quote:

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DAX
The Vulcan science vessel T'Pan is requesting permission to dock.

KIRA
Put her at Docking Bay Three.

DAX
The Wellington has finished refueling. It should decouple within the hour.

KIRA
Got it.

---

quote:

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WORF (telling story)
I was seventeen and serving as an ensign on the U.S.S. Hawk. We were two days out of port when this anomaly hit us --

---

Found these nuggets interesting, thought I'd share.
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
So Worf started in Starfleet at 13?
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Wow, that's awesome!

I should have checked through more scripts after you turned up that Garuda reference in "Shakaar" last year.

Good work, once again! My hero!

-MMoM
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Captain Boh:
So Worf started in Starfleet at 13?

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According to his computer bio from "Conundrum" (TNG) he entered the Academy in 2357, at the age of 17. So it would appear that the Hawk was a training vessel.
 

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Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
 
John M Ford's The Final Reflection (for a long time the definitive Klingon novel) has Klingons maturing faster than humans, so 17 would be early 20s in human terms. This is somewhat supported by Alexander's bizarre aging.

OTOH this early maturity was part of an overall shorter lifespan which is contrary to Koloth, et all still being around in the 2270s.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Then again, perhaps no Klingon ever really got to test their "natural" lifespan before?

Having Worf be an ensign at seventeen, at an age when Picard wasn't even a cadet yet, is not objectionable per se. We don't know if there are entry age limitations in existence - we know Picard tried officer training at seventeen while others seem to have entered at eighteen, but that could be a mere coincidence, or something specific to human candidates.

The objectionable part would be having Worf spend so much time at these low ranks, if the references to his age during the shows hold true (he must have been at least six during the Khitomer massacre, etc). Then again, moving up from Ensign doesn't seem to be a major prestige issue in Starfleet, and might not have been one for Worf, either. Despite his obsession with the Klingon honor propaganda, he never appeared to be hungry for promotions. It could be that hunger for promotions ISN'T part of the propaganda version of honorable Klingon conduct, of course.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
I think the basis for Captain Boh's remark is that, so far as us civilians know, one gets to be an ensign after spending four years at the Academy. In other words, if Worf entered Starfleet at 17, he still wouldn't be an ensign until 21. And Star Trek has consistantly referred to Academy attendees as cadets, not ensigns.


Marian
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
*cough*Kirk on the Republic*cough*

Mark
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
...or Nog.

I'm rather liking the idea that perhaps Worf was able to enter the Academy at a younger age because...again, of the Klingons faster rate of maturity.

Of course, it does contradict the "Conundrum" display...

However, consider his three-quarter Klingon son who could walk and talk rather coherently at age 1 ("Reunion" - 2367) and serving as a crewman aboard the Rotarran by age 8 ("Sons and Daughters" - 2374)!! Granted its a stretch but unfortunately that's the way it happened...
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 

quote:

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it does contradict the "Conundrum" display

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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it does contradict the "Conundrum" display

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Which display? Worf's bio wasn't shown.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
I should have checked through more scripts after you turned up that Garuda reference in "Shakaar" last year.

---

quote:

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The Chronology seems to indicate that was one...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:
And, considering that MacDuff wasn't even real, anything seen in those records has to be considered suspect.

---

Well, there are indeed some errors in those records. Crusher is just a Lt. Cmdr., the first name of Troi's Father is Alex, and Ro Laren entered the Academy in 2358 and graduated in 2364 while her bio in "The Next Phase" shows 2358 and 2362.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
"Conundrum" was one of the first eps of TNG I saw... like in the first handful... so you can guess having McDuff turn up sort of threw me for a while!
 

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Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MarianLH:
And Star Trek has consistantly referred to Academy attendees as cadets, not ensigns.

Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
*cough*Kirk on the Republic*cough*

---

quote:

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WORF (magnanimous)
Obviously, Bareil is a better thief than I gave him credit for. (grabbing a flask) More bloodwine?

BAREIL
Why not.

WORF
Now I will tell you one of my stories.

BAREIL
And I suppose every word of it will be true.

WORF
Mostly.

Worf finishes pouring the bloodwine, and begins telling his story to Bareil.

WORF
I was seventeen and serving as an ensign on the U.S.S. Hawk. We were two days out of port when this anomaly hit us --

As Worf goes on with his tale, Dax leans over to Kira.

DAX (sotto voce; re: Bareil)
I'll say this for him, he might not be as spiritual as Vedek Bareil -- but he's a lot more fun.

Kira smiles... she might not agree fully with Dax's statement, but she's happy to know her friends like her "date."

---

So that is that.


Additionally, just because Worfs bio wasn't seen on screen...and I'll admit I haven't seen the episode in ages, it doesnt mean one was seen offscreen. If Okuda wrote the Chronology (v1.0) and made the display, he of all people would know what Worfs bio said...but again, I haven't seeen the episode in ages.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
It seems the context of Worf's story casts a shadow of doubt on the veracity of its contents...

But really, I wouldn't mind Worf entering the Academy at 13.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Woodside Kid:
Maybe, maybe not. The dialogue from "Court-Martial" states that Kirk and Finney became friends while Kirk was a midshipman. Kirk then says that some years later they were assigned to the same ship. The dialogue never mentions that Republic was a training ship, so it's just as likely (if not more probable) that this event occurred after Kirk graduated.

---

But Kirk referred to being a Lieutenant aboard the the Farragut as his "first assignment" out of the Academy in "Obsession." Thus, his previous Ensign-Republic assignment took place while he was still there.

The Chronology contains a note about this apparent confusion, citing that it is not impossible (though uncommon) for cadets to receive commissions to such low ranks as Ensign while still attending contemporary naval academies. For what that's worth.

As long as Worf said "ensign" and not some higher rank like lieutenant, he would only be covering the same ground Kirk had.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

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As long as Worf said "ensign" and not some higher rank like lieutenant, he would only be covering the same ground Kirk had.

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quote:

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But Kirk referred to being a Lieutenant aboard the the Farragut as his "first assignment" out of the Academy in "Obsession."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by B.J.:
A cadet being an ensign I can understand, but wasn't Savvik a Lieutenant while she was a cadet for the training cruise on the Enterprise in ST2?

B.J.

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Maybe she graduated from Starfleet Academy as a science officer, served aboard a starship and then went back to Academy for command training.
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
yes, I don't think it likely that someone would get that kind of command training in the standard academy course. If the Enterprise bridge crew had to be around for everyone's command tests...
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Ok, I'm trying to get this mess sorted out, and "show my work" a bit more than the Okudas did. It seems that they drew some major faulty conclusions based on incomplete examination of the evidence. Be prepared for some re-hash.

Basic assumptions, with which some might argue:

• "Where No Man Has Gone Before" takes place in 2265.
  Icheb mentioned in "Q2" (VGR) that Kirk's 5-year mission ended in 2270, indicating that it began in 2265. Depending on whether or not the episode's stardate indicates it as being over a year into the mission (though of this I am quite dubious) it might actually take place in early 2266, skewing the dates based on this episode.
• Cadets generally enroll in the Academy at age 17, the minimum age allowed.
  This is a bit more aguable, since it is never cited in any episode, but it is established by the TOS writer's guide, and seems to hold true in most (if not all) cases. We know from later references that SFA is generally a four-year institution, though it's possible that certain individuals may graduate early or be held back an extra year depending on their performance.

• Kirk is born in Iowa.
  His age was given as 34 in "The Deadly Years" (TOS), set in 2267.

• Gary Mitchell is born.
  His age was given as 23 on his personnel report in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (TOS).

• Kirk enters Starfleet Academy.
  Age 17, as established by the TOS writer's guide.
• Kirk meets Gary Mitchell.
  The Okudas failed to completely evaluate the references in WNMHGB on this issue. Kirk says he had known Mitchell for 15 years. However, Mitchell would be only 8 years old at this time, so he certainly wasn't a fellow cadet. More likely Kirk was acquainted with his family or something. In any case, the Okudas were mistaken in assuming they met when Mitchell was Kirk's student. They had already known each other 9 years previously!
• One of Kirk's instructors as a midshipman is Ben Finney, and the two become close friends. Some years later, One of his instructors as a midshipman is Ben Finney, with whom he becomes close friends. Some years the two will serve together aboard the U.S.S. Republic.
  "Court Martial" (TOS). The Okudas seem to have missed the fact that Kirk and Finney's Republic stint (during which Kirk was an ensign) was some years after Finney was his instructor. Which means that it needn't necessarily have occurred while he was still at the Academy, though it may have, nonetheless. As Spike mentioned, "Obsession" (TOS) made two specific references; that in 2257 Kirk was a lieutenant aboard the Farragut under Captain Garrovick, and that Garrovick had been Kirk's commanding officer "from the day...[Kirk]...left the Academy." So it seems possible that Garrovick had commanded the Republic while Kirk and Finney served on her, and then took command of the Farragut, to which Kirk also transferred. However, there may be a small problem with this. Kirk was already a lieutenant when he conducted a planetary survey of Neural (see below) the same year he graduated. (See below.) Was he aboard the Republic then, or was he already aboard the Farragut? The latter seems more likely, because the Farragut was his "first deep-space assignment" according to "Obsession." So Kirk's graduation and commission to ensign, service aboard the Republic, transfer to the Farragut under the same CO, and promotion to lieutenant all occurred within one year. Or, alternatively, the Republic could indeed have been a pre-graduation assignment and Kirk was just special enough to attain rank while still a cadet. It's rather open-ended, but "Whom Gods Destroy" offers some further points that might be helpful.

• Kirk attends the Academy. He and Ben Finney serve aboard the Republic.
• Kirk participates in a peace mission to Axanar after Garth of Izar's victory there. Kirk is awarded the Palm Leaf of Axanar.
  "Whom Gods Destroy" (TOS) and "Court Martial" (TOS), respectively. This assignment was before he received his commission. Could it have been aboard the Republic, and could it help explain how Kirk might attain ensign rank before graduating the Academy? This would be my theory of choice. The conflict at Axanar was apparently or great historical importance and had something to do with Vulcans (or perhaps aliens in general) and humans becoming "brothers." Kirk apparently played a prominent role in the subsequent peace mission (winning the Palm Leaf) and he just may have distinguished himself enough to have pulled off his early promotion.

• Kirk graduates the Academy.
  See notes above. Personally, I think he had already attained ensign rank at this point and had been serving on the Republic.
• Promoted to lieutenant, Kirk conducts a planetary survey on Neural and befriends a hunter named Tyree.
  13 years prior to "A Private Little War" (TOS). As reasoned above, he was (probably) already aboard the Farragut at this point, under the command of Captain Garrovick.

• Lt. Kirk is serving on the Farragut, when it is attacked by a dikironium cloud creature. 200 people, half the ship's crew, are killed, including Captain Garrovick. Kirk had been operating the ship's phasers at the time of the incident, and blamed himself for having hesitated when firing on the creature, though in fact his momentary delay had no effect on the outcome of the attack.
  Eleven years prior to "Obsession" (TOS).

• Gary Mitchell enters Starfleet Academy. One of his instructors is Kirk, whom he had already known since his adolescence.
  Assumes Mitchell was 17 at the time of entrance.

At some point between this and 2264-65 (depending on when Kirk took command of the Enterprise in relation to when the 5-year mission started) Kirk gets back on the command track and is promoted to Captain. According to the TOS writer's guide, he was the youngest Captain in Starfleet at the time, and his first command (during which he asks for Mitchell to serve under him, and we may presume the incident on Dimorus described in WNMHGB occurred) was a destroyer-type vessel.

Ahh, there we go. Playing historian is aggravating but fun at the same time.

As to Worf and the Hawk, there are basically four scenarios I can think of:

• Scenario 1
  Worf began his Starfleet career early due to his accelerated Klingon development and served on the Hawk after being commissioned as an ensign.
  Pros: Consistent with what we've seen of Klingon growth patterns.
  Cons: Inconsistent with SFA's minimum age requirement as established in TOS writer's guide and with Worf's personnel report that was created for and may or may not have been seen in "Conundrum" (TNG).
• Scenario 2
  Worf somehow attained ensign rank while still a cadet and served on the Hawk as part of his Academy training.
  Pros: Consistent with age requirement and biographical data, and is precedented to some extent by one interpretation of Kirk's record as presented above. (Though admittedly, Kirk probably didn't get his rank in his freshman year.)
  Cons: Improbable without the aid of very liberal dose of Suspension of Disbelief^TM.
• Scenario 3
  When Worf says he was "serving as an ensign aboard the U.S.S. Hawk," he is referring either to some sort of field commission or situation such as we saw with Wesley Crusher on the Enterprise-D. He wasn't yet a commissioned officer, but was referring to his position rather than actual rank.
  Pros: Consitent with age requirement and biographical data, and is perhaps precedented by Nog's field commission to ensign or Wesley's "acting ensign" role.
  Cons: Nothing particularly big except it takes some creative thinking to come up with circumstances that might justify it. (The Cardassian Wars were ongoing at this point, perhaps the Hawk was a cadet ship that got caught in combat and Worf saved they day? Just one possibility.) I think my money is on this one. It's more likely than #2.
• Scenario 4
  Worf was simply drunk, and either misquoted his age or exaggerated his rank as part of his "mostly true" story.
  Pros: Seems like a possibility given the situation as described by Futurama Guy, but I'm sure it would have to be his rank that he embellished. I can't really see Worf being touchy about his age and trying to make himself look younger...
  Cons: Can anyone say cop-out!?

-MMoM
 

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Posted by MirrorCaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
 
couple of points, here:

-> Starfleet would of course have to edit its minimum age requirement for other species growth requirements. (Imagine why there would be no Ocampa in SF...) If the standard collegiate learning age for Klingons is in their early teens, that's when they'd have to admit him.

-> a rarely mentioned tidbit is that Peter Preston was supposed to be a 15 or 16 year old cadet in original drafts of TWOK, reinforcing the horatio hornblower influences on that flm...
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
IIRC, though they did refer to him as a midshipman, Preston's uniform indicated he was an NCO.
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

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IIRC, though they did refer to him as a midshipman, Preston's uniform indicated he was an NCO.

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quote:

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It seems that they drew some major faulty conclusions based on incomplete examination of the evidence.

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quote:

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Basic assumptions, with which some might argue:(*rest snipped for brevity*)

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quote:

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According to the TOS writer's guide, he was the youngest Captain in Starfleet at the time, and his first command (during which he asks for Mitchell to serve under him, and we may presume the incident on Dimorus described in WNMHGB occurred) was a destroyer-type vessel.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by MarianLH:
Actually he wasn't even that. His rank pin was that of an Able Seaman, the naval equivalent of Private*. An NCO is a non-commissioned officer--a petty officer or up (or a corporal on up, in army parlance).

---

quote:

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Although my personal pet peeve is all the unnecessary pre-1700 Constitution registries.

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quote:

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Good, solid speculation...There are two issues I would take with it, one minor and one major.

---

quote:

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The minor one is that I prefer a 2264-69 dating for the five-year mission. ("Voyager" is guilty of so many consistancy errors that I have no problem ignoring "evidence" from it.) This is, however, my own interpretation; use or ignore as you like.

---

I don't prejudice myself against data points because they come from any particular series. It was stated clearly and explicitly in an aired episode that Kirk's 5-year mission ended in 2270. This is not inconsistent with any reference in any other episode of any other series. Furthermore, it acknowledges the existence of the animated seasons. Why on Earth would anyone want to discredit it?

quote:

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The major one is that, whatever a prop might have said, the actual protrayal of Gary Mitchell is not of someone just a couple years out of the academy, or someone who had a subordinate, mentor/student relationship with Kirk. Rather, they were of an age, and close friends.

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quote:

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In the novel Strangers From The Sky (IMHO, the best Star Trek novel ever written), Mitchel is a year or two older than Kirk, who had only recently surpassed him in rank in his meteoric rise to captain. I love this book, precisely because Bonnano's characters and their relationships ring so true, and could never accept something so incompatible with her portrayal.

---

quote:

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Vonda McIntyre's novel Enterprise gives this ship a name, the USS Lydia Sutherland. Mitchel was Commander Kirk's XO. The ship is also mentioned briefly in McIntyre's novelization of Star Trek IV. I had no idea, before reading your post, that McIntyre's speculation had any basis in fact.

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Always glad to bring something new to light. Hope I haven't seemed overly confrontational in this post.

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:
Monkey: Your fourth scenario isn't really a cop-out. How can you cop out of an explanation when one isn't required in the first place? The lines were cut. The "explanation" is: Worf never made any claims to being an ensign at age 17 in the first place.

---

Tsk tsk, Timmy. Where's the fun (or the shiplist entry) in that?

-MMoM
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
While I agree that Kirk must be Mitchell's senior in terms of Starfleet training, I must emphatically deny the onscreen reference to Mitchell's physical age. *NO WAY* this man was 23 during the episode. (Never mind the impossibility of achieving Lt.Cmdr rank at that age...)

The reference to an age of 23 Earth years is as insane as calling Dehner "21 years old". The only way to allow for these records (which get the heights of the characters wrong, too) is IMHO to say that these aren't Earth years at all. Either these are the years of their respective birth planets, or then "AGE" stands for "Average Growth Exponent" or something like that...

I'm happy to go with the concept that Mitchell is a bit older than Kirk. He would simply have entered the Academy at a slightly later age than Kirk.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Where is this idea that Mitchell would be older than Kirk coming from? What ever suggested it, even discounting the age on his file?

Gary Lockwood is younger than William Shatner by six years.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"Tsk tsk, Timmy. Where's the fun (or the shiplist entry) in that?"

Well, considering that you just said "I could never accept the words of a non-canonical novel---even the best one ever written---over onscreen fact", you suddenly seen very eager to accept other non-canon info. I mean, what can be more non-canon than something that they made a concious decision to explicitly not include on the show?
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
He's eager to accept background information which isn't contradicted by onscreen facts.
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
But only a cursory examination of those diplayed records shows them to be wrong. The heights are wrong. There is no way Dehner is 21. Look at the stardates of their birth: I know that the TOS system isn't the most consistent when it comes to this, but those stardates seem to indicate that both characters are less than two months old!

With regards to Preston: Surely a spoken line should be considered more important than a rank pin? Otherwise Tuvok is a Lt Commander at the beginning of Voyager, and Valeris is...whatever the hell she was. (This obviously discounts the rank-nightmare instance of O'Brien.)

quote:

---

This clearly indicates that Kirk was Mitchell's instructor from his initial arrival at the Academy, and that he was already a lieutenant at the time. There really isn't any arguing with it.

---

quote:

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With regards to Preston: Surely a spoken line should be considered more important than a rank pin?

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quote:

---

With regards to Preston: Surely a spoken line should be considered more important than a rank pin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Timo:
And Peter Preston need not be a trainee at all. When Kirk interviews him, he's self-identified as an already "graduated" enlisted man, not as a trainee or cadet of any sort, right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
Nope, he identified himself as a Midshipman 1^st class.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Timo:
What? Doesn't he say "Engineer's Mate 1st Class"?

---

 

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Posted by Manticore (Member # 1227) on :
 
Don'tcha just love contradictions in the same sentence?

Maybe in Starfleet, midshipman for some inane reason refers to both enlisted trainees and officer cadets?
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
I'm guessing Midshipman 1st Class is the designation of 4th year Adcademy cadet (at the time), while Engineer's Mate would just be a position aboard ship.
 

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Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
 
Doesn't usually "midshipman" refer to, precisely, a cadet on a training cruise? That would be a rank (below ensign, as he/she hasn't become a commissioned officer yet), as opposed to a position. With "1st class" meaning he's in his last year at the academy.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by machf:
Doesn't usually "midshipman" refer to, precisely, a cadet on a training cruise? That would be a rank (below ensign, as he/she hasn't become a commissioned officer yet), as opposed to a position. With "1st class" meaning he's in his last year at the academy.

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quote:

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but at least TOS didn't utilize the Lt(j.g.) rank, or did they?

---

Yes, it did. Lt. JG Joe Tormolen for example.
 

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Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
TSN:
As to my take on scripts and deleted/cut scenes, hopefully I'll have the new format of my shiplist up and running soon enough, and then you shall see...

Futurama Guy:
No one said Kirk was a lieutenant while still attending the academy. I had hoped my little chronology would have cleared that up. He was an ensign, then presumably promoted to lieutenant junior grade on graduation, and then to lieutenant.

-MMoM
 

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Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
 
Hmmm... maybe to attend Command School they must have graduated from the Academy first (IOW, completed the usual 4 years and go for some more), and are appointed a temporary lieutenant rank...
("3rd lieutenant" or something like that would be my guess, based on Starship Troopers...)
 

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Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
 
3rd Lieutenant doesn't really fit in with Trek officer/enlistee rankings.
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
First, apologies for my lately-come response. My internet connection got whacked yesterday morning.


Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

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Where is this idea that Mitchell would be older than Kirk coming from? What ever suggested it, even discounting the age on his file?

Gary Lockwood is younger than William Shatner by six years.

---

From the novel, as I said. Age is never specifically mentioned, but Mitchell repeatedly addresses Kirk as "kid," and although they are depicted as close friends rather than mentor/student, Mitchell is portrayed as being the more mature and wiser of the two, and Kirk is more often taking Mitchell's advice than the reverse.

And Lee Kelso is a closet Egyptologist.

quote:

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Hope I haven't seemed overly confrontational in this post.

---

Not at all. I just disagree with you.

Re Voyager, my reasoning goes something like this:

• P1: Factoid from Voyager contradicts something I like.
• P2: Voyager sucked.
• C : Voyager factoid can be ignored.

It may not be deductively valid, but it works for me.

And as for novels vs. TV as source material, I assume you don't favour the latter because you believe TV is an inherently superior medium, but rather aired episodes have some official stamp of approval that novels do not. I can't agree with this, because it's based on the assumption that TPTB know better than I do what is or is not a good addition to the Star Trek universe, and this is patently untrue.



Kidding aside, I do believe in evaluating contraditing ideas solely on merit, regardless of source. But that's my thing. By sharing my opinions I'm not trying to force them on anyone else, but rather offering them for others to use if they like, just as I swipe other peoples' ideas when I like them. Like the ideas, I mean, not the people. Not that I necessarily don't like the people. But this is getting silly. I'll shut up now.


Originally posted by Timo:

quote:

---

As regards the ST2 Starfleet personnel, I think we should note that even though this was a training cruise, not everybody aboard would be a rookie! When Kirk asks Scotty whether his "cadets" could handle a little training cruise, he omits the fact that perhaps 80% of the crew is actually "veteran" already.

---

When I say, "I'll shut up now," of course what I mean is, "I'll start talking about something else."

On what do you base the idea that the Enterprise had a full regular crew on board? My impression was always that she had had been assigned to the Academy as a training ship, and had only a skeleton crew of regulars on board to train the cadets. Remeber McCoy's line about putting an experienced crew back on the Enterprise? Most of the crew in the background are wearing training uniforms.

(A nice detail in the "Khan shoots up the engine room" scene is that all the people grabbing oxygen masks are experienced crewmen.)

quote:

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And Peter Preston need not be a trainee at all. [SNIP]

---

Way to think outside the box.

But I can't agree. #1, he's wearing a trainee uniform. Note the red collar. And #2, "engineer's mate" is usually an enlisted man's job (as Manticore pointed out).

Besides, being the green as hell newb is the whole point of his role in the film. Along with Saavik, he puts a face on Spock's "trainee crew," who would otherwise be nameless extras in the background, ignored by the audience except as window dressing for the familiar main characters.

IHMO, the "midshipman" reference is the screw up. He's an enlisted trainee on his first cruise.


Marian
 

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Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
 
Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

---

quote:

---

but at least TOS didn't utilize the Lt(j.g.) rank, or did they?

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Yes, it did. Lt. JG Joe Tormolen for example.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dat:
3rd Lieutenant doesn't really fit in with Trek officer/enlistee rankings.

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quote:

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Why does "Lieutenant" always look wrong when spelled out fully?

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Your boring trivia minutae for the day:

A lieutenant was originally an assistant to a senior officer, back in the days when commanders were too aristocratic to be bothered with things like training, provisioning, or barracks discipline. Between battles, while they were off intriguing at court, they left behind a tenant who would oversee matters in lieu of them.

Hence the term.



Marian
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:

"Why does 'Lieutenant' always look wrong when spelled out fully?"

Because, inexplicably, the British think it has an 'f' in it?

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quote:

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So does the Dutch navy not have a commander rank at all? Does it go First Lt -> Capt-Lt -> Capt?

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Originally posted by Spike:
I always thought the British use "L'tenant" for Army officers and "Leftenant" for Navy officers.

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one thing i noticed when writing an article on rank in Star Trek:

we know that the rank of Lt. JG exists in Trek, we've seen the insignia on almost all the uniform design schemes, i've seen in mentioned in novels & publications, but is there any canonical mention of the term 'junior grade' ? in either dialogue or in a background readout somewhere??

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Um, what else would it stand for? Juniper grove? Jaded geek?



Marian
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"'Loo-tenant' is closer to the American pronounciation."

Ah, that's why you added an 'f' sound. Otherwise, you'd think it sounded like someone who lives in a toilet.
 

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Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
Worf definatly called Picard a 'Loo-tenant', Junior Grade in "Tapestry".
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by MarianLH:
Originally posted by MirrorCaptainMike:

quote:

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one thing i noticed when writing an article on rank in Star Trek:

we know that the rank of Lt. JG exists in Trek, we've seen the insignia on almost all the uniform design schemes, i've seen in mentioned in novels & publications, but is there any canonical mention of the term 'junior grade' ? in either dialogue or in a background readout somewhere??

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Um, what else would it stand for? Juniper grove? Jaded geek?



Marian

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Erm, he meant all of the signs pointed to the existance of the rank...as in the pips and so forth...but was the term ever explicitly stated "Lieutenant Junior Grade" or even "J.G." in any episode...not what J.G. stood for...


....which the Reverend of Soul just pointed out was said.
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
When I was really little, I thought it was Janitor Grade
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
So you just figured it out last year, didja? Good for you!
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PsyLiam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
I always thought the British use "L'tenant" for Army officers and "Leftenant" for Navy officers.

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Where on earth would you get a silly idea like that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:

"Why does 'Lieutenant' always look wrong when spelled out fully?"

Because, inexplicably, the British think it has an 'f' in it?

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I always thought the British use "L'tenant" for Army officers and "Leftenant" for Navy officers.

quote:

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So does the Dutch navy not have a commander rank at all? Does it go First Lt -> Capt-Lt -> Capt?

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Yep.

http://www.rankinsignia.info/show.php?podkategorie=Vloot%20-%20Royal%20Netherlands%20Navy&stat=Netherlands&id=78

German Navy ranks are also odd compared to RN or USN ranks. They have Captain Lieutenant > Corvette Captain > Frigate Captain > Captain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by MirrorCaptainMike:

-> a rarely mentioned tidbit is that Peter Preston was supposed to be a 15 or 16 year old cadet in original drafts of TWOK, reinforcing the horatio hornblower influences on that flm...

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According to the script, he was supposed to be 14, not to nitpick.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
A 14 year old serving is idiotic.
Even 16 is really pushing it.
 

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Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
 
Well, when they teach Calculus at... what 10?
 

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Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
 
I think that was drawing on the whole "Hornblower" thing with Middie's starting at 10 or so....

But it is silly.
 

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Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
 
Marby there is some "Military School" arc to that or part of some Tech. Ed. classes or other program. It was a training cruise, afterall.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Well, it isn't silly so much as it is historical and, if you prefer, anachronistic. (But then, anachronistic to today, or to the fictional future?)
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Stop being smart.

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Originally posted by Spike:
Sorry, got mixed up. The pronunciation "Leftant" is used for Army officers and "L'tenant" for Navy officers.

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Are you sure? I've never heard it.

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LOOTERNANT in the U.S. Navy.

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