I've been trying to noodle out some of the personnel requirements of a starship, and one puzzle I keep running into is that of jobs that are only needed on an occasional basis.
For instance, what about damage control teams? Plenty of times I remember some "damage control teams to wherever" dialogue during a crisis. What do they do when there's no damage to control? Do they stand around in Engineering, getting in Scotty's way? Are there enough minor maintainance problems to keep them busy? Or are there no dedicated DC personnel, and "damage control teams" consist of Scotty saying, "you, you, and you, go put that fire out."
Or torpedo room crews? How often, in a given week, does a Starfleet ship fire its torpedoes? What does the crew do the rest of the time? Swab the deck? Play mumblety-peg? Maybe the console has a version of Windows Solitaire...
Some posts obviously need to be manned at all times. Sensors, for instance--you never know when a warbird's gonna decloak. But what about transporter rooms? Does a guy really stand around for eight hours on the off chance someone might want to beam in?
Anyone have any ideas? I know Flare has some lurkers with real life navy experience. Is there a real-world example of someone standing a watch, mostly doing nothing on the off chance he might be needed?
Marian
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
You're talking about their battle stations. However, the damage control teams often work elsewhere when not at battlestations, likely at maintenance. Or it's also likely that it isn't their shift most of the time, so they're sleeping or something.
In other words, they don't just do damage control or work the torpedo tubes all of the time.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
When people in the military aren't doing their job, they're training to do their job.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, on Starfleet ships there tend to be a whole lot of science and support/maintenance people. During combat, they're not likely to be nickering at test tubes or replacing chips. They'll organize into teams, get some damage control equipement, and get ready for the intercom order to go somewhere.
Mark
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Most likely the science staff has extensive DC training. The odds that you'll be needing a geology sample tested during a fight with a warbird are very slim.
Posted by Highway Hoss (Member # 1289) on :
Damage Control teams would probably do normal maintainence during routine operations. Also the science personnel would be cross-trained in other duties.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Like medical training...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Staffing requirments are going to change depending on the era: we're already banging around the crew needs of a Miranda and how automation would drop them by mabye as low as 90% (although seeing a Miranda with a crew of 12 is frankly, stupid- it's a biiiig ship for only 4-5 people working per shift!).
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
remember Lt. McGivers? she sat around painting for five years except for that one time they needed a historian.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think that counts as more of a "specialist" position though....
I bet she was hot though. Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
hot? freakin Khan married her! his intelligence is superior!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That, and his manly chest.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Manly plastic chest.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Manly plastic chest.
In two TWOK commentary Nick Meyer says people always ask him about the chest and he insists that's really Ricardo's chest.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Nimoy concurs in I Am Spock.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Suuuure. Look at him in those old Buick commercials: no chest there. I bet he's got it in his closet for when he wants to impress the ladies. Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Hmmm...gives a whole new perspective when I watch Kirk scream, "KHANNNNNNN!" again.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe the galley staff are part of damage control teams? stuffing chickens into blown bulkheads or rewireing eps relays with that night's pasta?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
FWIW, I am strongly of the opinion that the Enterprise in TWOK had been retrofitted with a manual-loading system as part of her function as a training vessel. I'd wager serving ships pre and post all had automated systems a la what we saw in TUC. Training vessels' functions aren't so much about the technology. That's what the classrooms and simulators are for. They're about building teamwork and the ability to function within a chain of command. The U.S. Coast Guard's Eagle is a good example. No USCG cutter that I've seen has sails, but working the rigging is part of serving on this ship...
--Jonah
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: When people in the military aren't doing their job, they're training to do their job.
Ummmm, sure....that or reading Flare.
(Hurrys and gets back to work, before the taxpayers notice) Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Suuuure. Look at him in those old Buick commercials: no chest there. I bet he's got it in his closet for when he wants to impress the ladies.
Welllll, anyone who lifts weights knowns the bulk comes and goes depending on how much you work out. And ol Ricardo DID have a chest back in the day: Genetic Superchest Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: FWIW, I am strongly of the opinion that the Enterprise in TWOK had been retrofitted with a manual-loading system as part of her function as a training vessel. I'd wager serving ships pre and post all had automated systems a la what we saw in TUC.
I'd like to think that all torpedoe launchers have a manual loading system, for when the auto-load is on the fritz. It's just common sense. Although, not that much of loading a photon torpedoe can be done "manually": the casing's too heavy to be practically manhandled, and I doubt there are hand pumps for reactant injection...
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Thanks, everyone, for all the ideas and suggestions. It's nice to be able to call on some surrogate brainstormers when I'm stuck.
And any tangent that leads to Ricardo Montalban's chest is one I can live with.
I especially like Sol's post about regular training. And I agree with David about the need for manned crews in case the automation goes down. Maybe that's why there was a 'phaser room' in "Balance Of Terror"--the bridge weapon controls were down for maintainance that day.
I rather doubt Starfleet ships depend entirely on cross-trained geologists and botanists for damage control or weapons stations, but it'd be nice to have them in reserve. And come to think of it, I vaguely remember Spock doing a lot of crawing into the wiring whenever something went wrong on the bridge.
Marian
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well, geologists and botanists and so forth probably spend a lot of time studying survey reports and specimens from the hundreds of planets the Federation had encountered where they need to be kept up to date with that stuff.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Allright heres the skinny, on my last US Navy ship when their was immminant danger or something the ship went to General Quarters, which is similar to Red Alert. The ship was closed to outside air and every door, hatch, and scuttle was closed to watertight intergrity. The damage control teams manned up the repair lockers and waited there in full firefighting ensemble. When word got around the ship was hit, they investigated and put out the fires. Everyone else went to the assigned battle station, manning radars, 50 cal machine guns, the flight deck to launch planes if needed, the bridge, engineering spaces, damage control central, wherever. Those of us who didnt have an assigned station usually sat in our workcenters "training" (reading, watching movies, sleeping) The US navy has a set job for damage control, ie Damage Controlman. But the damage control teams during battle stations are made up of people from various occupations on the ship. I was an ordnanceman but for a year I was number 2 nozzleman at Repair Locker 2 which was the middle of the ship. When the ship wasnt at battle stations I was doing my other duties in my workcenter. So I hope that answers your question.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
No, I am still trying to figure out why the price of rice in China is important to people....
Yes, most positions for the EMs, and some others, are multi task jobs....
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: So I hope that answers your question.
Actually, it confuses me even more.
If the Navy does have a set job of Damage Controlman, then why is it that "the damage control teams during battle stations are made up of people from various occupations on the ship," and not Damage Controlmen? And what does the Damage Controlman do when not controlling damage? Practice?
I'm glad you joined the conversation, though; you're one of the people I had in mind when I posted the thread, and I'm now going to jump all over you with questions. What is a repair locker? Does it hold firefighting equipment? How big is it? Are they scattered all through the ship or concentrated in a specific area?
How did "word get around" that the ship had been damaged? In Weber's Honor Harrington novels, RMN starships have a 'Damaged Control Center' which keeps track of damage reports and tells damage control parties where to go. Do USN ships have something similar?
The TMP Enterprise had a 'Damage And Repair' station on the bridge, but it was manned by a single enlisted crewman, and pretty much unmanned in Star Trek II. Perhaps it was just there to keep the Captain updated, while an actual DCC was somewhere else in the ship.
Except, of course, when the chief engineer is a Main Character--then he does it all!
As for transporter rooms, thank's to Sol's idea about training, I guess it's plausible that they're manned all the time. (Maybe they take turns sending each other the thorniest simulated problems they can think of.) In TOS and TMP, transporters usually had two people operating them--a main operator and an assistant. The TMP Enterprise had six(?) regular transporter rooms...so that's what? Say, one PO and one able seaman per room, times three shifts, equals 36 crewmen. Plus at least one junior officer per shift to oversee, with maybe an ensign or a CPO as an exec. Does that sound realistic?
Torpedo rooms maybe wouldn't need to be fully manned all the time. Maybe the entire crew is broken into three skeleton crews, one to stand each watch and get some practice in, and during Red Alert all three groups join together to fully man the station. Based on Star Trek II, let's say it takes six crewmen and two junior officers to fully staff a torpedo room. A standard watch would then have two crewman, who could handle any routine task (like launching a sensor probe), while the officers "floated" around the schedule, running drills and sims (and doing the paperwork). During an emergency the full crew would be on hand to handle jams in the autoloading system or other equipment failure, and (grim as it may sound) insure there's enough people to keep the place running even if they take casualties.
As for damage control, maybe Intruder1701's "Damage Controlmen" lead damage control parties, but the rest of each team is made up of regular crewmen & cross-trained scientists & support services guys. Or the damage contrlmen man a DCC similar to Weber's, and coordinate the teams. The question of how many remains, though. How much of the ship could one team cover?
What do you all think?
The enlisted ranks, incidentally, are based on Bod Fletcher's background notes for ST II-IV, courtesy of Spike's awesome web site. I was able to pause a widescreen DVD copy of Star Trek II and actually see Peter Preston's 'able seaman' rank pin, in the sickbay scene when he reaches up to grasp Kirk's tunic. Naturally (alas), the dialogue and visual FX are not in sync, as he's referred to in dialogue as a midshipman.
Fletcher's notes also include a costume for damage control personnel, which appeared in Star Trek II. It's identical to the Engineering rad suit with the wide black collar, except it's orange instead of white.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: How did "word get around" that the ship had been damaged? In Weber's Honor Harrington novels, RMN starships have a 'Damaged Control Center' which keeps track of damage reports and tells damage control parties where to go. Do USN ships have something similar?
Um, that should have been "Damage Control Center." I know could just edit the post, but actually I think it's kind of funny.
OTOH, I am deep in sleep deprivation territory...
Marian
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I always wondered about the orange and black collars...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What happens if the Damage Control Center is damaged? Is there a Aux damage Control Center? ...an Aux Aux Damage Control Center?
There has to be de-centralized damage detection sensors throught the ship tied to the main computer and with information relayed to damage control teams (mabye via communicators or Tricorders) during Red Alert.
I'm sure there's several department heads for D.C. but in a extreme crisis, the teams would have to be pretty independant of each other.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Ok, In response to MarianLH's questions.. 1st-Damage Controlmen pretty much are sort of like firefighters in the civilian world. They train the rest of the crew in damage control and perfrom maintence on DC equipment (fire hoses, water pumps, gas masks, etc). As far as the rest of the crew, we are merely an augmentation of the damage control teams. The Damage Controlmen lead the teams with the rest of the team made up of augmentees. 2nd-Repair Lockers- Repair lockers are scattered all around the ship. I can only speak for a carrier but Im sure the rest of the ships in the fleet are arranged the same way. There are 3 lockers on the 2nd deck below the hanger. One is all the way forward, one in the middle and one all the way back aft. They control from the 2nd deck down. There are 3 more in the hanger bay, forward, middle and aft. and 3 more on the 03 level, one forward, one middle, which includes the island, and one aft. And one more locker on the backside of the island used mainly for controling flight deck fires. These lockers contain everything a fire party needs to contain damage, Fire fighting gear (just like the ones the firemen wear), wood for shoring up holes in the hull, patching kits for flooding, portable pumps for pumping out water, SCBAs (self contained breathing apparutus') to provide air when fighting a fire, CO2 bottles, hoses, nozzles etc. 3rd-Down in the bowels of the ship is DCC, Damage Control Central, when a fire or missile hit or whatever is reported the locker in the area of the casualty is manned up with the fire party. First person there gets on the phone and he connects to DCC and provides the Damage Control Officer of the Watch with up to date info on the status of putting out the fire, flood, whatever and the status of repairs things like that. Normally when something like that happens word is passed over the ships general announcing system and that lets everyone know whats going on and thats how the fire team knows that there is a fire or something because most likely the people that make up the fire party are going to be elsewhere doing their assigned jobs in their workcenter so they drop everything and rush to the locker. Just think of the fire party as a volunteer fire department.
Anymore questions?
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH:
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: So I hope that answers your question.
Actually, it confuses me even more.
If the Navy does have a set job of Damage Controlman, then why is it that "the damage control teams during battle stations are made up of people from various occupations on the ship," and not Damage Controlmen? And what does the Damage Controlman do when not controlling damage? Practice?
I'm glad you joined the conversation, though; you're one of the people I had in mind when I posted the thread, and I'm now going to jump all over you with questions. What is a repair locker? Does it hold firefighting equipment? How big is it? Are they scattered all through the ship or concentrated in a specific area?
How did "word get around" that the ship had been damaged? In Weber's Honor Harrington novels, RMN starships have a 'Damaged Control Center' which keeps track of damage reports and tells damage control parties where to go. Do USN ships have something similar?
Marian
The official Navy website (Sorta) . Sheesh, you ask too many questions. I would tell you more but... it looks like your mind is ozzing more so we need to tighten the tornique more around your neck... 'side's, Intruder1701's input is dead on. a little too dead on for my liking but agreable. i've served on Gator's myself for my sea time. and DC is hard, look at the comendable acts of heroism the crew of the Cole did to save their ship. i've seen some really amazing pics they did to repair damage that occured after the attack. horrifying... Those folks on small boys are tuff fuckers, no doubts there...
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
www.navy.mil is the site.....
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: www.navy.mil is One of the sites.....
I just gave the the commerial site, they never say the MIL site on all the avertising. I think...?
'sides. i do all my business at NKO anyway... Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
And yet neither web site goes into the kind of nuts and bolts detail Intruder1701 has.
Some of the stuff was interesting, like the guide to enlisted ratings and rates. But I'm not really all that interested in the USN (at least, not in the context of this thread). What I'm interested in is figuring out day-to-day details of life on a starship, and extrapolating from how a real navy does things may yield a more realistic and functional result that just guessing.
I didn't ask about repair lockers because I want to know how the USN fights fires. I asked so I could make an educated guess of what's in a starship's repair lockers. Likewise, when I ask Intruder1701 (as I'm about to) how many people besides the DCO man the DCC, it's so I can figure out how many people man the DCC on the Enterprise, and therefore how much space it would need and what it would look like.
For instance, earlier I speculated on how a torpedo room might be staffed. That was, for the most part, totally off the top of my head. Since then it's occured to me that knowing how a WWII battleship manned up one of its main gun turrets might shed some light on the question.
If anyone has any links that do go into that kind of minutae, by all means let me know. =)
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: What happens if the Damage Control Center is damaged? Is there a Aux damage Control Center? ...an Aux Aux Damage Control Center?
Yes, Jason. Just like there's an aux warp core for when that gets damaged.
quote: There has to be de-centralized damage detection sensors throught the ship tied to the main computer and with information relayed to damage control teams (mabye via communicators or Tricorders) during Red Alert.
Yes, but who relays the information? Good idea about tricorders, though. Except in some TOS episodes, I've never noticed anything like the "now hear this," shipwide routine announcements that seem to be the norm on USN ships.
In the TNG era I could believe that the main computer does it without any oversight. But that seems a bit advanced for the 23rd century. I figure that computer support will assist manned operators and reduce the number of live bodies needed to do any given task, but not eliminate them completely.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: Anymore questions?
I could probably keep finding new questions as long as you're willing to answering them. I think I have a pretty good idea now about how to organize DC parties on a starship. There might be something analagous to repair lockers, or they might adopt a more distributed approach. According to Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise, the new TMP corridors were narrower because they contained compartments in the walls, holding survival equipment, spacesuits, & so on. Maybe every corridor segment is its own mini repair locker.
In TNG, fires and hull breaches are contained by forcefields, but that's probably not the case back in the 23rd century. Star Trek II and Star Trek VI both showed conventional fire extinguishers. So a repair locker on a starship would still need firefighting equipment, albiet smaller and more advanced--maybe they could beam in water the same way the TMP-era food stations do. Patches to deal with small hull breaches, vacuum survival gear, rescue bags, some of those doohickeys from Star Trek IV for shoring up bulkheads...
What would you say to six damage control parties on the TMP Enterprise--two in the primary hull (one covering F Deck and up, and the other G Deck on down), one covering the dorsal, torpedo room and magazine, and three in the secondary hull (covering engineering, the hanger/cargo area, and the lower decks)? The TOS version could probably eliminate the dorsal team, since the torpedo room is in the primary hull...
Are damage controlman usually commissioned officers, petty officers, or what?
Is there a Damage Control Officer of the Watch at all times, or just when the ship is at general quarters? How many other people man DCC? What do they do?
And just for fun: what's the difference between a yeoman and a steward? Does the USN even have stewards, or is that a British thing?
Marian
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, in TUC there was that "now hear this" announcement about the yeomen, maybe that's a routine occurance. Maybe it just doesn't get played on the bridge, which is usually where the camera is.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Yes, of course. As soon as the plot required a general annoucement, the ship suddenly has general annoucements.
Just as the chief engineer handles all damage control himself when the chief engineer is a Main Character.
Sci Fi TV. So much potential, so flawed in execution.
Nice try, though. Especially the idea that they aren't played on the bridge. If there was even one other routine--and non plot-driven--"now hear this" announcement...
Marian
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Yes, of course. As soon as the plot required a general annoucement, the ship suddenly has general annoucements.
Just as the chief engineer handles all damage control himself when the chief engineer is a Main Character.
Sci Fi TV. So much potential, so flawed in execution.
Nice try, though. Especially the idea that they aren't played on the bridge. If there was even one other routine--and non plot-driven--"now hear this" announcement...
Marian
something else to think about. such ships, where you have replicators, does the BOOW Bo'sn of the Watch) still play the whilse to say it's chow time? or the ship's bells for time of day? or taps? Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Well...Nick Meyer had ship's bells ringing the hours in both films he directed. And they still trot out bosun's pipes for an admiral or a visiting head of state...in both of Meyer's films, again. I'm sensing a theme here...
Did TNG or DS9 ever have bosun's pipes in any episode?
Marian
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
ENT did I think.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well, honestly I really cant tell you who usually mans up DCC because I never really went down there, I do know that underway there was the EOOW (Enginneering Officer of the Watch), and a messanger. Thats about all I knew. but I am like Marian I have given much though into how a starship actually works and this was one subject that I have given thought. I assume that DCC on a starship is probaly somewhere near main engineering and probaly a DC officer and some assistants maintain it. But in my reasoning say a standard saucer/primary hull vessel (Constitution, Excelsior, etc), 2 teams for the saucer, one on each side, one for the neck, and 2 or 3 for the primary hull. Damage Controlman are enlisted rates. On my last ship our Damage Control officer was a former enlisted damagecontrolman who picked up officer. And no the USN does not have stewards, they did away with that in the 70s. However the Captain and the Admiral have their own cooks. A yeoman is an enlisted rating that handles paperwork and a steward is kinda like the captains bitch. The Captain has a sectary that is usually an Ensign or LTJG who handles all his paperwork.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who cares. I wonder what the operative term would be? Operations geek?
Intruder1701: you might be interested in this page. It's a breakdown of ship's departments, based apparently on Robert Fletcher's ST II-IV costuming notes.
Any particular reason why you'd divide up the saucer damage control teams by port and starboard rather than up and down?
I also thought that DCC would be near Engineering. Given enough computer support, DCC might consist of a console in Engineering. But lately I've been reconsidering. Main Engineering is a place that seems to be prone to exploding, or leaking copious amounts of toxic coolant or radiation. Maybe DCC should be put somewhere else. H Deck seems underused...
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
No reason. I did like the page though but there would be some things that I would change.
Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
MarianLH said: "In Weber's Honor Harrington novels, RMN starships have a 'Damaged Control Center' which keeps track of damage reports and tells damage control parties where to go."
Yay, another treecat on the forum!
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
lol, I didn't know that we already had a contigent. Where can I apply?
(Go Harrington Treecats! Knock it outta the par--er...never mind. )
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Well...Nick Meyer had ship's bells ringing the hours in both films he directed. And they still trot out bosun's pipes for an admiral or a visiting head of state...in both of Meyer's films, again. I'm sensing a theme here...
Did TNG or DS9 ever have bosun's pipes in any episode? Marian
The flute sounding thing? I think DS9 had that when Sisko became captain.
Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
Manticore: "lol, I didn't know that we already had a contigent. Where can I apply?"
You actually missed the reference I slipped you at our first meeting?
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
How did I miss that?
(and for once, someone guessed the origin of my name right! )
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
What, rectal donations? B)
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: I did like the page though but there would be some things that I would change.
Me too, though I would very much like to hear what you'd change, given your actual experience.
IMHO, "Alienology" needs to get dumped from the Science Division. I suppose it could be changed to xenology or something, but by any name having an alien studies department strikes me as humanocentric. The Biology Dept. would handle alien plant and animal life without making any kind of "us and them" distinction. Besides, what else are they there for? The off chance of running into a human colony?
I'd also move Logistic Support and General Accounting from Command Division to Ship's Services, and I like Diane Duane's notion that Recreation would be part of the Medical Division.
Some of the entries seem to be for jobs that Starfleet as a whole would have, but wouldn't be found on a starship, like the Colonial Operations and JAG stuff in the Command Division, or Ship Fitters in Engineering. Seabees might be carried on some ships though, in case they need to build temporary shelters on a planet�s surface or something. Or, you know, to build a solar sail when some alien probe whips by and drains all your power...
Having both a security division and marines seems redundant, but thanks to Star Trek V we have department colours for both of them. Do real USN ships have any kind of navy security or MPs, or is it all done by marines? Maybe the blue collar guys in Star Trek V were a special hostage rescue team sent along for the Nimbus III mission.
Marian
PS:
As for treecats, I have no particular love for the manipulative little furballs. Bosuns, on the other hand...in my next life I want to be Sally MacBride. Do you think Starfleet ships have bosuns?
Oh yeah, and:
quote:"Marian- Foamy's wife"
...the fuck? Posted by Nim the Fanciful (Member # 205) on :
You learn quickly...
That should be Beth, Styrofoamman's wife.
Ah, yes, MacBride. Didn't she get an LAC-class named after her, or something?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Beth? I thought we agreed to call her "'becca". "Becky"?
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well after 1996 the USN got rid of the MARDET (Marine Detachment) since our carriers stopped carrying nuclear weapons. Since then our security is handled by a seperate navy rating called Master at Arms. They are run like a regular police force about 20 strong with about 2 augmentees from various departments. I have given thought to Starfleet's Organization as a whole and here is some of the stuff Ive come up with
CSO-Chief of Starfleet Operations he is a the head admiral in charge of everything JAG Science Supply Starfleet Corps of Engineers-R&D would fall under here Medical/Dental Intell just to name a few
On the page, I wouldnt call it Transportation, I would call it something else, more like propulsion division or something like that and I would put Gunnery under security or make it a seperate department ( On a carrier they are called G divisions under the Weapons Department, I was in G-1 Flight Deck Ordnance. On smaller ships they are part of Deck Department. So on the page, I would have a deck department with the Gunnery crew for example.
G-1 Phasers, Photon Torpedos, and maybe tractor beams G-2 Helmsman, Navigation G-3 Small craft G-4 Departmental Admin
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I would think the CiC would be above the CSO.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
There wouldnt be a CIC. It would be the CSO and then the President.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Except that in Star Trek VI there was a CiC. Although if I remember right, the woman actually said C-in-C.
One thing to keep in mind when shoving departments around is that uniform colour codes are based on the chart as-is. For example, if you take Helm out of Engineering, then why is Sulu wearing gold? I can get away with moving Rec to Medical because we've never actually seen any Rec personnel. But the Gunnery officers & crew in Star Trek II definately weren't wearing Windsor Green. (On the other hand, see below.)
There are also some omissions on the chart. Shuttle pilots, for instance. I think Flight Control would be a logical place for it. Also, no mention of sensors. I would change Navigation to Navigation & Sensors, since navigation is the primary purpose of sensors. And since Navigation is part of Science Division, that puts it close to the other main thing sensors gets used for--you know, seeking out new lifeforms & new civilisations and all that.
As for Gunnery, I rather like the idea that weapons are of such secondary importance on a Starfleet ship that they're tucked into another department as an afterthought. In a little bit of fiction I'm writing, I've even gone with the notion that phaser room duty is one of those scut jobs that newly-assigned crew members get stuck with because of their lack of seniority.
OTOH, the one real onscreen error, as far as uniform colours go, that I've been able to find involves Gunnery. According to the chart, Gunnery's an Engineering section, but in the the Kobyashi Maru sim the enlisted rating manning the weapons console was definately wearing gray, not gold. It's harder to tell with the torpedo room crew, because of the Red Alert lighting, but I think they were wearing grey too.
I've been tinkering with the idea of splitting Gunnery into two sections, Ordnance and Fire Control, with the latter being a subset of Navigation & Sensors. Fire control is, after all, one of the things you use sensors for. Since N&S is part of Science Division, that would explain why the bridge rating was wearing grey.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Addendum: I just watched the "rolling out the guns" scene from Star Trek II again, and I counted two officers and eight enlisted in the torpedo room. One of the latter was up on the balcony.
From what I've been able to find on the web, the firing room crew of a battleship turret consisted of an officer, an NCO, and an unmentioned number of enlisted men. However, all they did was maintain the bores and load the guns; a gun plotting room below was where the turret was aimed and fired. And below that, at the very bottom, was the magazine.
It occurs to me that locating the photorp magazine above the torpedo room wasn't the best of ideas. Not so much because it's above as because it's in the narrow dorsal section where it's exposed to enemy fire. The Excelsior's torpedo system is much improved.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
You have a point about storing torpedos, speaking of best ideas ask me sometime about storing ordnance during wartime. Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Briefly going back to the whole CiC/CSO mess, Kirk was the CSO in TMP, but was only a low ranking admiral and he still had to go to Nogura to get the Enterprise back.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nogura might have been in charge of fleet deployments and new commisions.
Or
He could have been the project head in charge of refitting all those aging TOS era ships.
Either way, Kirk couldnt step on his toes.
Posted by Captain Mike XLVII (Member # 709) on :
btw, wasnt the TWOK torpedo room scene where Nick Meyer did his uniformed cameo? or did i just hear that somewhere?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Fleet Admiral Marrow from STIII was called "Starfleet Commander", and was also implied to be the Big Chief of Starfleet.
Other Fleet Admirals were Cartwright in STIV, and Bennett in STV. I haven't seen STV in a long time, but Cartwright might also have been intended to be the chief of Starfleet.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
In the USN the head guy in charge of the Navy is the CNO, Cheif of Naval Operations, directly beneath him are the CinCs, Commander in Cheif Atlantic Fleet, Commander in Cheif Pacific Fleet
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Yes, however, Starfleet doesn't operate completely based off the Earth navies. And the CiCs you mention are only divisions within the USN. The Starfleet CiC is apparently the head of the entire Starfleet.
Though often believed to be CiCs, Cartwright and Bennett don't have to be. Nothing in the scripts or in dialog suggest that notion. It's better that Cartwright wasn't the CiC in ST4 because it's apparent he's under Adm. Smillie in ST6, who was the CiC.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: It's better that Cartwright wasn't the CiC in ST4 because it's apparent he's under Adm. Smillie in ST6, who was the CiC.
Why? I always got the impression that the position of Starfleet Commander was a temporary one, that senior admirals were rotated through it. With nine years between IV and VI, there's plenty of room for both of them to hold the post. And Cartwright was certainly acting like the guy in charge, briefing the president and all.
Incidentally, at the beginning of TMP Kirk was wearing a rear admiral's rank insignia, so whatever "chief of Starfleet operations" is, it's pretty low on the totem pole. In Roddenberry's novelization, he's acting mostly as a kind of executive officer for Nogura.
Marian
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
He could have been Chief of Starfleet Operations, Sol Sector. Or something.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Though I said Starfleet doesn't operate completely off the navies, it would seem odd a policy for officers to hold the highest Starfleet position and then receive a demotion to serve under another officer.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: He could have been Chief of Starfleet Operations, Sol Sector. Or something.
That actually makes sense: as Sol system would be very well defended (from conventional threats at least) Kirk would have been pretty much a administrator and figurehead.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Administrator by day, pimp by night.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Sol system would be very well defended..."
Yeah, by the biggest particle accelerator cannon in the universe. B)
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Hmm Cartman Im wondering if we are are the same wavelength here because if we are thats just disgusting!!!!
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dat: Though I said Starfleet doesn't operate completely off the navies, it would seem odd a policy for officers to hold the highest Starfleet position and then receive a demotion to serve under another officer.
I wouldn't consider ending a term of office to be a 'demotion.' It's a post, not a rank. To me it makes perfect sense that an admiral would hold the postion of Starfleet Commander for a specific length of time--say, two years or something--and then be replaced by someone else.
And Vonda McIntyre obviously agreed when she wrote the novelization of Star Trek IV; there's a line in there where Cartwright says to Kirk, "you left him (Morrow) one hell of a mess to end his tenure." To which Kirk replies, "and to begin yours."
Marian
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Promotions and demotions are not always regarding rank. Going from a lower position to a higher one is a promotion and vice versa is a demotion. The key word is "position". Take for instance, O'Brien said he got a promtion from being a transporter chief to Chief of Operations, while maintaining the same rank. He went from a junior crewman to a senior officer.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Someone here is asking me to post this:
I wouldn't consider ending a term of office to be a 'demotion.' It's a post, not a rank. To me it makes perfect sense that an admiral would hold the postion of Starfleet Commander for a specific length of time--say, two years or something--and then be replaced by someone else.
The rotation idea makes good sense in that it allows everyone to get familair with areas; however, the idea that someone who's specialized in, say, Klingon affairs is placed in a position where they're dealing with the Sheliak is idiotic. No doubt there's a certain level of qualification requirements for any post as well as ability; I sure as shit wouldn't want Jellico as Chief of Staff, Starfleet (which seems to be the official title of "Head Dude" as noted on the dedplaques) because he's too gung-ho & too much of a hardass.
On another tack, there may (like in the Navy) be rank requirements--A quadrant commander billet like COMBETAQUAD may need to be 3-star (er, 3-pip) & above, because only vice admirals higher would be deemd to have the necessary experience. Sector commanders can be commodore & higher. There would also be allowances for personal experience, though, resulting in Rear Admiral Kirk's billet of note.
-------------------- "I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists!" --Hedley Lamarr
[ April 25, 2004, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Getting back to the original topic...this is a breakdown of the officers of the TMP Enterprise, based on Bob Fletcher's chart (after my modifications to it). With a little tweaking, it comes to exactly the 72 officers the TMP Enterprise is supposed to have.
I've also noted a few NCOs and crew, but I'm only getting started on that. FWIW I expect other ships of the same era to have a roughly similar slate of officers; after all, they need to fill the same duty slots. It's the number of crew that would be more variable.
Generally speaking, where three officers are assigned to a given duty slot, it means that each watch has an Officer of the Watch for that duty slot. E.g., every shift has an Impulse Engineering Officer of the Watch, a Helmsman, etc. One of them, typically the Alpha Shift OotW, is the senior officer for that duty slot, and the other two act as his assistants. A Yellow Alert would bring a second officer on duty as well as the current officer of the watch, and a Red Alert would put all three on duty.
Two officers assigned to a given duty slot means there doesn't have to be an officer on duty at all times. Again, one is senior, with the other acting as an assistant. As in my torpedo room example above, they arrange drills and training and see to the paperwork, while an NCO actually oversees the day-to-day management of the post, but everyone shows up when the ship is put on alert.
If there's only one officer assigned to a slot (not counting SOs), it means that officer is never needed without warning and can simply keep "office hours."
Generally speaking, that is. The Chief Security Officer doubles as a security officer, so there's actually three of them, one for each shift. Ditto the Chief Medical Officer.
Interesting to note that Engineering accounts for almost half of the ship's officers by itself. And Command is the smallest.
Enjoy. Or rip apart or ignore, as you prefer.
COMMAND DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 2 SO, 0 JO, 1 NCO, 1 CREW
CAPTAIN (1 SO)
FIRST OFFICER (1 SO)
BOSUN (1 NCO)
CAPTAIN�S YEOMAN (1 CREW)
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 33 JO, ??? NCO, ??? CREW
CHIEF ENGINEERING OFFICER (1 SO)
MAIN ENGINEERING OFFICERS (3 JO)
IMPULSE ENGINEERING OFFICERS (3 JO)
BATTERY ROOM OFFICERS (2 JO)
MAINTAINANCE & REPAIR OFFICERS (2 JO)
DAMAGE CONTROL OFFICERS (2 JO)
RADIATION CONTROL OFFICERS (2 JO)
TRANSPORTER OFFICERS (2 JO)
ENERGY-FIELD OFFICERS (2 JO)
TECHNICAL SUPPLY OFFICER (1 JO)
PHASER ROOM OFFICERS (2 JO)
TORPEDO ROOM OFFICERS (2 JO)
TORPEDO & PROBE MAGAZINE OFFICER (1 JO)
HELMSMEN (3 JO)
LANDING BAY CONTROL OFFICERS (2 JO)
HANGER DECK OFFICERS (2 JO)
MAIN COMPUTER OPERATIONS OFFICERS (2 JO)
SCIENCES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 17 JO, ??? NCO, ??? CREW
CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER (1 SO)
NAVIGATION OFFICERS (3 JO)
SENSOR SYSTEMS OFFICERS (3 JO)
COMMUNICATIONS OFFICERS (3 JO)
ANTHROPOLOGIST (1 JO)
ARCHAEOLOGIST (1 JO)
ASTRONOMIST/ASTROPHYSICIST (1 JO)
BIOLOGIST (1 JO)
CHEMIST (1 JO)
GENETICIST (1 JO)
MATHEMATICIAN (1 JO)
PHYSICIST (1 JO)
SECURITY DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 2 JO, 3 NCO, 27 CREW
CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER (1 SO)
SECURITY OFFICERS (2 JO)
SECURITY PERSONNEL (3 NCO, 27 CREW)
MEDICAL DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 5 JO, 5 NCO, 25 CREW
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER (1 SO)
MEDICAL OFFICERS (2 JO)
PSYCHOTHERAPIST (1 JO)
DENTIST (1 JO)
RECREATION OFFICER (1 JO)
CHIEF NURSE (1 NCO)
ASST. CHIEF NURSE (2 NCO)
RECREATION PERSONNEL (2 NCO)
NURSES (12 CREW)
MEDICAL TECHNICIANS (9 CREW)
MEDICAL RESEARCH TECHNICIANS (4 CREW)
SERVICES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 8 JO, ??? NCO, ??? CREW
CHIEF SERVICES OFFICER (1 SO)
QUARTERMASTER (2 JO)
CARGO BAY OFFICER (2 JO)
COMMISSARY OFFICER (2 JO)
JANITORIAL SERVICES OFFICER (1 JO)
SPECIAL CRAFTS OFFICER (1 JO)
TOTAL: 72 OFFICERS (7 SO, 65 JO)
Marian
[ April 28, 2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: MarianLH ]
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Another question for people with real military experience:
In Star Trek: The Motion Picturethere's no rank insignia for lieutenant (junior grade). According to The Making Of TMP the rank didn't exist during this time. Obviously, it's back by the time of Star Trek II. I don't know if they actually meant to remove the rank, or forgot about it and make up the idea to cover their asses.
Is that realistic, eliminating a rank and then restoring it a decade later? I know real services have tinkered with their ranks to some extent--the US Army's gotten rid of those technical ranks since WWII, for instance. Has a military added a rank in the last century or so? What happens to people in the rank above? Do they get to keep their current rank, or drop down to the new one? And why might Starfleet want to get rid of the rank, and for what reason might they bring it back?
I'm tempted to ignore the official story and say that the ensign's single broken stripe is actually a lieutenant commander, while ensigns have no stripe. This would make the TMP uniform cuff rings the same as those in TOS. But for those who want to account for every detail on screen this may be unnacceptable--in TMP a character is actually addressed as "ensign," and he has the cuff ring. If there's a plausible reason why Starfleet might do away with the rank, and then change its mind a decade later...
Marian
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
It's just a goof. As we only saw those uniforms in one movie, and have no idea how long they were in service (no more than six or seven years, tops, based on "Cause and Effect")... I've found it can only be explained away through an excessive amount of mental maneuvering, so -- at least for the time being -- I just shrug and move on.
For that matter, I have a hard time with TOS ranks all the way from "The Cage" on up until Bob Fletcher completely started from scratch in TWoK. I know GR theoretically wanted a merely paramilitary service, with no way to draw a direct 1:1 real-world comparison to ranks, but people evidently couldn't wrap their brains around that, and GR himself was never very good at noodling out these technical details in a realistic way (look at his explanation for figuring stardates, due to out-of-sequence airing order).
I liked non-coms having narrow silver sleeve bands, as opposed to the officers' wider gold bands, but they were dropped for regular series production. For that, Bill Theiss redid the ranks to include a bit more graduation than "1 stripe = officer, 2 stripes = Captain", but stepped it down so what the Captain was wearing was the direct equivalent of a real-world US Navy Lieutenant Commander. This only became a problem because one can't distinguish Ensigns from noncoms from crewmen if all have no sleeve stripe.
GR didn't help matters by saying it was an "officers-only" specialist service, with all those slick-sleeved Ensigns serving as crew.
Bob did a good job of extrapolating an enlisted corps for TMP, but the commissioned ranks remained the same, with the above mentioned oversight. Me, I'd like to go back and recreate the pre-TOS/TOS rank structure from square one -- it doesn't have to be consistent with TFS/TNG, etc., but it should include a rank indicator for Ensign and a way to differentiate enlisted ranks.
--Jonah
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
I have no problem with ignoring one particular minor onscreen detail in the name of general consistancy. But I know not everyone feels that way, and if there is any plausible reason for dropping and then reaquiring a rank, I'm willing to go along with it.
As for enlisted ranks, I just close my eyes and pretend the rates from Bob's II-IV notes were always there. With the possible exception of "crewman" being changed to "able seaman." I'm of two minds about that one, and have also experimented with the contraction "ables'man."
But if enlisted personnel did have rank insignia, that would help distinguish between crewmen and ensigns. Likewise, I presume that enlisted ratings never wore the tunic/pants versions of the TMP uniform, only the jumpsuit.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Yes, the military did add a rank. Just recently the navy promoted I think 17 CWO4's (Chief Warrant Officer 4) to CWO5. The Army has had CWO5 for awhile now and the navy just added it to its rank structure. Also the rank of Fleet Admiral (5 stars) which I think Admiral Nimitz was the last one was done away with and I think the regs state that in certain times of war the President can bring it back. Those are the only examples that I know of of a rank going away and then coming back.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Buuuuut if I understand you correctly, the CWO5 rank was added to keep the navy's ranks equal to the army's. That wouldn't work as a reason for Starfleet.
Or would it? Maybe the Starfleet Marines dropped out "2nd lieutenant," or something, and Starfleet dropped out the j.g. rank to keep things even. And then ten years later decided that it was a dumb move, and brought the rank back.
Also, from your post I'd guess that if something like that did happen, the result of the rank being restored would be a whole lot of ensigns getting promoted, rather than full lieutenants getting dropped down.
I think I'd rather stick with the VFX error route, but for those who insist on accounting for every onscreen detail, here's one possible explanation.
Marian
PS: DISCLAIMER: This post should not be taken as an endorsement of the existence of a Starfleet Marine Corps. That's a separate and unrelated debate.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd think that Starfleet has re-structured it's command structure several times as new member-worlds were brought in.
Look at Bajor- they have a military structure using terms equivalent to the US army. In the DS9 relaunch books, a Major becomes a Commander and a Colonel translatesn into a Captain in Starfleet.
I'm sure there has been some starfleet concessions in terms to new members between the TMP era and TNG as the Marines were phased out (as example).
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well the only person I can consider close to an Army or Marine Corps officer in Starfleet is Colonel West in ST:TUC.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
But he was wearing the wrong rank to be a Colonel. And probably the wrong color too.
My theory is that "Colonel" is just a nickname, similar to "Constable" Odo, coincidentally played by the same person.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: But he was wearing the wrong rank to be a Colonel. And probably the wrong color too.
I don't recall his rank pin, but I recently had a thought about his division colour. According to Bob Fletcher's notes, the head of a department on a starship (e.g., chief engineer, chief science officer, etc) can opt to trade in his division colour undershirt for a white one, and white stripes on the right shoulder and left sleeve (albeit with a diagonal hash mark in the division colour). This was seen on Saavik in Star Trek III, and on lots of Starfleet Command personnel in Star Trek IV. Mr. Scott started wearing white too, although only after his promotion to captain. (Saavik, OTOH, couldn't wait to start flashing command colours, even though she was the CSO of a two-for-a-credit tub like Grissom. And only a lieutenant to boot. )
So it occured to me, maybe SFMC colonels can opt to wear white too. Although to be perfectly accurate, there should have been a hash mark with the Marines colour (whatever it is) on both the shoulder and sleeve stripes. Saavik's uniform in III was correct for a chief science officer--the gray hash mark is visible a couple of times. But I don't remeber if Scotty's was. Most of the time he wasn't wearing his tunic anyway, just the white undershirt and that thingamabob-studded tool vest.
Anybody see what kind of rank pin West was wearing? A colonel's usually analagous to a captain, but if it's something close--like a commander, or a commodore--it could probably be explained away. Or ignored as a VFX error.
Or, as you say, "colonel" could be an informal title. Or an honourary thing, like the old TOS "fleet captain" reference. Something similar to the RMN idea of making a starship captain an honourary marine colonel when they do something spectacular, but aren't quite ready to be promoted yet. As is so often the case, the data is scant and ambiguous and each person can interpret it however they prefer.
Marian
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
West was wearing Kirk's old Rear Admiral pin -- two ranks higher than Captain/Colonel. And Marines most likely are the cobalt blue we saw on the ground troops in TFF -- those togs being the combat uniforms. Love to extrapolate that structure further...
--Jonah
P.S. I have my own notions about Army ranks, Commodores, and Fleet Captains, but I'm not sure if you want me to launch into them in here. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: But he was wearing the wrong rank to be a Colonel. And probably the wrong color too.
My theory is that "Colonel" is just a nickname, similar to "Constable" Odo, coincidentally played by the same person.
His rank's a joke, Colonel West = Lt. Colonel Oliver North. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
...as plain as the birthmark on Gorbys head...
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: West was wearing Kirk's old Rear Admiral pin
Nope, it was a Vice Admiral pin.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Vice Admiral, sorry. You think I'd have gotten over mixing those up by now...
--Jonah
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
maybe he is a section 31 operative
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I don't see the connection. Being recruited by S31 doesn't have any bearing on rank.
--Jonah
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well as you notice, Sloan was wearing commanders rank everytime he appears to Bashir so maybe Col. West was just posing as one to promote his plan to the president. They are supposed to eliminate threats to the Federation. Maybe he was working in that capacity when he tried to assianate Azetbur and then Lt. Valeris.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Naaaa....Kirk and company al knew who Col. West was. He would've had to actually be a Commander.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Yes, "West" was secretly posing as a colonel while openly wearing a vice admiral's insignia. Very slick, those Section 31 guys.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Good way to keep em guessing
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Intruder1701: Well as you notice, Sloan was wearing commanders rank everytime he appears to Bashir --
Zuh? In "Inquisition" he was wearing some funky version of Captain's insignia, and in every other appearance he wasn't wearing a Starfleet uniform at all.
--Jonah
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Ok, this next question may not may not be related, but do the enlisted guys go to Starfleet Academy or is there some sort of "Starfleet boot camp"? I noticed that there are other universitys out there other then Starfleet Academy, theres the Vulcan Science Academy and the university on Betazed among others. So that brings me to my next question. Are there other sort of commisioning programs for officers such as ROTC or like we have in the navy Seaman to Admiral where enlisted crewmembers have the oppurtunity to become officers?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Star Trek II certainly implied that enlisted people trained alongside officer larva at the Academy, but they also had an attendee who was already a Lieutenant J.G. (Saavik), and confused midshipmen (Academy cadets) with enlisted personnel in the form of Peter Preston.
Most of the time, Star Trek forgets that enlisted people exist, as was discussed earlier in the thread. Even TNG: "Lower Decks" was about junior officers rather than enlisted people. And, of course, then there's the artist formerly known as Lieutenant O'Brien.
In short, no, there's no evidence of boot camps, or of OCS programs for enlisted personnel. Feel free to make up your own. One of my stories alludes to an enlisted basic training center at a place called Gallipoli, on Alpha Centauri A-IV. Feel free to borrow it if you like.
Marian
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Ok, this next question may not may not be related, but do the enlisted guys go to Starfleet Academy
Yep, in the DS9 episode "Empok Nor" two crewmen appeared who were at the Academy together.
Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
Well, in my fanfic (which isn't--quite--released yet BTW, but it's one of the bigger projects at SCN ) we are (or at least I am) are treating ensigns as being relatively high up in the chain of command, with all sorts of NCOs and crewmen. The distinction so far isn't as clear-cut in the works of the other writers, though.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:In short, no, there's no evidence of boot camps, or of OCS programs for enlisted personnel.
Then again, there has to be something along that line to account for Yeoman Rand. She was still wearing enlisted insignia in TMP, yet she was definitely in officer country in STVI.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I believe Chief O'Brien has said before that he didn't go to the Academy. He stated in one episode that the day before he was to ship off to a music academy he enlisted in Starfleet and shipped out.
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
In "The Drumhead" Crewman Simon Tarsis said he attended the Academy's "Enlisted Training Program".
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Is that realistic, eliminating a rank and then restoring it a decade later? I know real services have tinkered with their ranks to some extent--the US Army's gotten rid of those technical ranks since WWII, for instance. Has a military added a rank in the last century or so?
I think the rank of Field Marshal has been abolished (or is only available in times of war). I know the British army added/modified a couple of ranks during the Napoleonic period, the most notable being Colour Sergeant in 1813. The RN rank structure was also rationalised and expanded in the 19th century- the ranks of Lieutenant Commander and Commander were added and Commodore was made an actual rank rather than a position. I can't thin of an instance where a rank was got rid of and then re-intoduced though.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Originally posted by Peregrinus:
quote: P.S. I have my own notions about Army ranks, Commodores, and Fleet Captains, but I'm not sure if you want me to launch into them in here.
I was rereading this thread and caught this. By all means, launch away. If I like it, I'll steal it for my own use.
Marian
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Naaaa....Kirk and company al knew who Col. West was. He would've had to actually be a Commander.
And on what do you base this? No one of the Enterprise crew identifies the body. It's the Starfleet head honcho who unmasks him, and the voice that says "it's Colonel West" sounds like him, not any of Kirk's people.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Pardon me for resurrecting an old thread, but this has on my mind lately. (On the other hand, I've also been down with the flu this week, so maybe it's just delirium.)
As I expand my breakdown of officers on the TMP-ST VI Enterprise to include enlisted crew, I've run into some more questions that have me stumped. Once again I'd like to "think out loud" and see what other minds and fresh perspectives can come up with.
quote:Quoth me: Do you think Starfleet ships have bosuns?
What exactly do bosuns do? Why is it not enough, from a standpoint of personnel management, to have enlisted personnel report to the officer in charge of whatever section they're assigned to?
For example, say there's a transporter operator, Petty Officer Skirn. He has a superior in the form of whatever junior officer is in charge of the transporter rooms. Junior reports, in turn, to the Chief Engineer, who reports to the First Officer. So what does the bosun do for PO Skirn that Junior can't?
Also, the term "bosun" seems out of place in Starfleet, even in the company of "yeoman" and "midshipman" et al. I'm at a loss to come up with an alternative term.
Another puzzle is machinist's mates. Presumable, someone has the job of providing routine maintainance and minor repair (as opposed to damage control) on various systems. Bob Fletcher's chart included an entry for "machinist's mates" in the Engineering department.
Up until now what I've been doing is assigning one or more machinist's mates to each department, as part of their normal watch. For example, a phaser room watch consists of an NCO in charge, two gunner's mates, and a machinist's mate. But that's starting to look wrong to me. It would take them out of Engineering and put them in whatever department they're assigned to--unless they stay in Engineering, in which case they aren't under the command of the officer in charge of their department. Which sounds awkward at best.
I'm up to 143 crew so far, incidentally. Transporter Control is the biggest so far, with 18 NCOs and 19 enlisted, plus the two officers on my old breakdown.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Ok here is what I came up with Bosuns- In TWOK when Kirk comes onto the Enterprise for the training cruise you see a crewman blowing a whistle piping him aboard. Thats typically a bosuns job. On my last ship Bosuns were in charge of the small boats that we had, so maybe they could be in charge of small shuttlecraft or something. They were also in charge of the lifeboats and stood bridge watches, so maybe they could maintain the escape pods.
Machinist Mates- I have thought about this too. I have put Machinist Mates down in Engineering working on the warp drive, deflector array and other major componants and in a seperate division in the Engineering Department (Ships Services Division). Here they fix replicators, holodecks, and other crew comforts. They could also augment the bosuns in fixing shuttlecraft engines. Just a few ideas that I have been kicking around. Hope it helps any. Oh I would like to see that chart you have and maybe I could give you a hand with it.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
On Machinist's Mates: some of the movie era non-canon deckplans, notably the ones for the Akula class is SotSF2, have fabrication machinery, which I presume is intended to be the forerunner of replicators. The Machinist (and his Mates) might work these systems.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
quote:Quoth Intruder1701: Oh I would like to see that chart you have and maybe I could give you a hand with it.
The only chart I've made so far is the breakdown of officers earlier in this thread, along with a few rough notes about who stands watch in a particular room and what they do.
For example:
quote:Landing Bay Control Room: Standard shift consists of a CPO who's in charge of the station, and four crewmen: two traffic controlmen and two tractor beam operators.
Total: 3 NCO, 12 crew
I'm operating under the assumption that machinist's mates are the people who are tasked with maintaining and repairing the ship's systems in general, not any specific item. The question is how they would be organized. Would they be expected to learn everything about everything, or would they specialize to some degree?
In the USN, how much is the operator of any given piece of hardware responsible for maintaining it? Is the guy who aims and fires missiles on a CG expected to do routine maintainance on his console? If nothing happens when he presses the button, is he expected to pull the panel off and fix it himself?
If I remember correctly, the film Crimson Tide implied this. The guys who operate the communications systems were the ones struggling to repair them.
As for bosuns, I meant the term in the RMN sense of a seniormost NCO who is in charge of all the enlisted personnel on the ship. Is there no equivalent in modern navies?
Thanks for all the help and insights.
Marian
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Well on my ship we had a ships bosun who was a former enlisted boatswains mate who became commisioned I think he was an ensign. He was in charge of 1st division which was made up of enlisted boatswain mates (Petty Officers and one CPO). They were in charge of mooring lines and such. We also had a fuels bosun who was a Warrant Officer in charge of all the aviation fuel we had for the airplanes, an Air Bosun who was in charge of the crash and salvage crew for flight deck crashes, a catupults. They were all former enlisted boatswains mates who became officers.
As far as your questions, for the most part no an operator for a console usually does not make major repairs. For instance say a Radarman is working at his console and notices that it isnt working properly. He will troubleshoot it and if he finds it beyond his capability (Normally turning it off and back on again) he will then ask an Electronics Techinician to take a look at it and this individual will be the one to tear it apart and try to fix it.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Though I think we should note that most repairs we see on TV are of the "if not fixed in five minutes everyone dies" variety, which limits the number of specialists one can get before, well, everyone dies; thus placing a bit more encouragment behind such DIY projects.
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Right, I guess I'll leave bosuns to the RMN, then.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Current progress:
I'm at 489 (72 officers and 417 crew), and still have several gaps in Engineering and the cargo bay. So these numbers will need to be tweaked if I'm going to keep the final total under 500. But here they are for now.
Totals in (parenthasis) are low, because there are still gaps in Engineering and Services.
Generally, you can divide a section by 3 to find the number of people who man the section on any given shift. Most sections have 1 extra enlisted person, who is a yeoman assigned to the section's officers. Where there are fewer than 3 officers, see the original version of this list on page 6 of this thread for the explanation.
A notable exception to the above is Damage Control, where 6 of the 9 NCOs don't man the Damage Control Center, but instead lead damage control parties, and 1 enlisted person per shift is on the main bridge, manning the Damage Control station there.
COMMAND DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 2 SO, 0 JO, 1 NCO, 1 ENLISTED
CAPTAIN: 1 SO
FIRST OFFICER: 1 SO
BOSUN: 1 NCO
CAPTAIN�S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 33 JO, (55) NCO, (169) ENLISTED
CHIEF ENGINEERING OFFICER: 1 SO
MAIN ENGINEERING: 3 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
IMPULSE ENGINEERING: 3 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
BATTERY ROOM: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
MAINTAINANCE & REPAIR: 2 JO, 9 NCO, 37 ENLISTED
DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER: 3 JO, 9 NCO, 16 ENLISTED
RADIATION CONTROL: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
TRANSPORTER OPERATIONS: 2 JO, 18 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
ENERGY-FIELD OPERATIONS: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
TECHNICAL SUPPLY: 1 JO, 1 ENLISTED
PHASER ROOM: : 2 JO, 3 NCO, 19 ENLISTED
TORPEDO ROOM OFFICERS: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 13 ENLISTED
HELMSMEN 3 JO
LANDING BAY CONTROL ROOM: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 31 ENLISTED
HANGER DECK OFFICERS: 2 JO, ??? NCO, ??? ENLISTED
SHUTTLE CREWS: 4 NCO, 4 ENLISTED
MAIN COMPUTER OPERATIONS OFFICERS: 2 JO, 3 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
SCIENCES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 17 JO, 27 NCO, 58 ENLISTED
CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER: 1 SO
NAVIGATION: 3 JO
SENSOR ROOM: 3 JO, 3 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
COMMUNICATIONS: 3 JO
ANTHROPOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ARCHAEOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ASTRONOMIST/ASTROPHYSICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
BIOLOGIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
CHEMIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
GENETICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
MATHEMATICIAN: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
PHYSICIST: 1 JO, 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
SECURITY DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 2 JO, 3 NCO, 27 ENLISTED
CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER: 1 SO
SECURITY OFFICERS: 2 JO
SECURITY TEAMS: 3 NCO, 27 ENLISTED
MEDICAL DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 5 JO, 5 NCO, 25 ENLISTED
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: 1 SO
MEDICAL OFFICERS: 2 JO
PSYCHOTHERAPIST: 1 JO
DENTIST: 1 JO
RECREATION OFFICER: 1 JO
CHIEF NURSE: 1 NCO
ASST. CHIEF NURSE: 2 NCO
RECREATION PERSONNEL: 2 NCO
NURSES: 12 CREW
MEDICAL TECHNICIANS: 9 ENLISTED
MEDICAL RESEARCH TECHNICIANS: 4 ENLISTED
SERVICES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 8 JO, (6) NCO, (40) ENLISTED
I would put the weapons guys in the Security Department rather then in Engineering
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Shipboard weapons would be a whole seperate thing though: on a TOS ship, it makes sense to have them in engineering (assuming there's no specialized control room for such things- like mabye in the saucer- securely above the lower planetary sensor)
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
I put Gunnery in Engineering Division in this era because that's where it is in Bob Fletcher's notes.
It may be different in the 24th century, but at this point, Security is just shipboard police and landing party cannon fodder.
Mind you, this doesn't mean the weapons people are physically in the engine room, just that they're part of the same department. The torpedo room on the TMP Enterprise is obviously at the bottom of the dorsal, with the magazine one deck above, and Shane Johnson's Mr. Scott's Guide puts the phaser room at the center of H Deck, directly below the auxiliary bridge.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Query: How many people should work in the cargo bay? This is a place that would be very busy while the ship's in port, but almost unused while underway.
Crew members from other departments and dockside people would probably round out the numbers in port, but I'm at a loss regarding how many people--if any--should be permanently assigned. I'm sure it doesn't take a trained specialist to crack open one of those crates and load a pallet, but what if the ship is transporting something hazardous?
Opinions?
Marian
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Would a quartermaster be placed in a cargo bay?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Only 1/4th of it.
*ching*
I assume the quartermaster is in charge of it. But I already have the officers worked out (see previous page); it's the enlisted crew of the TMP Enterprise I'm trying to figure out hard numbers for.
Marian
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Hey, I just noticed my list has both quartermasters and cargo bay officers. If I eliminate that redundancy, that frees up the extra 2 officers I need to restructure the science department, while staying within the 72-officer limit.
Thanks, Dat.
Anyone on this board who's worked in research? How many lab techs or whatever should each science officer have?
Marian
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Barclay and other engineering people were doing cargo bay stuff in "Hollow Pursuits".
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"Busy Work" for the problem crewmembers when imporntant things need to be done. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Did you just say 'imporntant'?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
He says that a lot, but I'm going to go out on one of my non-existent limbs here and say this time it was actually intentional.
(I'd have expected him to make a typo in his joke and spell it as "important", though.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I try to sneak "porn" into every conversation.
Keeps the endless discussion of Trek from getting too stale....
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
The (currently) final version. Ever have to balance your checkbook, and the numbers don't add up right no matter how many times you do it? This added up twice, but that doesn't mean there aren't still errors...
Both Sciences and Security have both gotten larger, which I'm happy with -- they seemed undernourished before.
A longer version detailing every single job exists, but it's in the form of six spreadsheets, and I have no idea how I would post it here.
Anyway, here it is, for what it's worth:
COMMAND DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 2 SO, 0 JO, 1 NCO, 1 ENLISTED
CAPTAIN: 1 SO
FIRST OFFICER: 1 SO
BOSUN'S MATE: 1 NCO
CAPTAIN�S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 24 JO, 82 NCO, 168 ENLISTED
DIVISION
CHIEF ENGINEERING OFFICER: 1 SO
CHIEF ENGINEER'S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
ENGINES AND POWER
MAIN BRIDGE ENGINEERING STATION: 3 JO
MAIN ENGINEERING: 3 JO, 9 NCO, 33 ENLISTED
IMPULSE ENGINEERING: 3 JO, 6 NCO, 18 ENLISTED
BATTERY ROOMS: 6 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
CIRCUIT BREAKER ROOMS: 6 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ENVIRONMENTAL: 3 NCO, 15 ENLISTED
TRANSPORTER ROOM
TRANSPORTER OPERATIONS: 2 JO, 18 NCO, 18 ENLISTED
MANEUVERING & ORDNANCE
HELMSMEN 3 JO
BRIDGE WEAPONS CONTROL STATION: 3 NCO
ORDNANCE OPERATIONS OFFICER: 2 JO
PHASER ROOM: 3 NCO, 6 ENLISTED
ENERGY-FIELD STATION: 3 NCO, 3 ENLISTED
TORPEDO ROOM: 3 NCO, 12 ENLISTED
MAINTAINANCE & REPAIR
MAINTAINANCE & REPAIR OPERATIONS OFFICER: 2 JO
MAIN BRIDGE AUXILIARY SYSTEMS MONITOR: 3 ENLISTED
MAINTAINANCE TEAMS: 3 NCO, 9 ENLISTED
DAMAGE CONTROL
DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER: 3 JO, 3 NCO
MAIN BRIDGE DAMAGE CONTROL MONITORING STATION: 3 ENLISTED
DAMAGE CONTROL TEAMS: 6 NCO
TECHNICAL SUPPLY
TECHNICAL SUPPLY OFFICER: 1 JO
TECHNICAL SUPPLY OFFICER'S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
LANDING BAY OPERATIONS
LANDING BAY OPERATONS OFFICER: 2 JO
LANDING BAY CONTROL ROOM: 3 NCO, 12 ENLISTED
PRIMARY HULL DOCKING COMPLEXES: 6 ENLISTED
SHUTTLE CREWS: 4 NCO, 4 ENLISTED
FLIGHT DECK: 3 NCO, 12 ENLISTED
SCIENCES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 24 JO, 2 NCO, 29 ENLISTED
DIVISION
CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER: 1 SO
CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER'S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
NAVIGATION & SENSORS
MAIN BRIDGE NAVIGATOR'S STATION: 3 JO
MAIN BRIDGE SCIENCES STATION: 3 NCO
SENSOR TECHNICIAN: 6 ENLISTED
COMMUNICATIONS
COMMUNICATIONS: 3 JO
COMPUTER OPERATIONS
COMPUTER OPERATIONS OFFICER: 2 JO
MAIN COMPUTER ROOM: 1 NCO, 5 ENLISTED
BACKUP COMPUTER ROOM: 1 NCO, 5 ENLISTED
RESEARCH & ANALYSIS
ASTROPHYSICS: 2 JO
PLANETOLOGY: 2 JO
HISTORY & ARCHAEOLOGY: 2 JO
ANTHROPOLOGY & SOCIOLOGY: 2 JO
ZOOLOGY: 2 JO
BOTANY: 2 JO
GENETICS: 2 JO
CHEMISTY & PHYSICS: 2 JO
LAB TECHNICIAN: 12 ENLISTED
SECURITY DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 6 JO, 6 NCO, 61 ENLISTED
DIVISION
CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER: 1 SO
CHIEF SECURITY OFFICER'S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
SECURITY TEAMS
TEAM ONE: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
TEAM TWO: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
TEAM THREE: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
TEAM FOUR: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
TEAM FIVE: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
TEAM SIX: 1 JO, 1 NCO, 10 ENLISTED
MEDICAL DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 6 JO, 5 NCO, 29 ENLISTED
DIVISION
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: 1 SO
CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER'S YEOMAN: 1 ENLISTED
SICKBAY[/B]
MEDICAL OFFICERS: 3 JO
PSYCHOTHERAPIST: 1 JO
DENTIST: 1 JO
CHIEF NURSE: 1 NCO
ASST. CHIEF NURSE: 3 NCO
NURSES: 12 ENLISTED
MEDICAL TECHNICIANS: 9 ENLISTED
MEDICAL RESEARCH TECHNICIANS: 4 ENLISTED
RECREATION
RECREATION OFFICER: 1 JO
RECREATION PERSONNEL: 1 NCO, 3 ENLISTED
SERVICES DEPARTMENT ROSTER: 1 SO, 5 JO, 10 NCO, 34 ENLISTED
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mind is ozzing more so we need to tighten the tornique more around your neck... 'side's, Intruder1701's input is dead on. a little too dead on for my liking but agreable. i've served on Gator's myself for my sea time. and DC is hard, look at the comendable acts of heroism the crew of the Cole did to save their ship. i've seen some really amazing pics they did to repair damage that occured after the attack. horrifying... Those folks on small boys are tuff fuckers, no doubts there...
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