The following two screen caps from DS9 show a Miranda w/ four impulse engines. Two in the standard location, and the other two at the rear of the (until this) weapons pod atop the roll-bar. I assume this was an error by the VFX people. Thoughts?
Also, I'm curious if anyone has attempted to recreate the Miranda MSD shown here:
I believe that's from the Brattain from TNG, if memory serves.
Posted by Capped in Mike (Member # 709) on :
it doesnt really mean that its an impulse engine.. it just means its glowing red.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Oh... I want a clearer version of the TNG Miranda Class MSD also.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
We've got a better, but far from perfect one coming in on the TABASCO project. When I'm back in town, I'll post it.
As for the "extra" engines, we've debated that here before. Some think they could be engines; others think that they're prepping to fire a special torpedo (see the Klingon cruisers at the beginning of TMP for just that). Either way, it's accepted as a VFX glitch that we've rationalized one way or the other.
Mark
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Well, maybe those plasma conduits in the torp launchers overloaded or damaged and we're seeing internal fires occuring. That or someone onboard wanted something nice and bright the Jem H'addar fighters to fire on instead of crew quarters.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Would it be possible to get quality DVD caps of it to shed some light on this? Or is it really tiny and this is the best possibe?
Posted by Futurama IV 8.24.04 (Member # 968) on :
What episode is this from? Angels?
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Yes, it's from FTB/SOA. Also, the same CGI model was used in TOTP and the 2 addtl. impulse engines remain.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Captain Boh: Pedro's Shiporama has some good caps of this ship and the episodes mentioned above. Look under "DS9 Finale" & "Big Fleet."
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Oh, and I just also noticed that the shuttlebays are no longer luminated on the exterior. It's funny how it has taken me 5+ years to recognize this change!
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I can't find any clear shots there... acctually all I can find is what was already posted here
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Datas looking pretty gay there.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
Maybe they refitted the Miranda to be more versatile and faster. They don't have an unlimited amount of Defiants to hunt down the Jem'Hadar-bugs, and an unmodified Miranda versus a bug in a 1 on 1fight is probably nothing more than a target practice.
Posted by Futurama IV 8.24.04 (Member # 968) on :
Maybe Data is a robosexual, did you ever stop to think that?
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Well, since his semen isn't real, he can't reproduce, anyway. And, if Soong was gay, that would make Data gay, too, perhaps?
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Well, anyway, getting back on-topic, I look forward to seeing this MSD, though I'd prefer it be cutaway-style like the Galaxy, Intrepid, Sovereign, Defiant, etc. I'm sure if budgeting allowed it, more time/effort would have been put into ships like the Brattain, Biko, Excalibur, Sutherland...
Amasov: Miranda's would've rec'd upgrades, no doubt, as they are one of the fleet's workhorses. Though I still think that the extra engines are VFX errors. And if they did indeed replace the SOLE two aft-photorp launchers, they would be lowering her tactical ability in combat. Not to mention, I'm in doubt that the pod has the space inside for an impulse drive. I know someone will mention the Nebula-class mini-drives now, though. Which is also a VFX problem me thinks. IMO, it's a VFX error, period. ;-)
One last thing...was the Saratoga-A's bridge a redress of an Excelsior-class bridge, and if it were, did it too have an MSD aft of the capt's chair?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Maybe they're just the brake lights...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Research seems to indicate that the DS9 Saratoga bridge is in fact NOT the use of parts of the ST5-6 bridge sets, but a mostly new set that premiered with that episode. It did not have an MSD behind it, and nor did the bridge sets for the Norkova, DS9 Prometheus, or Odyssey that followed it.
Also, it looks like the set was eventually reworked and expanded into the bridge of the Excelsior for VOY "Flashback", and used thereafter as the bridge for the other Prometheus, Equinox, Righteous, etc.
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I find this thread, starting with a ship with too many tailpipes and touching on homosexual androids, quite disconcerting.
Also disconcerting would be the placement of impulse engines at that location. Beyond the whole issue of ships having impulse engines that are in weird places unrelated to any sort of center of mass or anything else, there's the simple fact that I would not want my impulse engines placed on such a spindly structure as the Miranda rollbar.
(To be sure, spindly structures on Trek ships are not necessarily as weak as they would appear (TOS Constitution leaps to mind), but I still see no purpose in tempting fate (or taxing the SIF) this way.)
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Perhaps the rollbar weapons pod is designed to seperate and fly around the target ship, like a big misquito, but with photon torpedoes.
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Ok, that was interesting... so is this here. Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris W.: Amasov: Miranda's would've rec'd upgrades, no doubt, as they are one of the fleet's workhorses. Though I still think that the extra engines are VFX errors. And if they did indeed replace the SOLE two aft-photorp launchers, they would be lowering her tactical ability in combat. Not to mention, I'm in doubt that the pod has the space inside for an impulse drive. I know someone will mention the Nebula-class mini-drives now, though. Which is also a VFX problem me thinks. IMO, it's a VFX error, period. ;-)
The aft end of the pod looks like the front end. So, either the guy who lightmapped the ship was blind or stupid or both there's no way you could confuse them with impulse engines. The other option is: whoever built the model a) didn't put any detail on the pod (which is hard to believe concidering the fact that the Starship Spotter ship was pretty detailed) or b) did indeed place a pair of impulse engines there, for whatever reason. Besides that, here's the first lesson you have to lean on this board: "There are no VFX errors, just lazy forum members."
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: Also disconcerting would be the placement of impulse engines at that location. Beyond the whole issue of ships having impulse engines that are in weird places unrelated to any sort of center of mass or anything else, there's the simple fact that I would not want my impulse engines placed on such a spindly structure as the Miranda rollbar.
They still have the second pair of engines, anyway. Furthermore, I'd rather have another impulse engine in that pod than a torpedo launcher with a stock of antimatter warheads. OTOH, with the engines in that pod, I doubt there's enough space left for a launcher or a single batch of torpedos. But hey, they obviously still have some unused space for torpedo launchers where the shuttlebays used to be. (Concidering the fact that they also produced the infamous Barebone-Galaxys, there's no way Starfleet has the ressources to equip every one of the thousands ouf Mirandas in the fleet with Shuttles).
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
But shuttles are easier to build than starships. I'm sure there's a large enough Industrial Replicator that creates shuttles now.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: But shuttles are easier to build than starships. I'm sure there's a large enough Industrial Replicator that creates shuttles now.
Scary thought. You definitely watch too much Voyager.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Maybe they just give the Mirandas the old shuttles that they replace every few years Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Since we never really saw the Mirandas firing torpedoes in the Dominion nastiness, it could well be that the whole pod *is* dedicated to impulse boost now... As long as we believe that the pod is "modular", i.e. swappable, it's also the most practical place for a major new piece of hardware, nicht wahr?
I'm all happy happy joy joy with the idea that Starfleet had to make drastic changes to these geriatric ships to squeeze tactical value out of them. Sealed-off shuttlebays, removed torpedo pods and extra impulse boost sound like the measures a navy of today might do to increase the lifespan of a 1960s-vintage ship (replace relevant treknobabble with things like "helicopter hangar" etc., of course).
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not true - in "Sacrifice of Angels" both Sitak and Majestic were seen firing torpedoes forward shortly before they were blown up. While it's unknown if they were "lit" from behind, they certainly were firing away.
Mark
Posted by Futurama IV 8.24.04 (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, I cant get the "Angels" DVD-disc to play for caps of the Sitak and Majestic.
However, to make this thread relevent here is some better evidence from "Tears" of two different Mirandas:
DVD scans...such an amazing way to post pictures... Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
From what I can tell, the picture on the right is BEFORE the one on the left.
At first glance, it appears that we have discovered another Miranda variant. Perhaps the ship on the right is the "Brattain" variant (ie. a ship dedicated to science/exploration, so it wouldn't need the weapons pod). This is total conjecture.
The ship in the left photo appears to have the standard 2 impulse engines and illuminated shuttlebays.
Also, I refuse to believe that each ship of a class starship is completly identical. In the Navy, though the Stennis and Ronald Reagan are both Nimitz-class carriers, the Reagan is far more advanced. Think E-D vs. USS Venture, etc.
What do you guys think? 4th Miranda variant discovered?
Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
So there are two CGI versions of the Miranda Class... which could either mean that more than one artist can create a starship or that someone decided to make a contest at Foundation Imaging on which Miranda Class CGI is the most authentic looking one against the physical model.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Which would make the quad-impulse Miranda a new variant.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Somewhat off-topic, but the shots from "Tears of the Prophets" made me want to see it again. To my surprise, I happened to notice that at time index 34:12, the Defiant's registry is shown on the nose as NCC-74210. Whoops!
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
God, Pedro's Shiporama is still up - and it still hasn't been updated. That's about five years now. I'm surpised the guy even bothers to renew the domain, let alone continue hosting it. But then he was a twat anyway, one of Tachy's lapdogs. . .
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I find it ironic that anyone with a Star Trek website could be a labdog of Tachy. Oh how the times change.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
For the record, I'm not in any way personally nor professionally affiliated w/ Pedro. His site is a good resource, though.
I still think it's a new variant. Or, perhaps it's not so new, and I've been gone so long that I missed its discovery...
Oh well, just seeking my piece of the pie... ;-)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Of course, I've no idea what became of that lot. Never cared enough to find out, either. I'm assuming Boh has some knowledge of their fates, then?
And, the Shiporama was a nice site, I even used to check in regularly in the vain hope of an update.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Lets just say Tachy became rather anti-trek
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Really? Gosh. This I have to see. Does he still have a website? 8)
(Boh - PM me if you like. Didn't mean to hijack this thread, just feeling rather hostile and obnoxious today!)
So, um, yeah. Mirandas with extra impulse engines. I realise the question is pretty much meaningless given those SI fields, but wouldn't impulse engines sticking out on that pylon/rail put a lot of stress on it?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Yeah, and isn't combat where they seem to loose the SIF alot? I don't get the pod anyway, I mean, it must be a bitch for the torpedo crews to get to it.
(Oh and Tachy.. well scifi-art is still there, but he doesn't do much anymore and he's kinda mellowed out, but he does have a job and a family..)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If the rollbar's there to provide extra strengthening for the pylons which hold the nacelles, then it's obviously pretty strong; problem is, you have all the non-rollbar variants.
Plus the central assembly on the rollbar is pretty large to just hold a couple of torpedo launchers, unless they contain automatic feed magazines so they don't need crews. How large is the rollbar itself anyway? Could it contain a crawlway, a walkway or even a turbolift tube?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, considdering the rolebar is introduced in Star Trek II where feature torpedo crews, I'd say it'd be kinda odd if the Reliant had automated torpedo systems but the Enterprise didn't.
And don't bring the training voyage in to play, I doubt they'd go on "training" in a crisis. Posted by Futurama IV Shizzle (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris W.: From what I can tell, the picture on the right is BEFORE the one on the left.
At first glance, it appears that we have discovered another Miranda variant. Perhaps the ship on the right is the "Brattain" variant (ie. a ship dedicated to science/exploration, so it wouldn't need the weapons pod). This is total conjecture.
The ship in the left photo appears to have the standard 2 impulse engines and illuminated shuttlebays.
What do you guys think? 4th Miranda variant discovered?
The order of the pictures are rather irrelevant.
I'm not sure I see two variants there, but rather righty got lefties glow by accident...which makes perfect sense if you know nothing about how cgi glows are placed. Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Careful we're straying awful close to debating the actual age of the Miranda-class here. We know that automated torpedo launchers were introduced at some point, and we know that the Enterprise wasn't a front-line ship anymore. Ideal for training in fact - how better to learn everything about photon torpedo systems than on a manual system? In other words, the 1701-null might not have had automatic launchers!
Then again, would they have a front-line ship doing tedious surveys for the Genesis Project (even given its secrecy and possible military applications) either?
Posted by MarianLH (Member # 1102) on :
Originally posted by Lee:
quote:Then again, would they have a front-line ship doing tedious surveys for the Genesis Project (even given its secrecy and possible military applications) either?
FWIW, the shooting script described Reliant as "older" and "somewhat battered." But then, it also described her as "of the ENTERPRISE class, with a slightly different configuration,� so who knows.
Marian
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, but that was back when the nacelles and rollbar were in opposite positions.
Enterpriise has automatic loaders for torpedos: else, how did they fire in STIII with the entire crew on the bridge?
Seems neglegent to leave them armed and loaded in STIII otherwise.
I think the Reliant's crew had to have been either beamed into the pod (the pod's larger than the entire rear third of the Enterprie after all- total automation would'nt account for all that space) or they are assigned there for a few days at a stretch untill relieved via shuttle or something: The rollbar might be thick enough to accomidate a crawlspace but it'd be really tricky to get around the bend where the phasers are mounted.
Fuck if I know.
Posted by Pensive's Left testes for mayor... (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Originally posted by Lee:
quote:Then again, would they have a front-line ship doing tedious surveys for the Genesis Project (even given its secrecy and possible military applications) either?
FWIW, the shooting script described Reliant as "older" and "somewhat battered." But then, it also described her as "of the ENTERPRISE class, with a slightly different configuration,� so who knows.
Marian
Don't know about the "Older, more battered" part but, at first, Reliant was supposed to be a Conny class...but to avoid confusing the movie audience, they instead made the Miranda Class....which, BTW was supposed be nassels up but when Gene saw and gave his thumbs up on it, it was presented to him UPSIDE DOWN, or so the story goes...think i read it in one of the mags recently...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I doubt it was referred to as Miranda Class at that point, though.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
And it wasn't Gene, it was Harve Bennet. Roddenberry had already been "kicked upstairs" to his non-position of executive consultant at that point.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I thought I recalled a scene of a guy in an Enterprise-esque torpedo room when Chekov torpedoes the Reliant's launcher, but instead the interior scene is that of a curved corridor in the special edition.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
It was always of a guy in a curved corridor and it wasn't directly related to the pod being hit... by phasers and not torpedoes
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
It was a torpedo, and the curved corridor blast does take place immediately thereafter.
As for the corridor itself, I wasn't suggesting that it was in the pod, though I suppose there could be one for no apparent reason. I was simply making the statement to inquire about the misremembered scene. Thanks.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
So, is it a new variant or not?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No. It's probably a malfunction or just the pod running "hot" during combat.
Mabye it's the 23rd century version of ground effects.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
I disagree. Why ignore the visual evidence on-screen? Pick and choose the rules, eh?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
hu�mor (hyoo-mer) n.
1. The quality that makes something laughable or amusing; funniness: could not see the humor of the situation. 2. That which is intended to induce laughter or amusement: a writer skilled at crafting humor. 3. The ability to perceive, enjoy, or express what is amusing, comical, incongruous, or absurd. See Synonyms at wit.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Oh, right. Of course. D'oh.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Whoa . . . the Mirandas from Sacrifice of Angels have glowy lower domes, a la the NX and TOS Connie. This is most easily noticed in the shots just prior to the destruction of the Sitak and the Majestic, when the nacelles are casting a shadow on the ventral saucer. However, upon noticing the glow, I also found it in the shots of the Federation fleet headed toward the Dominion fleet (where our perspective puts us behind the onrushing Federation ships). It's also visible just before Garak's "they're angry!" bit.
It's not bright, and looks kinda blue-green, but it is a bit off from the norm. These are not the four-engine Mirandas . . . might be worth a look to see if they have it, if one's trying to distinguish sub-classes.
Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Maybe they just didn't turn it on?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Are you sure it's not just the normal illumination that emanate from the sensor-cluser/running lights centered around the lower dome on both the Miranda and refit-Constitution?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I've reviewed a screenshot and they are dimly lit as are the impluse deflection crystals on the bottom of the saucers (and those were never lit as well). I would still not call them a part of an upgrade though. I would think they could be lit at any time since lit or not, they still perform the same function. Now, the impulse engines in the pod I would call an upgrade or subclass.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
On the Reliant the impulse dome on the bottom had a formation light on it, if thats of any consequence to them being lit now.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well those formation lights blinked and didn't cover the entire implulse deflection crystal, whereas now it's the entire crystal that's lit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd think it's arefit and not a variant: for whatever reason, the Miranda's rear launchers now glow.
Consider the extreme folly at replacing the launchers with impulse engines: the rear launchers are a Miranda's only aft firing weapons. (the "rollbar" does not seen to have aft emitters and the DS9 Mirandas never used the rollbar phasers at all)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
They may have never fired off the aft phaser cannons, but they certainly are there.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But are the functional in DS9's era? We've seen a lot of other weird shit from those old ships: like K'Tingas with big disruprors firing from hat was the forward torp tube.
Eliminating the rear torpedo launchers still cuts down the rear coverage by 50% so it's kinda a dumb move when going into battle to reduce your ability to fire...
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
OTOH, it's fairly common in the real world. Many a ship has ended up with fewer gun mounts than she originally had. Ships built around big and expensive weapon systems may have the systems removed when they become obsolete, leaving a gutted hulk that nevertheless is tactically worth the while.
Given how few torpedoes we saw in the Dominion war, and how generally inefficient they appeared to be (except against the Klingons), I could easily see a Miranda captain begging "please remove my torp launcher and give me better impulse maneuverability instead"...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not that those supposed extra impulse engines helped the Sitak or Majestic any. Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
That, or the ship never had aft torp. launchers at all. Perhaps she was just a transport/science ship, pulled into combat service?
Also, the term "impulse maneuverability" doesn't make much sense to me, as manueverability comes from thrusters and what-not. Impulse/warp drives are for speed only, yes? Impulse exhaust vents are stationary.
Should I accept the on-screen evidence, then this is a different Miranda variant. If I dismiss this as a VFX f**k-up, we're exactly where we were before the discussion ever arose. I'm leaning towards the later.
Keeping in mind that there is no *correct* answer here, just opinion...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Well, it depends on what kind of VFX problem it is. As far as I know, there needs to be something there to apply a glow too to make a glow, so if the torpedo launchers were there, we'd likely still see them through the glow (since the screen shots Ive seen don't make it look like its very powerful a glow)
But then, I don't know how Lightwave handles those things.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
The extra impulse engines could provide extra forward thrust aiding both the regular impulse engines and aft thrusters. As for evasive maneuvers, those extra engines probably contain driver coils that can help reduce the ship's mass even further so that the thrusters don't need to fire as much to move the ship in other directions.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Or they were just testing out upgraded torpedos on the century-old systems of the Miranda class and it produced a glow.... From a strictly design POV, I'd have added new Impulse Engines where the old shuttlebays are and an aft phaser bank or rear launcher where the old impulse engines were.
Posted by Futurama IV Shizzle (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chris W.: Should I accept the on-screen evidence, then this is a different Miranda variant. If I dismiss this as a VFX f**k-up, we're exactly where we were before the discussion ever arose. I'm leaning towards the later.
2) Why the hell are you so insistant on this being some variant?? Let it be what you want it to be, you don't need our approval for it to be a variant in your mind... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yes he does.
Posted by Futurama IV Shizzle (Member # 968) on :
As long as he keeps it to himself.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Hmm... what about an odd reflection setting thats makeing us see the light from the impulse engines reflected up there? I'm attempting to evaluate this from a CG point of view here. Posted by Chris W. (Member # 1347) on :
Oh, whatever. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ha! We've crushed his spirit!
Quickly now...we have to reprogram him before Omega forces his radically liberal views on his tabla rasa mind....!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Tabula.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah! Tabula! Just hold him down while I get the Lobotomiozer hooked up...
Posted by Futurama IV Shizzle (Member # 968) on :
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