Here's one for all you experts at telling physical and CGI models apart. I was watching the DS9 seventh season opener, "Image in the Sand," the other day and noticed this shot of a Galaxy-class ship docked at the station. Something about it (particularly the detailing of the panels on the ventral saucer and the way the light diffuses across it) suggested a physical model to me, although the other ships in the scene appear to be CGI. I'm uncertain, though.
Anyway, I suddenly thought "If that is a physical model, then it could be the Trinculo!" and decided to float the idea here. We know they were still doing some physical shots during the seventh season (witness the new footage of the Nash a few episodes later in "Chrysalis") so it seemed possible. Of course, that could be a CGI shot of DS9 itself, in which case it wouldn't make any sense for the Galaxy to be otherwise when all other elements were CGI.
Thoughts?
-MMoM Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I think it liklier to be footage of the Enterprise-D from "Emissary" re-used, with CG elements added.
--Jonah
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I don't believe we ever saw the E-D from that angle in "Emissary," though. Over the past several months, I've been watching the DS9 DVDs in order and I don't recall any such shot in any previous episode of the series, actually.
-MMoM Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Hm. Then unless anyone can come up with something different, I'm happy saying it's either an unused shot from "Emissary" or the elusive Trinculo.
--Jonah
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, for starters, the ship doesn't even look like it's docked with the station. It's pointing in the same direction as the pylon.
It looks to me like a shot of the Ent D passing by from TNG comped in with a bunch of other stuff.
As to what shiup it's actually supposed to be... dunno.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I agree with Aban- it's the tandard TNG shot we've seen a zillion times composited in there.
Lookie- the Wairds are actually in their correct scale! A christmas miracle.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
CGI composite. I always thought it absurd that a supposedly busy "hub of commerce" space station never seemed to have that many ships docked to it. I think around the 3rd or 4th season they added some triangular ship and then the runabouts but in general I would've expected much more for a spaceport.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Hub of commerce" is pushing it a little, I think, at least for the majority of the series.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I agree - always got the impression DS9 was, as far as the wider galaxy went, a bit of a backwater place and not of much interest to many of the major powers other than as a staging point for use of the wormhole.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, what I mean specifically is that the station was only really a waystation for civilians for that brief period between the discovery of the wormhole and the breaking out of hostilities with the Dominion.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
After the start of the war, they consistantly had Federation and Allied ships docked or in close proximity.
Posted by Cpt. Kyle Amasov (Member # 742) on :
The Vor'cha is CG (the color of the texture gives it away - I've seen that texture far too many times...), and the Warbird is CG, too (take a close look at the nose). So I guess it's safe to assume that the Galaxy is CG, too. The window lights are clearly visible in that shot, and I doubt they'd dig out the model, do some additional shots just to add some lights to the ship to give it some more depth and imsert it somwhere in a corner of a 2-second stock shot.
IIRC, there are only two existing shots of a model Galaxy docked at DS9; the Emissary/Birthright/The Jem'Hadar-footage (E-D docked at upper pylon, camera facing upwards from the docking ring) and the (modified) Venture from WotW.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I really don't think it would be worth the effort for them to take a non-cgi lower grade 2nd generation (by that point of editing) composite of stock E-D footage from TNG and put it into a CGI scene of a Galaxy docked at Deep Space Nine.
Considering the season 6 Finale had the Galaxy in it, it most possibly could be that ship. Doesn't look like a physical model E-D to me, anyway. A Larger cap would be nice. Oh and just one more thing - look at the light source on the Galaxy Class ship - and the station - it all matches. I don't think they would have sifted through footage to find a shot where the light shines from some exact angle and then match it up to DS9 footage or vice versa.
Andrew
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
That's CGI most likely... and if it's the USS Galaxy they are using the pylon and angle to hide the battle damage.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
If they had all the models available as CGI, I have no doubt it's all CGI. Unless it's just rediculously easy to composite existing footage with new elements.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Like I said, it's the way the light plays across the panelling on the saucer underside that really suggests a physical model. CGI (especially during this time period) usually has a more smooth, shiny look to it.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
What is the ship on the right side of the picture? I am not familiar with that ship.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
It's the CGI version of the Klingon Vor'cha attack cruiser.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: If they had all the models available as CGI, I have no doubt it's all CGI. Unless it's just rediculously easy to composite existing footage with new elements.
Exactly - the only physical model there is DS9. They never made a CGI version of DS9. That sucks.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes they did. Just not before "What You Leave Behind," as I recall. (And if memory serves the CG model wasn't exactly a triumph.)
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Did they? I thought Mojo came here and said there wasn't one. Even the Ships of the Line calendars used the physical model.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Such is my belief.
(Pray for) Mojo did make that claim, though, here.
I'm leaning in favor of my apparently wholly unfounded belief, on account of facts always getting in my way.
I'll let the jokes make themselves.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Wasn't the WYLB model something one of the modelers had done in their spare time or something?
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
In any case, that DS9 CGI really didn't look that real in WYLB...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Was the CGI model only used for that last pullback shot? Or did they use it other places as well?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'm gathering for the final pullback shot. It's a pity they never did a really good CGI model for DS9 - then they could have had shots that were impossible with the motion control rig. Ships of the line stuff would be cool too.
That should be coming out for 2006 soon shouldn't it?
What happened to Mojo's work for his book - remember he previewed the McKinley station model? That looked really cool.
Andrew
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"I'm gathering for the final pullback shot."
Are you?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Heheheheh - I'm gathering it was...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Might there not be some mention of this somewhere on, say, the DS9 season 7 DVDs? If anyone has them?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I can see why they never bothered doing a CGI model. The main advantage of CGI is that you can put lots of motion into the shots, and DS9 was pretty static. It might have been useful occasionally, but I'm sure there were better ways of spending the SFX budget.
And as to those Warbirds being in scale...how can you tell? They could be twice the size but twice as far back (or whatever).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, they look "correct" scale to be because they are far away, but still huge. On TNG the Warbird always seemed so much smaller (with that big empty area in the center) than the Galaxy (most of the time) due to scaling errors.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Um..what is the Trinculo's registry anyway? Is there one stated somewhere (on a viewscreen or something)?
I have a purdy Galaxy class (refit with Venture phaser bumps on the nacelles) model waiting paint and Decals. And a name.
The ship could actually exist- in my fleet, anyway. Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Aren't they all named the I.S.S. Abbadon-(enter appropriate hexidecimal character here)?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
As for the Trinculo's registry, I've seen NCC-71867.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Thanks! I forsee a (possibly battle damaged) USS Trinculo model in the new future. Hmmmn. The registry seems a bit low for a Galaxy, no?
...and no, I have no "I.S.S." ships.
Though I do sport an Evil goatee.
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
Actually, if registries are chronological, then the U.S.S. Trinculo NCC-71867 would be the newest Galaxy Class Explorer. This could be contested if the U.S.S. Magellan has a higher registy. (I belong to the faction which believes this ship in "Sacrifice of Angels" is a sister ship to the U.S.S. Galaxy NX-70637 . I am basing my opinion on two sources: the Deep Space Nine Technical Manuel and the visual evidence from the episode.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, just toss out anything from the DS9TM- that's chock full o' errors.
I thought I saw a Galaxy with a 72XXX registry (Challenger?).
I could have been high though.
...and here I just built a Galaxy with a 74XXX registry too. (shrugs)
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
No, there isn't a Galaxy Class with a NCC-74XXX registry so far...
The lowest was the NCC-70637, then NCC-71099 for USS Challenger. Unless of course they decided to name and make registries for the Galaxy Classes that we never see up close.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well, they look "correct" scale to be because they are far away, but still huge. On TNG the Warbird always seemed so much smaller
But how do you know that they are far away?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, they dont overshadow the station, so they are either far away and correctly scaled, at a medium distance and scaled at the common TNG size or they are the Hallmark Christmas ornaments and are inches from the camera.
I choose to beieve the first option- dont take that away from me liam! You never let me have anything nice! (runs away sobbing)
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Oh great... you are going to make Jason cry now. Thanks Liam...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Why? Now's the perfect opportunity for you to make your move.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hey, I'm not that vulnerable. ....though if you've got a sister, I could be consoled. Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
I do but one is a 17 year old sex addict and a 22 year old sex addict that's worn out her boyfriend already.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Your use of the term "but" seems inappropriate...
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"I do but one is a 17 year old sex addict and a 22 year old sex addict..."
The nymphomania gene jumped more than a few X-chromosomes in your family, didn't it?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I've never quite been able to wrap my little brain around the concept of *too much* sex.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Mmmm . . . nymphos.
Oh, right, um, anyway:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Like I said, it's the way the light plays across the panelling on the saucer underside that really suggests a physical model. CGI (especially during this time period) usually has a more smooth, shiny look to it.
I thought at first it might be CGI, since on the warp nacelle blue-glowy-bits there seemed to be a trace of the lighter-blue center glow as seen on the ToTP Galaxy CGI ships.
However, I then took your pic and brightened it while reducing the contrast. Upon doing so, it becomes clear that the vessel has a dark gray stripe around the deck(s) housing the forward torpedo launcher, and if you look closely there's also dark gray along the rim of the connecting dorsal's rear face . . . as if to imply that the rear face is also gray.
I believe this means that this is the "War Galaxy" or "Cobra Galaxy" model, as often seen in shots around Starbase 375.
The ventral saucer paneling also supports this conclusion.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I've never quite been able to wrap my little brain around the concept of *too much* sex.
That's only because you're not having it. I'm not saying it's not nice, but there are times when all you want is a nice cup of tea.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: Mmmm . . . nymphos.
Oh, right, um, anyway:
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Like I said, it's the way the light plays across the panelling on the saucer underside that really suggests a physical model. CGI (especially during this time period) usually has a more smooth, shiny look to it.
I thought at first it might be CGI, since on the warp nacelle blue-glowy-bits there seemed to be a trace of the lighter-blue center glow as seen on the ToTP Galaxy CGI ships.
However, I then took your pic and brightened it while reducing the contrast. Upon doing so, it becomes clear that the vessel has a dark gray stripe around the deck(s) housing the forward torpedo launcher, and if you look closely there's also dark gray along the rim of the connecting dorsal's rear face . . . as if to imply that the rear face is also gray.
I believe this means that this is the "War Galaxy" or "Cobra Galaxy" model, as often seen in shots around Starbase 375.
The ventral saucer paneling also supports this conclusion.
Wait...I thought the "War/Cobra Galaxys" *were* CGI. Wasn't the explanation for the dark neck that it was a CGI compositing error?
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: I do but one is a 17 year old sex addict and a 22 year old sex addict that's worn out her boyfriend already.
Her boyfriend was a sissy. If she wears me out (the 22 year old sister, mind you- no jailtime for me, thanks) I'll buy you a beer. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'll drink tea when I'm old.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
You are old.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I drink iced tea now...the only way concievable when the median tempature is 92 degrees (Fahrenheit, guys- it's not that hot over here.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"You are old."
Yet still sexier than you will ever be.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Trying to live up to impossible standards is what keeps us going, so I shall continue to try (and fail) to be sexier than Aban.
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I drink iced tea now...the only way concievable when the median tempature is 92 degrees (Fahrenheit, guys- it's not that hot over here.
A hot cup of tea can actually be quite refreshing when the temperature is high outside. Scientific research done by Dr Super Dude has proven that it actually helps cool you down more than, say, Fanta with ice in it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
When it's in the mid-ninties, a hot cup of tea would probably seem room tempature or "slightly warm". People sometimes get ill from drinking really cold stuff on a very hot day: an ex of mine threw up once from that when we were at an airshow.
Of course, it could have been that it was her fourth margharita, but I like my theory better.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
So, since this topic has now degenerated into something inane as is usual, is it thread-locking time?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nonsense! I have a question that will drag this here thread kicking and screaming back onto topic:
Where does this name "USS Trincolo" come from? Is it something Okuda mentioned, a studio model pic or is it just fan speculation?
It's kinda odd that a minor character from The Tempest should warrant a Galaxy class starship name.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The U.S.S. Trinculo NCC-71867 was the last known labeling of the four-foot physical Galaxy model, seen at exhibitions featuring the model. For a long time it has been debated whether it ever appeared on screen or if it was simply labeled like that for the exhibitions. There is no conclusive evidence either way.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's silly to think they went to the trouble of re-labeling the ship just for a display- decaling (particularly on that scale) is a pain in the ass.
Got a pic of said ship...mabye on that there "website" I hear you have?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, apparently they did it for the Valkyrie, because the Constellation model never appeared after "Redemption II" (TNG), and it was still labeled as the Hathaway in that ep.
Oh, and I've been trying to find a picture of the Trinculo for more than three years...with no success. But I am assured by multiple individuals that they do exist.
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I heard that Elvis had a pic and that the model itself is being held at Groom Lake.....
As to the valkerie, they might have intended to use it for a DS9 shot (instead of some frankenbash) but did not shoot it for some reason.. Besides, we all know that "Valkerie" refers to tiny-tiny federation fighters that can take out a Romulan Warbird if you hit it enough times. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Actually, we all know that "Valkerie" isn't a word.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Tell it to the choosers of the slain, pallie. You gonna tell them how to spell their name?
Yeah, that's what I thought. Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
It did... at least until the hard drive that it was stored in was destroyed in an earthquake here in Los Angeles a while ago.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What exhibit was it from?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Heeeey! I noticed something tonight whilst re-watching DS9:SOA....the grey necks on the Galaxys dont match the saucer's seperation lines- they arc up to the main shuttlebay.
I know (naturally) that no one else has ever noticed this and I'm a pioneer and all, but why do you guys think the CGI model was made this way? It's an odd thing to intentionally add to the ship.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Well the area between the separation line and the shuttlebay is where the main arboretum was (the big square arrays of windows). If the darker grey hull plating is meant to be armour...
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If it's armor, why does it stop midway towards the saucer's impulse engines (an obvious target) and no on th shuttlebay itself?
Mabye they needed to protect ther on-board stash from Dominion attack. What with war being so stressful and all.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I need a picture. I've never noticed this darker hull plating of which you speak.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
?!
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
The USS Trinculo was seen in a traveling exzibit that went around various Planet Hollywoods in the mid 1990's. The USS Venture model was seen in 1995 in a Planet Hollywood around the same time the USS Trinculo model made a tour. Few photos are around of the latter model... some of which was destroyed in a hard drive that was crushed during a minor earthquake in Los Angeles. I am the owner of that hard drive...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I need a picture. I've never noticed this darker hull plating of which you speak.
I checked Pedro's Shiporama to no avail...
The scene in question is of the fleet moving out from Starbase 375 (the super-sized Regula model) in SOA.
What we really need is agood screencapper to save us. Help us Cartman- you're our only hope!
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Hmmm... I had to lighten it in Photoshop to see it, but yah... that's weird. The dark lighting of the shot is probably why I never noticed it before.
Thanks.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yes, weird..and obviously intentional (though not lighting the main impulse engine might be an oversight by VFX guys *somehow* unfamilliar with the ship).
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
go-faster-stripes... ;-)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes, yes, that joke is so 1999.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Give him some slack- his country always gets stuff later than we do.
I'm sure Andrew is sporting a Members Only jacket even now.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Wait, are you talking about Germany or Australia, then? I think you're confused.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Whatever, anything outside the U.S. is backward and behind the times.
(dodges hurled objects)
Yes, I thought Austin was Andrew for a moment- the post had Andrew's flavor of writing and I was busy with work stuff and not paying much attention.
Though... Germany is home to many fans of David Hasselhoff's music so I may not have been too far wrong with my joking assesment....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Jason, I'm gonna come over there and bitch-slap your right-and-proper in a minute!
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Won't that take you, like, 12 hours? Assuming you already had your ticket.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Plus another 12 at Ft. lauderdale International Security Megaplex.
Longer if they lose your shoes like they did my sister's (only about 15 minutes, but still). YOu culd lose your Member's Only Jacket in the confusion.
As I now work for Fed-Ex, I could arrange you to be shipped cargo- kinda chilly. You'd thaw out quickly though, in our 94 degree weather today. ...and yes, I do mean celsius.
Plus, my car has no A.C.,and my Fed-Ex uniform is long-sleeved and pitch black.
I may need to borrow a jacket (not your's though!) when I finally get to Hell.
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