Placeholder as usual. I'm posting now because the preview, which I just watched, contains a MAJOR tech point we'll be having fun with:
In the preview, we see Enterprise... ENTERING THE ATMOSPHERE AND DOGFIGHTING OVER NEW YORK. Now, there's absolutely nothing that says that starships CAN'T do atmospheric operations like this - it's the LANDING that's been the problem for the most part. Plus of course, we've seen Voyager do it plenty, Defiant fly in the uber-pressure of a gas giant, and the TOS Enterprise has been in the atmosphere too (albeit under considerable stress). However, we've been led to believe for years that unless designed to do so, starships generally aren't meant for significant atmospheric maneuvering. I'm looking forward to figuring THIS one out.
Also, the preview shows the forward ventral phase cannons deploying not from the usual hatches just above the torpedo ports, but from the identical hatches closer to the deflector. This lends credence to my pet theory that while Enterprise only has so many phase cannons, they are able to travel around the ship on rails or something, and quickly deploy from the most convenient hatch for firing. This explains lots of the often confusing emission points we've seen over the years.
[On the flip side, another shot shows the phase cannons firing from apparently a window and the main deflector. You got me on those - same as when we saw Enterprise fire from the dorsal power transfer junction greeblies in "Shockwave Part II".]
Mark
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I'm pretty sure 200+ meter long spacecraft are not meant to go into low-altitude dogfights with WW2 fightercraft above New York.
Never mind the sheer aerodynamical impossibilities (remember, Earth has only very limited experimental forcefield tech). Anyone equipped with matter/antimatter warheads and energy weapons does not need to go into these sorts of fights.
Wouldn't it be a great idea if Star Trek decided to donate half it's VFX budget to charity and actually focus on a plot, instead of ludicrous scenes like these?
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
The scene looked fun and exciting, and your going into way too much depth. Scenes like this kick ass, and they - and star trek in general - wasn�t meant to be criticized as deeply as you are. No one cares about the aerodynamically challenged ship.
The plot is fine. Visual Effects like these bring in viewers and increase ratings, which generally leads to more profit.
You have to realize that this is science fiction and not some technically accurate reality. Technical impossibilities like this have existed in Star Trek since the very beginning. You are going to have to expect that the technology behind Enterprise's atmospheric flight isnt going to be explained on screen, like most of the technical and scientific wonders of this franchise.
As soon as we all realize this, the more we will enjoy Enterprise.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And if we all realized this, we wouldn't need a Tech forum to discuss it.
Mark <--- Trek is a SHOW?!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Advance reviews reveal that when Enterprise inevitably ends up back in 2154, the first indication that everything is okay is that she appears amidst a cluster of friendly ships, including doubtless the Intrepid and/or an Iceland or two. Point being, that this indeed hints that the lack of resistance from the Earthers at the end of last season is probably a result of time travelling interference.
So, what? Reed and company turn right around after destroying the Xindi weapon and not bother to even say hello to everyone there. I'm banking that while this will never be explained, Daniels may have needed everyone together for them to save the day, and so manipulated time and space (and memory?) such that everyone could get back together on Enterprise and return home.
Time travel. Tricky business. Unpredictable.
Mark
Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wes: The scene looked fun and exciting, and your going into way too much depth. Scenes like this kick ass, and they - and star trek in general - wasn�t meant to be criticized as deeply as you are. No one cares about the aerodynamically challenged ship.
The plot is fine. Visual Effects like these bring in viewers and increase ratings, which generally leads to more profit.
You have to realize that this is science fiction and not some technically accurate reality. Technical impossibilities like this have existed in Star Trek since the very beginning. You are going to have to expect that the technology behind Enterprise's atmospheric flight isnt going to be explained on screen, like most of the technical and scientific wonders of this franchise.
As soon as we all realize this, the more we will enjoy Enterprise.
Science-fiction - generally implies that there's at least some grounding in th real world, is it too much to expect that things are realistic enough to allow suspension of disbelief? Enterprise has shattered that suspension for a lot of viewers. It should not need to rely on pointless FX sequences to draw in more viewers, all that shows is that the show can't stand on it's plot alone - which it can't - and that it needs to draw in the mindless 14yr old demographic who think Ep I had a well thought out plot.
P.S. I was 14 once, a short time ago in a house far, far, down the road; and I recall TNG and DS9 relying on their storylines, character building and good writing; oh well at least I can watch Farsca... Oh sh**"! Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It wasn't just "several ships" it was a fleet made up of dozens! All the types we've seen before were represented, including some Vulcan designs, and at least one NEW Earth vessel, which looks like a skiff of some kind.
Are we going to get the customary HDTV screencaps for this???
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Thin, but okay. The whole episode had the rest button looming over it like Enterprise over New York. At the end, everything was basically back to how it SHOULD have ended at the end of the past season, with a GOOD use of the Voyager "Endgame" final shot for a change. Basically, if we'd skipped from the descruction of the sphere straight to the last shot of this episode, we wouldn't have missed anything. Ah well... On the fly notes:
-The opening newsreel was pretty chilling, as I'm sure it was meant to be.
-Vosk doesn't want to give the Nazis their weaponry, as he doesn't trust them. Gee, didn't see THAT happening.
-Apparently, the flashpoint of the timeline change occured when someone assassinated Lenin, thus allowing Hitler to gain more power after the Great War. I'm wondering how this worked - if the Soviet revolution didn't happen, wouldn't the Russians of the time helped them end WWI a whole lot faster?
-MACOs! They're still there. Lee, you're up - they're not home quite yet.
-Hm.. When beaming down, Archer and the two MACOs appeared simultaneously. But beaming UP, Trip and Mayweather diappeared one a little after the other.
-Vosk is from the 29th century! His raison d'etre is that everyone ELSE is interfering with time, so why shouldn't he... Vosk's gang has encountered the Suliban faction in the TCW; one has to wonder what's been going on in the TCW that we're not seeing, or why no other factions are trying to interfere here.
-When Silik impersonates Trip, he takes the man's clothing. But when they capture him, somehow he's got his usual outfit back. I guess it's still mimetic...
-When Vosk and Archer don't agree to join forces, the former fires a nifty rail-mounted plasma cannon at the ship. it's enough to seriously damage Enterprise, but not enough for her to move in "point blank" to destroy the facility once the shields are down, which we'll be discussing shortly.
-The gate our heroes smash through looks a little out of place. Have we seen it before?
-Given how little problem Archer has taking a phase pistol along with him, I wonder how tough it would have been to bring along a bulletproof vest. There'd be plenty of slugs flying around, and he knew it.
-Enterprise makes little fuss about flying around to smash Nazi warplanes and installations. The only real reason given is that the targetting array is down, so they have to get close - really close! - to make an accurate attack.
-Ionization from re-entry prevents communication in the 22nd century just like it does today, apparently.
-For ehat it's worth, the images of Enterprising dueling with Stukas are REALLY FRICKING COOL.
-The post-climax diatribe between Archer and Daniels is reminiscent of the holographic stuff he's shown before. There are plenty of images floating around in the background, going from stock WWII footage through the Clinton adminstration, 9/11, and the launch of Enterprise to Archer running out of the burning core of teh Xindi weapon. Archer demands that Daniels leave him alone, and he readily agrees - looks like it's over, at least on the 22nd century front.
-Okay, the "dozens of ships" seen in the final shot will take an HDTV screenshot and a lot of time to figure out. However, we do see a couple of Vulcan ships (the newer ones; doesn't ANYONE use the originals anymore?), two Icelands, the Intrepid (including a good ventral fiew AT LAST!), the science ship from "Regeneration", and many more from various races. There's one spiffy new ship, the one that flies over Enterprise as the fleet turns to escort her home. It sure looks Earthy...
Mark
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
All in all a fantastic tech episode, if I do say so myself.
We also get to see a Starfleet Academy diploma.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Except that, y'know, Starfleet Academy was founded in MMCLXI... Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I just realized, they where using transporters BECAUSE they ran out of shuttles.. Nice to see a nod to reality.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
This would've been much better as a one-part "ohmigod look what I have to write my way out of" episode. As it stands, the first part was all setup for this, and while there was some amount of payoff it wasn't that engrossing.
Silik, having been thrown into the bulkhead with Archer's hand around his neck, points out that Archer's changed. Silik also has the lines about humanity not being as pacifist as he previously believed. In other words, Silik seemed to get all the good, important, not-necessarily-the-plot lines.
But, overall, there wasn't really a "bottom" to the show. It was never personal . . . just another day at the office in the Trek universe, and one that didn't come out all that interesting. On the one hand, everyone took the situation too seriously . . . I mean, you've just saved Earth, and now you're up against Nazis. It would've been a perfect opportunity to bleep out a Trip "what the fuck?!?" One can also imagine additional eye- or brain-candy . . . say, in the first part, Archer thinking for some reason that America needed Enterprise's assistance, so Archer takes out the Bismarck, or kills Hitler just to do it, or what-have-you, before focusing on the aliens. But, more to the point of the bottom of the show, this would've been a prime opportunity for Archer to be forced to examine himself and his actions against the Xindi or the guys from "Damage" in the context of the Nazis. Not to say he's been gassing Jews or something, but there's still a lot that could've been done with that concept.
As for the flight over New York . . . yeah, that was just helluva cool, no doubt about it. I think the shot of the mobster seeing the planes overhead would've been better had it been a shot of the guy seeing Enterprise soar overhead, though of course it wasn't written for the right moment.
The ship dropping into the atmosphere, though doable thanks to the precedent of gas giants, is still quite jarring. The other examples can be though of as mere rocketry, but in this case the ship, with warp engines and maneuvering thrusters already described as damaged and without the ability to use shields as any sort of aerodynamic surface, was simply flying at low-speed. The ship is most assuredly not a lifting-body design, and given that her mass ought to be somewhere above half a million metric tons, the whole idea is just a bit wonky.
Other errata:
1. The ship survived re-entry . . . er, entry . . . with all those holes in the hull. While there are certainly ways to offset the need of ballistic re-entry that modern spacecraft have to use, most would take more time. There wasn't much time available, so it would be interesting to try to figure out what sort of heat and stress the ship faced.
2. There was no reason to use torpedoes against the facility. Given the sub-kiloton blast, the weapons had to have been set for tickle. And it's worse that two were used.
2a. Now that Enterprise has returned to Earth, it should be a simple thing to count the number of torpedoes used after her departure from Earth. I bet it's more than Voyager supposedly had in the Delta Quadrant when she got there. One thing that might also be interesting would be to see how many were 'wasted' in low-yield endeavours.
2b. A torpedo on a higher yield detonated anywhere near the fighters would've knocked the lot of them out of the sky.
3. Though the targeting sensors being offline was just an excuse for the New York flight, there's still little excuse for the 50/50 or so missing of the fighters. There's gotta be some sort of backup system, because otherwise the targeting sensors being out leaves the ship a sitting duck against any spaceborne adversary worth his salt. Then again, Voyager did something similar on the Vaadwuar homeworld, so whatever.
More to come.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Except that, y'know, Starfleet Academy was founded in MMCLXI...
Yep, caught that one on O'Reilly's diploma too... So, what now, we suppose there was an Earth Starfleet Academy, like there was an Earth Starfleet before a Federation Starfleet, or what?
And I still stand by my original point regarding the Stukas... they're too old a model, even for being what the Germans trusted Vosk to provide him with...
Regarding science fiction and believability, well, if there's a difference between fantasy and science fiction, it's that the latter at least attempts to make itself look/sound believable.
PS: Hey, and Farscape is coming back this sunday and monday as a 4-hour miniseries, I believe.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The O'Reilly thing could have been a good opportunity to write Cutler out of the show, and give her a little tribute.
Stukas being too old? I think that the timeline mucking could have caused any number of things to show up earlier or later in the war. Or, the Nazis could have been loathe to give Vosk their top-of-the-line fighter-bombers to play with, given that he'd shown few results to that point.
Mark
Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
Why do they always put the newer looking ships farther away!!! Anyway, fleet caps for all!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Awesome work.
And... Yep, I thought so. Steamrunners.
Mark
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
The only think that makes me recognize that last ship as an Earth ship is the sensor dome on the bottom. Before I saw it (thanks to the ever so lovely caps), I assumed it was Andorian. Where the hell did that design come from?
As for the Steamrunner-looking ship (most notable top left) . . . could it possibly be an Intrepid? If not, couldn't we at least pretend? ;-)
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The fighters were probably whatever was German, and they could get their hands on.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There are at least three Steamrunners that I could see. In the second picture, they're in the upper left, centre, and just to the right of the Enterprise bridge dome. I'm sure they figured that an ENT-ish ship in the far background would never be noticed. Shame, shame!
Ah well, at least we know that there're now at least two of the Intrepid's class (we're calling them NV-class, right?) now, and those same two Icelands again. Frankly, putting more of either in the background would have been just as effective. Hell, they should have put in some of the Horizon freighter front ends, that'd have made more sense.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I doubt that those are actually Steamrunners...but GOD DAMN it about the Academy! They had managed to avoid that gaffe so far.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Maybe there really was no way to avoid it. I figure that establishing a Starfleet would also entail the establishing of an academy for the education and training for upcoming new officers.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: I doubt that those are actually Steamrunners...but GOD DAMN it about the Academy! They had managed to avoid that gaffe so far.
I guess someone realized the Steamrunner class was the only one that didn't have a 22nd century lookalike yet...
(NX->Akira, Intrepid->Sabre, Iceland->Norway)
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
What about the Defiant? Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
They do look really like Steamrunners, yes. Glad I'm not the only one to notice that. Or that there are at least two Icelands. OR that the ship above the Enterprise looked Andorian! 8)
Four MACOs seen. Three of them seen previously - the one standing behind Archer when he confronts Silik in the brig (and is also the one on the right when they're escorted to the Transporter) is new, I think. But I don't care, I'm not bloody doing that anymore. I can't, I won't, I shan't. Unless I get really bored one evening. . . No, dammit, not even then!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"-Hm.. When beaming down, Archer and the two MACOs appeared simultaneously. But beaming UP, Trip and Mayweather diappeared one a little after the other."
It's possible that this was intentional. Since that wasn't really Trip, his life-signs may have been slightly off, and the transporter may have taken a second longer to lock on to him. But I don't know whether it was purposely done as a sort of hint, or not.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well.. I had written down some stuff concerning the alternate history and the time-travels, but none of that ever happened, I won't bother
So.. the TCW is over. It was a pretty strange moment. We'll never learn who FutureGuy was, what the Tholians where doing, what that mysterious TARDIS ship was, and how the Klingons were involved.
We do know, however, that Vosk was perhaps the focal point of the entire war. His faction believes that time-travel is just another form of propulsion, and should be free to use (he'd be good friends with Krenim). The Nah'kul have tried to eliminate the Suliban from the timeline, but where stopped by Daniels (his faction has been consistently referred to as the "temporal agents").
Does anyone else feel like Season 3 was just a rather pointless detour? Was Daniels just waiting for them to finish, only to send them after Vosk? And does anyone remember how the Sphere Builders fit into all of this?
Anyway.. all this doesn't seem to really bother anymore, since we're now back into normal, linear time.
Which brings me to the fleet we see above.
I count at least three Intrepids, and two or three Icelands. I also think I see a Vahklas and one of those other small Vulcan ships.
I'm getting major 'Spaceflight Chronology' vibes from that dinky little boat that greets the NX-01. It looks almost like it has some sort of big atmospheric shuttle on it's back.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
I haven't seen the episode yet, only the screencaps, but are you sure those background ships are Steamrunners? I ask because I have a mesh pic of the underside of the Intrepid, and (even though it was fan-created) it does look like a Steamrunner when viewed at that angle.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I'm quite sure those are just Intrepids.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Well, here's what I think. Red = Intrepid, Yellow = Iceland, Blue = Steamrunner. The way the final shot was assembled, the ships stay in position relative to Enterprise, so you can see slightly diffferent views of each in the other screenshots (and as they turn around, though the Steamrunners don't).
For reference, here's the ol' Shiporama page on the Steamrunner, including various shots from similar angles. I believe that the silhouettes match.
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by machf: I guess someone realized the Steamrunner class was the only one that didn't have a 22nd century lookalike yet...
(NX->Akira, Intrepid->Sabre, Iceland->Norway)
Pardon me, but how on Earth do you figure an Intrepid looks like a Saber? If anything, it looks like a Steamrunner.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, the shape of the main hull resembles the Saber's somewhat, though other parts of the ship do resemble the Steamrunner. But I'm going by hull shape here (that's also the main similarity between the Iceland and Norway, aside from the Scandinavian link ).
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
On further inspection (and a clearer computer screen), I think that Mark is right after all; the undersides of the Intrepids and the undersides of the mystery ship don't match. I believe it IS a Steamrunner.
Also, I noticed a few other things. The Hazari ship from the Delta Quadrant is back (from its previous appearance in the ragtag fleet in "Twilight." I wonder if it is supposed to represent an Earth Starfleet vessel. It's actually not too alien a design for this assumption (except for the Eaves-style Dominionesque nacelles).
Also, I believe two of the Vulcan ships are the same as T'Pol's granny's observation ship, and the rescue craft that picked her up in the 1950's! So the Vulcans are in the habit of using ships that are over 200 years old?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Y'know, I just realized a rather large problem with this episode. Daniels said that Vosk's return to his own time is what started the TCW. By stopping him, they caused the TCW never to have happened. Which means Silik and Klaang never would have landed on Earth, the Enterprise never would have visited Qo'noS... Essentially, the entire series never happened.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm, I was under a different impression.
There is a distinction between the temporal cold war (TCW) and the temporal war (TW). All the events up to this two-parter were part of the TCW. However, if Daniels is correct the TCW broke out into a full TW by Vosk making it back from the past to the future. In the full TW agents started altering history outright, including the agent that assassinated Lenin causing the Nazi timeline.
All stopping Vosk did was to bring about the end of the TW, resetting the timelines. However, there is no indication that the TCW is over. Indeed, thats probably why Silik ended up helping Enterprise, Future Guy and the Suliban have as much to lose by a full TW as Daniels.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Ah. Perhaps you're right. I knew they had mentioned that the war had stopped being cold, but I didn't really pay attention too carefully to which references were to the cold war, and which were to the hot.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Per Daniels at the end, the actual Temporal War never happened, and the Temporal Cold War was ending thanks to Archer's actions.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well, I for one wished they hadn't ended it. They didn't need the Nazi episodes - but as mentioned earlier... The Klingon involvement, the Tholian involvement, other factions, that TARDIS ship, who Future Guy is, the Role of the Sphere Builders etc etc.
ALSO - I reckon Silik can come back... if he was killed in the past and Archer - according to Daniels, undid everything Vosk did - then Silik didn't die. Only the Enterprise crew and Daniels knew what happened over the last two episodes.
I mean not EVERY episode has to be about the TCW, but I think they should wrap other aspects of it up down the track.
Is this season still only like 12 episodes long?
And what is going to happen to all the future tech Daniels left in his quarters?
And they were DEFINATELY Steamrunners, I know what they look like at that angle, from staring at the background starships from "Call To Arms" for so long!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
No-one seems to have mentioned it yet, but the historical footage in the 'temporal chamber' at the end also included CGI-shots of a spaceplane.
Which means that in the Enterprise timeline, both X-30 NASP and X-33/VentureStar (or a lookalike) were actually produced. Which is more evidence that Star Trek is really an alternative timeline, and not 'our' timeline.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
That footage, like just about everything in the background, was archived stock footage from something or other. The X-30 shot you mentioned has been in NASA propaganda films for the last fifteen years at least.
There's also a stock NASA shot of a *completed* ISS in there - further evidence that Enterprise is pretty solidly not in our reality.
Mark
Posted by Sarvek (Member # 910) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wes:
Why do they always put the newer looking ships farther away!!! Anyway, fleet caps for all!
Totally awesome pics Wes. Do you have any pics of the NX-01 flying through the atmosphere and/or destroying the time tunnel in Manhattan??
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: No-one seems to have mentioned it yet, but the historical footage in the 'temporal chamber' at the end also included CGI-shots of a spaceplane. ... Which means that in the Enterprise timeline, both X-30 NASP and X-33/VentureStar (or a lookalike) were actually produced. Which is more evidence that Star Trek is really an alternative timeline, and not 'our' timeline.
*shrug* Or maybe the random images just happened to include CGI-shots of a concept spaceplane. Who knows what the criteria for images in a random time warp/reset are.
If one of the images was of a 100 metre high bunny, would you assume that exists in Star Trek too? Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
http://enterprise.fotopic.net/ is usually quite good for pictures - they seem to use the same HDTV source I do - but for some reason the only images they have up from part II are off a non-HDTV video file. . .
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Found a slightly wider-screen shot of one of them:
Mark
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
So here's a rundown on the ships:
Starfleet:
NX-class (Enterprise) Intrepid-type "Iceland"-type Arctic One-type Hazari-type "Steamrunner"-type New vessel
Note: Yes, I know that it's not conclusive that all the ships that I stated are Starfleet vessels actually are. But with the absence of other civilian vessels, and the likelihood that Starfleet would be defending Earth from the Xindi probe, I'm assuming they are.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Agreed with Harry that the nacelle-less little thing shouts "Spaceflight Chronology, Spaceflight Chronology, beep beep!" as it flies. I'm writing a suitable Guide entry now.
Also agreed that the Hazari and Arctic types are okay for Earth vessels, although they could also be Earth vessels bought from alien manufacturers...
Incidentally, does this fleet mean that all Starfleet hangs around Earth, or within a year's cruise - or that Starfleet in fact has dozens of Intrepids, so that three of them can reach Earth in time?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
More likely the fleet we see is the result of the defence policy shift following the Xindi attack. Starfleet withdraws more of its fleet to homeworld defence, to the point that they can deploy a force that large and that fast when a ship suddenly appears out of nowhere, as we see here.
We're supposed to see a little of how the world has changed in this week's episode. Mind you, without much of a frame of reference, we're left to wonder how it was in the first place...
Mark
Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :
Any chance of caps showing the "real" earth space-dohickys, like ISS, spaceplane, saturn, spaceshuttle and so on?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
