I'm not sure how much life this has got in it but I found it pretty interesting to think over... Reading the encyclopedia it stated that to traverse the 10,000 light-years of the Federation at warp 9.2 would take five years. This mens that as much as half of starfleet never saw action in the Dominion war, also there must be starfleet ships out there with no Humans, Vulcans, Betazoids, Benzites at all aboard, ships that have never been near the neutral zone or encountered a Borg ship. Starfleert command could still direct policy as a subspace signal apparently only takes 18 days to cover the distance, but things like ship design, ship yards, crew enlistment, all must be highly decentralised. What would be the point in transferring a human crew member to a starbase that was five years travel away! Likewise there must also be more than one starfleet acadamy, otherwise these fresh faced cadets would be in their mid-twenties by the time they arrived at their new posts! With all the talk of the franchise running out of Steam, its interesting that there is virtually a whole new universe of potential stories to be had that still involve the federation, allbeit a federation we have not yet seen...
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The impact of the size of the Federation fluctuates depending on the needs of the story.
For example: We're lead to believe that Bajor and DS-9 are way out in the sticks, so to speak. It's the frontier, as Bashir noted. Yet, Sisko can go from Earth to DS-9 in 3 weeks. That doesn't seem to be "way out there."
Then there's the very short trip the NX-01 was scheduled to take to Q'onoS. And that was no faster than Warp 5. Miraculous subspace eddied or warp currents helped Sisko's solar sail ship make it from Bajor to Cardassia Prime in no time (hey, I'm a poet!).
There really isn't much left of the Federation as a showl that we haven't yet seen. We've been to the Cardassian/Breen borders to the "west" and to the Klingon/Romulan borders to the "east." We've also been to the edge of the galaxy to the "south." The "north" is the only really unexplored area, and we know ultimately that leads toward the center of the galaxy.
The Enterprise D made it all around the Federation from border to border within the 7 years of her mission.
Detailed discussions about this topic can be found at:
I really don't see an argument. The show consistently makes the Federation to be a relatively small place to travel, the longest time being (I think) a few months, said by Yates in an episode of DS9.
The idea that it would take 5 years to cross the Federation at speeds that surely no more than 1% of all commercial starships could reach is fairly ludicrous.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
One might argue that the extremities of the UFP are indeed separated by five years - but that nobody goes to those godforsaken places anyway. They are merely mentioned in certain diplomatic situations, to make the UFP sound mightier than it really is...
The borders that Starfleet really cares about (and can do something about) probably lie a lot closer to Earth. Within that volume, communications are more or less instantaneous (the Romulan border areas notwithstanding - permanent bad weather there?). Yet even there, Starfleet response to incursions is usually limited to a single starship, suggesting that the volume is quite large. Starfleet would not willingly choose to underequip itself that way if the option did exist of sending ten starships per each square lightyear of the border. A central volume a couple of hundred lightyears across, and with a somewhat irregular surface, would already present a massive challenge, and would remain largely undefended unless Starfleet was able to build hundreds of thousands of ships.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The size of the Federation isn't the only thing that fluctuates. The reliablility of printed source material also seems to have an on/off switch around here.
I don't recall anything said on-air that would indicate a size of the Federation other than the travel times already mentioned. Though I could easily see areas of explored space, possibly ones that have even been claimed by the Federation, that take up to a year to reach. The Olympia had been sent on a long-term deep space mission. Likewise, Starfleet sent two deep space vessels to intercept Voyager, guessing they might meet up in a number of years. Future Harry had also been on a long term mission. So known destinations being that far out isn't unthinkable. But a Federation that big almost certainly is.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
THere's also the volumetric aspect to Federation space thats mostly overlooked. The maps we've seen are all very two dimensional. Indeed, most empires probably have claimed space "overlapping" each other (which might explain how the KLingons can share a border with just about anyone the writers decide).
It's indeed silly to think that the Enterprise D circumnavigated the Federation during it's first seven years of service, but then again, Kirk's Enterprise (with presumably lower warp speeds and sustainibility) sure got around.
Captain Yaes' assertion of "five months to Cestus Three" probably only applies to her cow of a freighter (her ship might be 100 years old for all we know).
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Though someone did once put forth the speculation that the D's original mission might indeed have been to circumnavigate the Federation, until various threats and detours sidetracked them and brought the ship closer to home. If not that, they were certainy not supposed to be as close as they ended up being. Picard talked about the "great unexplored mass of the galaxy" or something in the opening lines of the pilot. Seems like he expected to be sent into unexplored space.
They started out at Farpoint, presumably on the far edges of the Federation. They were on the far outskirts during the first and second seasons, though still managed to get back to Earth fairly quickly both when the bugs were taking over and when the Borg attacked.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wasn't the USS Valiant's mission to circumnavigate the Federation? Seems like an awful long time to be stuck aboard a Defiant class starship. For cadets no less- when would they finish their studies if they're away for several years on a training cruise?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Indeed, you are correct!
quote:COLLINS The training cruise was supposed to last three months. We had seven regular officers and a crew of thirty-five cadets. The plan was for the cadets to run the ship while the officers observed and critiqued our performance.
JAKE So this was a training ship. Like that other one... the, uh... uh -- the Republic.
Collins is tolerant, but clearly making an effort not to be too condescending to Jake.
COLLINS Not quite. The Republic's an old ship -- I don't think she's left the Terran System in fifty years. The Valiant's a state of the art warship. Our mission was to circumnavigate the entire Federation before returning home.
JAKE The entire Federation? With a ship of cadets?
Collins bristles.
COLLINS Not just cadets. Red Squad cadets.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The Star Trek Cartography site lists two theories, one of a large Federation, the other of a small Federation with facts supporting each claim.
Large Federation:
Theory of a large Federation
quote:Thesis: The Federations has an extension of almost ten thousand light years.. Proofs: Star Trek Encyclopedia (text) 10000 ly Star Trek: First Contact (quote) 8000 ly [TNG] The Chase (map) more than 10000 ly Numbered sectors belonging to the Federation 3000 ly or more Position of real stars 2000 ly or more Situational relations to locations outside the Federation 5000 ly or more Conclusion: The theory of a large Federation can't be ignored for the mere reason that it is directly proven by the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Star Trek: First Contact. It is true that there is almost no on screen support (only in The Next Generation), however, some special aspects of the Star Trek universe underpin this theory.
Theory of a small Federation
quote:Thesis: The Federation territory has an extension of a few hundred light years, possibly even less than hundred light years. Proofs: [DS9] In the Hands of the Prophets (map) about 200 ly [DS9] The Way of the Warrior (quote) 200-500 ly [DS9] Trials and Tribble-ations (quote) 200 ly [DS9] The Visitor (quote) hundreds of light years [DS9] Valiant (calculation) 100-200 ly Rational considerations 500 ly at maximum Conclusion: Especially the DS9 universe is mainly based on a only few hundred light years large Federation, but also rational considerations in view of the government of such a large empire and the voyages throughout the entire Federation, that were shown in all episodes and movies, support these theory.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:The theory of a large Federation can't be ignored for the mere reason that it is directly proven by the Star Trek Encyclopedia and Star Trek: First Contact
"Proven" probably isn't the word to use there. "Stated", maybe.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
I'd rather believe the warp highway theories.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Either that or the size of the Federation and the size of its territories are two different things.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Very likely.
Besides, it's not as though solar sytems are butted up against each other: the lines about the Federation being 200 LY might apply to the actual systems only, with the vast empty regions between systems being federation territory but not counted.
Theres also the notion of federation "protectorate systems". This would apply to worlds petitioning to join the UFP, systems with treaties with the UFP for protection and trade but without actual member status (think Puerto Rico's relationship with the US) and probably worlds in areas between empires that are pre-warp or pre-First Contact that the UFP protects from outside interference (say from Romulan domination or Data playing with his HAM radio).
There may be many protected pre-warp systems that fall within Federation space that are not only not members, but have no idea that the UFP exists at all.
Mabye it's best to just think of the line from The Valiant as
quote:"Our mission was to circumnavigate the Federation core systems before returning home.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or perhaps we're not thinking Freudian enough here?
Circumnavigating a 8,000-ly-long cigar might not take all that much time.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The size of the Federation should pretty much be classed as cannon, its fair that the distance between certain worlds is condensed for story telling purposes but that doesn't rule out the idea of a new Federation being explored in any new series. The idea of a Starship/taskforce from our federation arriving on the other side after a five year journey, and being briefed on by a none-corporial Admiral on the problems faced there, a ten year long border war with the '.... Empire", the recent escalating tensions with the "......Alliance which has been at the Federations throat since Kirk's Era. It could be fascinating.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Unles that Cigar is 2,000 ly wide. Then you're looking at 20,000 light years to travel. Honestly, I think the 8,000 light year figure is as it's widest point. I would like to think that Fed space is not circular but more like the shape of a spider. So the main bulk of the Federation would be far smaller.
But I still favor the warp highways. It fixes any contradticting speeds that episodes might have produced.