This has been bugging me recently. Almost all the websites out there list the length of the workbee as 4.11 meters, which is from the DS9 Tech Manual. This is the size I drew it up as in Corel Draw, but it looked big to me, especially considering the cutaway view from the DS9TM that shows a single seat. Recently, I came across the TMP blueprints from 1979 that has the workbee shown at 2.7 meters. These also have the added feature of the silhouette of a person in the cockpit. This shorter length seemed much more reasonable to me, so I decided to test it:
The person is 1.8m tall, the Type 15 is 3.6m in length, and the Type 6 is 6m long. As you can see, the person I drew in matches the 2.7m length version nearly perfectly, and the scale compared to the shuttles looks much better as well. So, where did the DS9TM come up with the 4.11m figure, and why?
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Because the DS9TM is crap, that's why.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yes.
Why did Sternbach even do it - when he really worked on Voyager. Did he even work that much on DS9? He added to the 'communal' design of the station. Designed the runabouts. That's about it isn't it? Jim Martin designed the Defiant and the Jemmie Bug.
The Galor Class was Sternbach's, but from TNG.
Hideki? Jemmie Cruiser? The Kitbash info could have been done by anyone.
More about the unseen sections of the Station would have been better.
Comparisons between the Cardassian Occupation use and the Federation use of the station - i.e. Ore Processing, different promenade etc.
Someone else could have done it - infact someone else could STILL do a better job. Even the artwork was reused from the Encyclopaedia - which was still Drexler's work anyway. There at least could have been some conformity of art styles used between all the different classes though. Some are thin-lined, others are shaded with squares etc.
Even other inner workings etc - Jemmie Bridges, Cardassian Weapons Platforms, Starbase 375, the inner workings of the Wormhole - like what the hell were those Verteron Nodes from "Playing God"?
Still, a DS9 tech manual could be redone to be much better than the tech manual that exists now.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Though there's no overriding reason to think that the workbee in the credits is scaled the same as the original, especially when all we've got to compare it with is the station.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye 4.11 size refers to the Workbee with the manipulator arms attached? That would be about the right length... After all, the Workbee (as shown) is pretty useless with the arms aor the cargo sled.
The DS9TM has it's charm....I think Sternbach got it dumped on him because he was fast with Illustrator (while Eaves' stuff seems to be more traditional sketches than technical illustration) and Jim Martin was replaced with a Founder or something.
I like the 4.11 length of the Workbee- it's more of a shuttle and less an obvious deathtrap at that scale. At 2.7 meters, the workbee's hull must be paper thin......fuuuuck that noise. Same for the pictured "shuttlepod"- the worst design from TNG (well, aside from the laughably lame Exocomps, that is). Better to just be inside a powered EVA suit in that case.
B.J., try sliding the pilot forward some, putting him in a EVA suit and (mabye) adding a back seat or equipment locker behind the seat....I think that might work for the larger size... Though something between the 2.7 and 4.11 scales would be ideal.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
So the intitial design of the Workbee is suppose to be 2.7m then from the TMP sketch?
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Thanks for spotting this error, B.J. I never cared about the workbee size as long as it was just spacious enough for one pilot. Well, I would prefer the 4.11m version over the 2.7m tin can though.
The only reason for scaling it up I can imagine is that whoever did it wanted it to have the same clear height as the Type 15.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Speaking of which, The TNG TM tries to claim that Type 15 could perform some of the functions of the workbee. For example, changing the external sensor pallets of the ship would be possible by using a shuttlepod.
Anybody care to postulate what sort of manipulator arms the pod would carry? Are they a permanent fixture, stowed underneath the pod in that boxy lower part that carries the weight of the prop? Are they attached somewhere, perhaps to the hatch things aft of the personnel entry doors? (They'd probably block personnel access, then, though...)
If we take the Type 15 to be the 24th century answer to workbee, could we correspondingly postulate that the 23rd century workbee could serve as a personnel transport with suitable attachments?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
On the probert pics - I wouldn't mind taking one of those shuttles out for a ride!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Me neither. But why do you have to take off your clothes to do it? Are the workbees that cramped?
(Or did Probert just have a limited color pallette available? I swear, the first thing I thought when I saw the zoom-ins was that Probert was taking some crazy Roddenberry memo a bit too seriously...)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Hmmm.... Just doing a quick-and-dirty look at the Workbee with the arms fully extended, it still doesn't quite match the 4.11m dimension (comes out around 3.7m). HOWEVER, it does match if you scale up the workbee proper to around 3m, and it has the added bonus of looking closer to Probert's concept painting (comparing the scales of the people with the workbee). I'll have to do up a proper comparison and upload it later.
B.J.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
A double-wide -3 meter version- might me nice- one pilot and one constructiuon worker for the manipulator arms and detailed assembly stuff.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
It won't fit another person - it's only slightly bigger than the 2.7m version. But it looks comfier, and much closer in scale to the version in Probert's painting.
B.J.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
One of the Jackill's guides is filled with workbee variants, including, as I recall, a two-seater, and a whole host of modules for them to pull.
Ships of the Fleet volume II, is the one.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Looking at B.J.'s new sketch, it seems plausible that the workbee should be somewhat bigger. Starfleet is not entirely composed of humanoids who would fit into a cockpit of the size of a Mini Cooper.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
True, not all humanoids in Starfleet can fit into a Type 15 Shuttlepod either. We can always say that Starfleet decided that the smaller Workbee was made bigger when replacements were needed... easier to make a Workbee bigger than a Constitution Class nacelle.
Wasn't there the shot of USS Voyager that shows it's nacelles open with Type 9 shuttles hovering around? It would somewhat make sense that someone in EdenFX remembered that the Type 15 can double as Workbees for repairs... although they could just have used them since they didn't have a CGI workbee lying around.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: One of the Jackill's guides is filled with workbee variants, including, as I recall, a two-seater, and a whole host of modules for them to pull.
Ships of the Fleet volume II, is the one.
Yeah, but they also have "Killer Bees" iwth missiles and phaser pods and fanboy stuff that works great....in the Mirror Universe.
Great new illustration, B.J.- really making it practical at 3 meters.
Makes me want to assemble a crack team of fan artists to make an online technical manual. Kind of an open source project like we've had in the past, but not so secretive. Like JOAT but Flare only.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Wasn't the workbee in the DS9 opening credits CGI, or did they pull the old model out (and when would it have last been used before that, anyway?)
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
I think it was a filmed model. I seem to recall seeing a picture of it at a show or some such, but it was colored as the DS9 opener version.
I think Voyager's cutaway had actual Workbee silhouettes in her shuttlebay.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Why not? Voyager's shuttlebay had a very TARDIS-like quality to it already. What's a few Workbees compared with the shuttles, Delta Flyer and visiting/ bought craft?
I think the DS9 'bee is a physical model, but I've never seen it's studio model.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The "work bee" filming model from TMP (I can't quite tell if you guys are thinking there was a different one for DS9 or not) is pictured a little more than halfway down this page and even includes a human figure inside. I thought it might be helpful.
-MMoM Posted by Captain39 (Member # 1001) on :
I wonder if any of the people at that party noticed that the A on the registry wasn't supposed to be there yet if it was a screening of ST:TMP.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
George seems to be keeping his distance from Bill, too. Let it go George, and put your arm around him!
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
If it wasn't for Bill, George would have had the Excelsior much sooner.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know. Hence the "let it go" comment. I doubt that Takei's movie career was affected one way or the other.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain39: I wonder if any of the people at that party noticed that the A on the registry wasn't supposed to be there yet if it was a screening of ST:TMP.
Well, I doubt anyone even considered relabeling the model merely for the purpose of this dinner. Besides, most people probably didn't notice.
-MMoM Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Double, double, toil and trouble... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What model could that possibly be though? It's far too small for any of the studio models I've seen, yet far larger than the ERTL kit.
Anyone notice that the workbee model seems to show it's larger than 2.7 meters?
Looks at least three to me- based on the 'lil guy inside.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Wait, I thought you said you hadn't seen the model...?
What is the reason to think there are multiple models?
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I meant the model in the link you provided.
Looks bigger than the 2.7 stated length to me.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
You said it was smaller than the models you had seen. What other models are these?
[EDIT: Oh, is it the Enterprise model you meant? Because I'm pretty sure that's the model used in all the films.]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, I was talking about the Enterprise model- it's not the big expensive version- that's much larger (and I doubt they'd risk some ass knocking it off the table after too much champagne).
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Nope, I think that is indeed the one and only studio model of the ship, which can also be seen here. That site says it's approximately 7 feet long, though I think I've heard 8 elsewhere. Perhaps you're thinking of the gigantic replica from the Experience? (Pictures of that coming soon from me! )
-MMoM Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's just that the one on the table does not look that big in the pics.
Stupid of them to have it anywhere near food- some ass could easily slop something on it.
I'm kinda suprised that Workbee model has not found it's way onto an Ebay prop auction yet....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't see the problem with them putting it near food. It's not like it's ever going to be used again.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
"It belongs in a museum!"
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
"It should be hauled away as garbage!"
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
While I tend to agree with Timo's statement (for design reasons), I do think it belongs in a museum.
Why not after all? that silly shround of Turin is in one and that's hardly a signifigant object of worship comared to the Enterprise.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Actually, the Shroud of Turin is kept in a church.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Really? I thought it was on some sort of touring museum exhibit a while back. All the pretty golden (read: stolen from the oppressed masses) papal objects were recently on display at our museum.
Meh...makes sense, I suppose- bits and chunks of various saints are kept in jars and boxes in churches as relics, so why not the shroud?
Still, I think the Enterprise is more of an international icon than one religion's bogus bloody cloth (thus warranting Smithsonian status- I mean fuck plenty of other T.V. crap is already in there).
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Why not? Voyager's shuttlebay had a very TARDIS-like quality to it already. What's a few Workbees compared with the shuttles, Delta Flyer and visiting/ bought craft?
I saw them in there. I can't remember the episode...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
See!?! that pic proves the Workbee is 3 meters long!
You should add Teegan and Turlough wandering around in there somewhere....
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That picture also proves that Stormtroopers are about twelve feet tall...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And that TOS shuttles are larger than Runabouts, but it's still a nice image.
Mabye Harry Kim is just really small (explaining why he was always overlooked for promotion. Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I should have mentioned that there may be some innacuracies of scale.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
