Placeholder for the season premiere. My Canadian network has seen fit to move ENT to Fridays as well, so I once more have to suffer watching Trek as the same time as you Yanks.
Still, it's good to be back. Things to look for:
-Any hints on how messed up Enterprise is (or isn't) following all the fun in the Expanse. They're certainly going to fix everything up in "Home", but we can look for subtle changes that they'll have made over hiatus that we're not expected to see until they install the Nemesis chair. Keep an eye out for additional displays (which appeared, for example, between "The Expanse" and "The Xindi", well AFTER they left spacedock again), paint changes behind the damage, etc.
-They had an unknown length of time between the destruction of the weapon, return to the Expanse, and ferrying everyone home - could this missing time explain any of the inconsistencies we're bound to find?
-Any sort of closure on the Xindi arc. It was finished so hastily, to say nothing of not REALLY making peace. They were just dropped off at Earth by an Aquatic ship, and suddenly they were in alternate Earth's past. What of 2150s Earth? Could any of these temporal shenanigans account for the lack of an Earther response to the Spere showing up?
-History buffs are going to have fun with this one - I for one would like to hear the explanation for a foreign invasion of the US without some sort of staging ground on this continent, using 1940s tech. What'd they do, invade Canada first? I don't know about sending an invasion force on a two or three days trip overseas and THEN invading AS YOU GET THERE. Logistically sound a plan it ain't.
-But on that note, we can look for how the alien influence allowed THAT to happen in the first place.
-And of course, how all this fits into the Temporal Cold War. We should thankfully be getting rid of most of this arc with the opener, but who knows if it'll be resolved to any sort of real closure before we move on.
More?
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I really don't think I can be bothered to count MACOs anymore.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Oh, *them*...
Spiffy as they are, I wonder if the MACOs are gonna stay on Enterprise following the two-parter. They're allegedly supposed to get back to exploration after all this, but the plots of the first arcs seem to indicate that they're going to be doing some good ol' TOS-style troubleshooting. If they're still around without explanation, I suppose it's not too much of a stretch to say that they're going to be permenantly added.
Still, going back home allows people to be rotated off and back again, thus explaining their dissappearance. In the past season, the refit at Earth and the losses sustained in "Azati Prime" served as a convenient off-point to quietly lose some characters (the death of Cutler's actress, for example, or Corporal Chang's actor getting "Lost" on some other show). If they're sticking relatively close to home this time, then keeping track of crew won't be as important a geeky endeavour as it has been on ENT to this point, and of course on Voyager.
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm assuming - hell, I'm HOPING - that we'll see the back of them. As I've said before, I only started counting out of curiosity, and it seen became a totally ridiculous enterprise (no pun intended). I'm amazed I stuck with it as long as I did. But, yeah, there's no need for them to be there anymore.
That said, I'll miss seeing some security people who actually looked like they knew what they were doing, as opposed to the usual "Reed turns up with two crewmen carrying those silly little rifles, and are completely ineffective" scenarios.
Any clues yet as to when the HDTV version will get broadcast, so I can schedule my Torrenting accordingly?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It would be nice if they kept their equipment around, at least.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Didn't I hear somewhere that the Xindi arc woudl be cleaned up, a couple of episodes in to S4?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Not a bad opener, with a lot of action carrying the story and exposition. Not much new tech, though the TCW is obviously the major thing here. On-the-fly notes follow:
-I was hoping that they would say something about the effectiveness of 20th century bullets against the shuttle hulls of the 22nd. AA fire poses an obvious threat
-Not too surprisingly, the ship has been mostly cleaned up inside since the last episode. Sure, there're a few battle scars here and there, but everything is otherwise squeaky clean. The corridors are conspicuously untouched compared to before. The exterior CG model is presumably the same as it was last time, so it's an easy matter
-Interestingly, the Nazi aliens speak with the usual American accents, and no one seems to notice.
-Enterprise has been sunk. The carrier, anyway.
-The aliens are deploying plasma weaponry to the Nazis... They use a film demonstration to a German general, showing them blowing up a building and a tank. The building exploding seems to be the one in VOY "The Killing Game"
-Apparently there are no gangsters that don't have names like Vic or Sal. Also, while I'm no weapons expert, I'm sure people had OTHER pistols besides the Colt 1911.
-Daniels reveals that the TCW is a flat-out TW now - temporal agents are attacking on multiple fronts, changing history on a massive scale (I'm hoping this means on other planets too). Daniels brought Enterprise back here to stop the aliens from returning to their time, probably thus causing a paradox that would erase their influence from the timeline.
-For the first time in a while, we get a close up look at the phase cannons as they're used to disable the shuttle that Silik commandeers. Nothing different about them, but it's just nice ot see them again (I'm sure they don't bother rendering them deployed when the ship's in long shots). In any case, the centerline photon(ic) launcher isn't present on the wrecked-up CG ship model either.
-Hey, isn't that the same sunken store entrance that Bashir and Sisko once spent the night in?
-The aliens are trapped here in this time, and they've been building a time machine with local technology so they can get back. Because of the tech, the machine is REALLY BIG - which is how Enterprise will find it.
-Archer says he's from upstate New York. Has he said where he's from before?
-I know it makes perfect sense, but for some reason I was chuckling for a while when I saw the Nazis using German Shepards.
-Hey, bullets pass right through the trnsporer beam. Good thing the aliens weren't using energy weapons, or else they'd probably end up like Major Hayes.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I think the determining factor is when the weapon passes through the beam, not what type it is. The beam that got Hayes got him before he had completely dematerialized. The baddies (in typical baddie style) fired too late in this instance.
By the way, is that the same transporter effect they've always had? I never realized how reminiscent of the TOS effect it is.
[ October 08, 2004, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I liked it. Few things were odd (I would think that the Nazis would have more likely invaded England... but thats just me.) Wonder if those pilots noticed Enterprise written on the shuttle
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
They probably did invade England, and Winston evacuated to Canada.
Germany would certainly need more help to accomplish the things it did then what the aliens seemed to be doing, but maybe we'll learn more in the next episode...
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
So far there's no clear indication of what happened to England. There was the Churchill transmission, which is addressed to the youth of Britain, but its meaning is inconclusive.
Other matters:
1. The AAA gunners of San Francisco were kicking major ass that day. Well, okay, they didn't actually shoot anything down, but one of their first shots was almost a direct hit on the shuttlepod, no more than a couple of meters off the starboard fuselage. A Japanese Zero, at 9m long and 11m wide, would've been half-again longer and way wider. Going by German flak cannons (though, granted, they had more opportunity to perfect theirs), the aircraft kill zone would've been on the order of 10-20m, with significant damage possible at 30m. Even the small Flakvierling was a relatively tough cookie for lower-flying targets.
Given that proximity fusing was possible at the time, I can only assume that was the method employed. Normal altitude-fusing seems like it couldn't have produced the close strikes we saw.
2. The shuttlepod took the flak without much incident. Mayweather mentions the starboard injector which was presumably damaged in some way, but the starboard engine was still operational. The only confusing thing is that Tucker mentions pulling 3 .50-cal bullets out of the hull of the shuttlepod. But, given how many hits were made on the shuttle, one thus wonders what vulnerable, not-quite-bulletproof part of the hull was hit thrice.
Tucker also later mentions that an EPS assembly got fried. However, no bulletholes or other indications of damage were evident in the hull of the shuttle.
3. Mayweather saw P-51's at an airshow. Assuming they were in flight, that would mean that after 200 years the birds could still take wing. That's a pretty sweet idea.
4. "Another item on our list of things to ponder." Best line ever.
5. The explosion of the shuttlepod was awfully tiny. Given their performance on other occasions . . . flying into a gas giant, surviving a phase cannonade, surviving an atmosphere's detonation, and so on . . . I'd have expected something in the hundreds-of-tons range, at least. What we saw was more like a small gasoline bomb. The flaming explosion, despite looking a little like a firestorm for a second, was just tiny. But, given that the pod had been (very accurately) tagged by starship weapons and then survived re-entry and a crash, I suppose we could grant that it was not in the best shape.
6. We once again get the "Hollywood flesh wound". Archer was shot through the arm by a bullet that missed the bone (implying it came reasonably close), but besides a brief knockdown, a manly wince, and a small bandage, he was fine for the rest of the episode.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Mayweather saw P-51's at an airshow. Assuming they were in flight, that would mean that after 200 years the birds could still take wing. That's a pretty sweet idea.
Or they were replicas, which is slightly more likely.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
As for the history part, here's what I could make up. I still don't completely understand all of Daniels' mumblings..
- The Na'kuhl (did Daniels really say that? It sounded different) are 'the most dangerous' faction in the Temporal not-so-Cold War.
- The Na'kuhl somehow got trapped on 20th century Earth, and can only escape by building a new 'conduit'. I assume they chose to help the most productive Earth economy they could find, to help them build the device.
- Germany seems to control the majority of Africa, and at least Moscow, but perhaps more of the Soviet Union.
- The US apparently did not put up much of a fight when the Germans made landfall. DC was evacuated, and the armed forces made an 'orderly retreat'. The Germans currently believe that the Americans are planning a counterattack. The US Navy is involved in operations on the Pacific Ocean.
- The speech we heard Churchill give was made in 1943 at Harvard (text|.ram). Strangely, we later learn that the story takes place in 1944. I guess this is another minor timeline change. Perhaps Churchill and the Government are now in exile in the US.
- Somehow, the Americans have never seen the Na'kuhl, while they don't actually try to hide themselves. German soldiers march around the compound filled with future technology without any problems.
- It appears that the massive time-travel device is actually being built on the American continent. How did they built such a huge device in (at most) two years?
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
P-51's, given the amount of interest they generate, could basically fly for however long that interest is maintained. Very few parts would most likely be original - but they can be remanufactured forever I suppose.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wouldn't the Alien presence been possibly picked up by Spock in "City on the Edge of Forever"?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Erm, why? There's no reason to assume that the Keeler-lives timeline and the Storm Front timeline are one and the same.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Wasn't Edit Keeler the key figure in that timeline? Kirk himself was responsible for the change. To cause that timeline, the aliens woudl have to have prevented kirk from.. um... Hmm.. intersting hypothesis. if Germany Conquers America, the Federation, the enterprise, and Kirk would have been totally different and he probobly wouldn't have saved Ms. Keeler.. making something like a NAZI victory more likely..
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The speech we heard Churchill give was made in 1943 at Harvard (text|.ram). Strangely, we later learn that the story takes place in 1944. I guess this is another minor timeline change. Perhaps Churchill and the Government are now in exile in the US."
Or it was just a recording of the speech being rebroadcast as a morale booster or something.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, I watched it around noon today... that's why I refrained from reading this thread earlier this morning.
"Pazifisches Meer"? That should have been "Pazifischer Ozean"...
I suppose the SS officer's line about Hollywood was an intended pun, given the events that follow.
Oh, and where are the collaborators? They sure don't want us to believe that there wouldn't have been any, would they...?
So, the ASBs are giving the Germans superweapons built with the technology that is available at the time, and that was what lead to a German victory? Given that in OTL, the Germans did have "superweapons" built with the technology they had available... Africa and Moscow I can believe, since all it would have taken was a different strategy, basically, but the U.S.?
I'm still hoping that it's Daniels who dies and not Silik, I can't stand that guy...
Oh, and the preview for the next episode... Stukas?! Equipped with plasma guns or something? And they are of the B version (which they stopped building in the late spring of 1941), at most, instead of newer types like the D or G (the latter would have been more believable, given that in OTL it did carry two BK 3,7 antitank cannons under the wings, much like those ones from the promo did). But for intercepting the NX-01, I'd have chosen something else, like Ta 152s or Do 335s, instead of those sloooooooooooow Stukas...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I suppose it's possible that the aliens (where is it said that they're the Na'kuhl, anyway? I haven't re-watched it yet) have not been influencing the war with technology, but with words or possibly with foreknowledge. They may have appeared to the Nazis using their last photon torpedo to nuke Britain, or something, and gotten Hitler's confidence that way. The general guy was frustrated with the alien promises, though all he'd been apparently seen are films of the cool stuff they could have. Also, Daniels said that to get home, the aliens had to use local tech to build their "conduit"... So what the aliens have on hand may be limited.
Finally, seeing as how the conduit is being buit on American soil, it's possible that there's something in the USA that's needed to complete it. Certain metals or easily-reached resources thereof, in combination with stuff that is under Nazi control; if it was uniquely available in the US then the aliens may have supported the Allies instead.
I'm still working out how stopping Vosk here and preventing his return, where he subsequently wipes out Daniels' future, will restore the timeline in the past... This reminds me too much of an absolutely horrid episode of seaQuest DSV, where the sub is catapulted into a far future where everyone's dead and the sole remaining boy and girl have to be made to fall in love for them to return.
Yup.
They didn't bother explaining WHY that had to be done in that show, and I'm worried we'll be given a "oh, we don't need to understand it" sort of explanation to the paradox here.
Thsi may be fun to watch, but right now I'm loooking forward to finishing it up so we can get to the Berman-less Trek fun that Coto's promising us!
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Additional: I forgot to add, that there are no signs of MACOs anywhere in this episode as far as I could see, even in the background as extras.
Looks like they just might be history.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"I'm still hoping that it's Daniels who dies and not Silik, I can't stand that guy..."
Why are you still hoping? Didn't you watch the entire episode?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And another thing: Westmore did some amazing work on Daniels. Somehow, it reminded me of Pike's condition in "The Menagerie". With the eyes of Gary Mitchell.
I also noticed the German map of the US had 'California' on it. An unforgivable error if you have an audience known for it's nitpicking obsession 8)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: And another thing: Westmore did some amazing work on Daniels. Somehow, it reminded me of Pike's condition in "The Menagerie". With the eyes of Gary Mitchell.
I also noticed the German map of the US had 'California' on it. An unforgivable error if you have an audience known for it's nitpicking obsession 8)
Why? Should it have been spelt Kulif-or-niaa a la Arnold Schwartzenegger? Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
It (c/sh)ould have been Kalifornien.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
When Archer was riding in the truck and the Nazi was talking about Hollywood, I thought they were somewhere near there because of the look of the land around them. Obviously they were in real life for production purposes, but California looks nothing like New York (or Georgia, if you remember watching the Dukes of Hazzard).
In that last scene with the alien looking over his "conduit", I immediately thought of the Irwin Allen series "Time Tunnel".
So where's what's-her-name, the woman that helped Archer? Is she in sickbay freaking out at Dr. Phlox?
B.J.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"I'm still hoping that it's Daniels who dies and not Silik, I can't stand that guy..."
Why are you still hoping? Didn't you watch the entire episode?
Given that Trek has a history of allegedly dead people turning out not to be so in the end, it could very well be that the Big Reset Button by the end of the next episode also "fixes" Daniels, especially given that his condition was due to the whole damage to the timeline thing... Silik, OTOH, is in the exact same situation as Archer and his crew, and whatever happens to him where/when he is may very well be final.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Unfortunately I just saw a picture of some MACOs in one of the Spiner eps, and there's a mention on startrek.com of some of the usual MACO stunt-performers appearing. Kill me now. . .
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
Whats wrong with the MACO's? I thought they were an awesome addition to the show and welcome thier return.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
There was nothing wrong with the MACOs. I mean how many people on these boards have been moaning for years about not seeing some sort of Starfleet 'marine'?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Nothing was wrong with the MACOs. Except for the extremely silly acronym. But then again, there are weirder acronyms in the real military.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
To find out why Lee is the only person bemoaning the MACOs' return, look at his link. He spent an inordinate amount of time making that page make super-sense, and now that they're staying...
But I say: Lee, you may relieve yourself of that burden! Now that they're home, they'll be able to switch and be replaced regularly with replacements from Earth. Keeping track of them becomes less an important task now that they can swap around more easily.
Back, demon, BACK! Lee will be free of the MACO-tracking curse!
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
*phew* I kept telling myself that, but it sounds soo much better coming from someone else!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Given that Trek has a history of allegedly dead people turning out not to be so in the end"
Daniels, for instance.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
And just as I feared, he's back from the dead, while Silik is apparently dead (judging by previous mentions about other Sulibans dying and FG not being able to do anything to "restore" them)...
A wasted chance to show that, actually, Daniels wasn't what he seemed to be, especially after Vosk's comments that his (that is, Daniels') group also has its own agenda.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)