Whats the rate of fire for the torpedo launcher(s) for an non-refit Connie and a refit Connie? Also, were the torpedo launchers loaded manually or automatically?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aya: Whats the rate of fire for the torpedo launcher(s) for an non-refit Connie and a refit Connie? Also, were the torpedo launchers loaded manually or automatically?
Generally speaking, on TOS they rarely ever discussed specifics of the nature of your inquiry. To my knowledge, there was never a direct reference to the rate of fire. Heck it was never clearly established how many weapons the ship had at all.
I suspect at best you'll find some fan speculation on these topics, but nothing really backed-up an episode or movie.
As to the movies, we saw a torpedo launcher twice, and in any one scene you never saw more than one torpedo being loaded at a time.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There are some hints in canon that could be discussed, though.
The TOS ship had at least six photon torpedo tubes, as mentioned in a couple of episodes ("Errand of Mercy" and "Journey to Babel" at least). It seems that at least tubes 4-6 faced forward. So theoretically, the ship should be able to unleash at least three torps within a second. For a proper WWII submarine movie feel, the launches would probably be staggered a bit. Reload time is completely unknown.
The movie-refit ship was only seen firing multiple torpedoes in ST6:TUC. The launches were staggered, at what seemed like half-second intervals (but we must always consider the possibility that space battles take place in slo mo!). And IIRC, two pairs of such staggered launches were seen, with a reload time of about one second. (DIRC?)
So maximum rate of fire might be four torps per two seconds. Whether the magazines or breeches of the launcher can hold more than two torps per tube launch-ready is unknown, as is whether there are other factors preventing the ship from sustaining the initial launch rate.
The half-second interval, four-torp burst seems to be the preferred pattern for most battle scenes. The Nebula in "Redemption", the Akira and the Sovereign in "First Contact", the Galaxy in several TNG occasions... Bursts of more than four are atypical (we see these in at least "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Yesterday's Enterprise", though), and firing intervals within a burst seem to be about half a second again. The E-D also fired a succession of eight torps in "EaF", with slightly longer intervals.
Probably the technology is not the limiting factor here - instead, some sort of a tactical consideration that stays constant from the 23rd to the 24th century dictates the use of four-torp bursts.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
As for the manual vs. automatic thing, TOS dialogue did not mention torpedo crews, although it did mention phaser crews. Movie era dialogue and visuals implied the exact opposite.
But I gather the safest bet would be to say that both systems were heavily man-tended in TOS, somewhat more lightly so in the TOS movie era, and basically automated after that.
There were only four times we got an actual peek into a torpedo room, really.
1) ST2 showed some manual work (removing the floor grilles), but that might have been the extent of it. Heck, today's automated shipboard cannon would require the same degree of tending, with just the removal of weather protection before firing.
2) ST6 showed Spock and McCoy crawling in a tube of some sort, with no hint of normally man-tended systems. In another scene, we saw some consoles next to what looked like a completely automated and enclosed magazine. These sets might be part of the system we saw in ST2, or then a completely different and somewhat more modern system.
3) TNG "In Theory" showed part of the E-D torpedo complex, essentially an empty room where the crews fiddled with the settings of a single torpedo. What might have been the loader-launcher was buried on the floor of the room, without obvious man-tended functions.
4) VOY "Future's End" showed Janeway in a torpedo facility not unlike the nondescript tube from ST6.
There was also a cut scene in "Way of the Warrior" where we'd have seen a torpedo launcher aboard DS9. That one would have been heavily man-tended, for dramatic effect.
The ENT facility makes regular appearances, of course, and seems to be man-tended, with torpedoes manhandled from clumsy racks onto launch rails! If there's an overhead crane for the job, I haven't seen it yet.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aya (Member # 1148) on :
Six!? Connies outgunned Galaxys in terms of torpedo launchers then.
Anyways, the reason why I wanted to know was I was playing Star Trek 25th Anniversary game and in it, you can command the Connie Enterprise in battles. Anyways, when you fire torpedos, you fire two at a time and that got me to wondering what the firing rates were for both types of Connies.
Thanks for the info.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Ahh, the 25th Anniversary game... Love the full 3D nature of the battles, and the ability to target off-boresight. And the sectionalized shielding. And the combat repairs interface. With slightly better graphics and situational awareness, and without the annoying "leave playing field at east end, reappear at west end" feature, it would be a very good Trek combat simulator even today. That's exactly how the ships should feel, IMHO. Not quite a sluggish 18th century sailing ship, not quite a Sopwith Camel, but something in between.
We never witnessed a paired launching of torpedoes in TOS, though. I think the VFX always showed a single bluish bolt leaving the saucer underside. But it *could* have been two torpedoes in close proximity and launched simultaneously... I think the 25th Anniversary reload times were rather plausible, really. And inferior to those of later-era ships, which makes the E-nil less powerful than a Galaxy after all.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aya (Member # 1148) on :
My one beef with the game though is the targeting system. Even when you've got the crosshairs trained right on the enemy ship, (like the pirate ship) you'll miss with the phasers.
Still, it's a great game.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
There's a multiple simultaneous launch, at least six to eight torps, in TNG "Booby Trap."
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
i'd think that the torpedo burst fired at the KBOP in Generations was several torpedos in a cluster as well: although they cheaped out and used that FUCKING SORRY SCENE FROM STVI!!!!!
I had to get that off my chest, sorry.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: i'd think that the torpedo burst fired at the KBOP in Generations was several torpedos in a cluster as well: although they cheaped out and used that FUCKING SORRY SCENE FROM STVI!!!!!
I would have imagined that most people would be more upset that the Ent-D didn't just open up with the maximum torpedoe spread and fry that little BoP even with her shields up, instead relying on some cheap trick in order to destroy a 50 year old relic.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, yeah, but everyone I saw the movie with noticed the use of the stock footage.
It just sucked after they obviously went with good effects and new models for the saucer, the array and the three ships at the movie's ending.
You're right, of course. If DS9 can wipe out a score of KBOP's in a matter of minutes, you'd think the Federation Flagship would be able to handle ONE decomissioned rustbucket.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Not with Riker in charge.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Burn: 1996.
Hey, let us all go to see the Blockbuster smash Independence Day. Jeff Goldblum is in everything these days.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Timo said: "The movie-refit ship was only seen firing multiple torpedoes in ST6:TUC."
In ST:III Scotty sets the Enterprise to rapid fire and the launcher shoots two torpedoes in one second, from the left tube alone. Had the Enterprise been fully loaded and outfitted for combat (instead of the skeleton crew and mothball status in ST:III) they could've fired four torpedoes per second using both launchers, 240 torps/min.
And since the Constellation class was shown on several occasions to have two "Refit-Ent" launchers, one in each pylon-node, she could have fired 480 shots/min, based on TSFS.
All technically and theoretically of course, but it's a solid thesis. It would also explain why Picard's maneuver was so successful, imagine two torpedoes per sec from four launchers...
If anyone has a computer model of the Constellation class and a copy of Lightwave or 3D-MAX, it would be cool to see a simple 3d-movie simulating a ten-second fire session based on these facts. At first only 1 of 4 launchers, firing for two secs, then another joins in every two seconds.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But as you said (and I do like to point it out ), this does not take into acount loading times, overheating and other technicalities.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Yes indeed, but I'm not saying it could fire for a whole minute, it was just a measurement. But the Ent-D fired, what, 10-15 torps in succession at Q in "Farpoint". A Constellation upgraded and preserved in todays' fleet (like the two Mirandas flanking the Defiant in "SoA") would probably be able to pull off a short five-second burst in the fire session I described. I don't imagine her magazines could take more than 20-30 per launcher, anyway.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
8 torps at Q, about one a second. This versus the full spread we've seen fired several times out of the forward launcher -- ten torps fired at once that then diverge to track independently.
--Jonah
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Last night I did some homework and decided to pry open The Making of Star Trek for the first time in an eternity to see what it said about the ship's weaponry.
"The ship's phaser banks are located on the underside of the saucer shaped hull, and therefore deck 11 contains the the ship's phaser controls and other related equipment and facilities. Phasers can also be fired from the area atop the saucer-shaped hull, in an area surrounding the bridge, but primary control facilities and equipment are located on deck 11."
The Making of Star Trek, p. 190
Now, the phrasing on the second sentence is a little strange, because you can read it two ways:
1) that there are phaser banks in the area surrounding the bridge (which kind of makes sense considering that would put banks around the two glowing domes, top and bottom), or
2) that all the phasers, related equipment and fire control are on deck 11, you can also fire the phasers from the bridge
I'm starting to lean towards the idea that deck 11 is basically the ship's battery and contained all the primary weapons, and maybe there were auxillary phaser banks around the bridge. Both configurations would leave a weaponry blind spot dead aft though, so if there was ever a mention of aft phasers those would have to be in the secondary hull.
All this is, of course, contradicted by the diagrams of the ship as shown in the same book, because it shows the main phaser at least two decks above where the text description puts it.
Furthermore,if you look at the cutaway drawing, there's not 11 decks in the saucer anyway!
The above is a cleanup of a scan from The Making of book, and I'm still working on finishing it up, so some details aren't there yet. The deck numbers are mine. (Note that I don't think the space immediately below the bridge is intended to be a deck...it's too freaking small.)
I think there's some argument to be made for this drawing being canon, because the side view of the Enterprise in the bridge turbolift alcove appears to match it (there are numerous arches just below the bridge --not added to my drawing yet -- that are pretty evident when the camera gets close to the diagram.
It's too bad Matt Jeffries died, cause right around that time he passed Andy Probert and I were talking about trying to find him and ask him a lot of questions about the origins of the designs, etc. Sigh.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
This ties in nicely with some ENT-era stuff, actually. Whenever Enterprise fired her phase cannons as part of a serious command (i.e. Archer says "Fire!"), they'd almost always use the main cannon mounts on the underside of the ship. But in other instances, when the ship is generically "in combat", they use secondary mounts for defensive or dispersion fire - in other words, smaller phase cannons that we don't see (and the VFX model doesn't have).
Perhaps something like this could have retcon-evolved its way into TOS?
mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Cut scenes from TWOTW?? Where did you see this? Are there cut scenes on the DVD??
If not, what is a bet Paramount release all of TNG/DS9 etc again on DVD but make each "Special Editions".
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