega Particles did do was render warp travel in the entire sector impossible, a formidable weapon in itself if you wish to reduce your enemies to not being able to leave their own home system without the messiness of actually destroying them.
Also, the alien reserach station where Voyager tracked the Omega Particle test to was destroyed but some blackened but still upright buildings survived around the perimeter, and indeed the planet itself was fine. No mention was made of damage to subspace in that instance as far as I can remember.
Now, disregarding the subspace effects and focusing purely on the blast effects, which I was attempting to do when I first mentioned it, it is significant to note that only a single or a couple Omega Molecules were needed to produce those explosions, which would appear to be a vastly better performing warhead size to blast energy ratio then either nuclear or antimatter weapons which still require a significant amount of plutonium or antimatter to work.
So, back to my original statement, I think if you get enough Omega Molecules together you could blow up a planet with them, though the side effect, whether good or bad to your cause, may be that warp drive would be useless in the sector forever afterwards.
MM, good point about the Vorgons, I had forgotten that bit of dialogue.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by leuckinc:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If Starfleet could develop a Genesis device with no re-programing of matter, just the power to destroy the existing structure, they'd have nothing to fear from the Borg
Going a bit further they could have it turn all structure in to cute pink bunnies!
Prefab Defiants crewed by multiples of Sonia Gomez in Playboy bunny outfits.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bond, James Bond: So, back to my original statement, I think if you get enough Omega Molecules together you could blow up a planet with them, though the side effect, whether good or bad to your cause, may be that warp drive would be useless in the sector forever afterwards.
Except that the effects of the Omega on subspace is proportional to the number of molecules. I'm pretty sure that Janeway stated that the number of molecules they found out in the Delta Quadrant would have quite possibly destroyed subspace for thousands of light-years in all directions!
quote:MM, good point about the Vorgons, I had forgotten that bit of dialogue.
Actually, Bond, that was a joke! You should read Q's Guide to the Continuum some time... Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
Don't take advantage of my bad memory like that. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hey, I thought that mentioning Q (who had nothing to do with "Captain's Holiday") would be a dead giveaway...
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