ST suuuure thinks small compared to other franchises.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
When looking at the "big girls", the Vorlon Planetkiller sure looks teenie-weenie. To think a ship like that could blow up a planet, harumph.
Even worse is the little ship in the beginning of MiB2. Really ridiculous concept.
And the two Death Stars, I never thought about 160km and 800km in diameter was that big a dif!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Any site where you can place the Stay Puft marshmellow man on the nose of a Star destroyer is cool with me. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
When I saw the Trek ships it got me thinking, has anyone done a 3-view schematic of Shinzon's Scimitar cruiser?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Wow, the D'deridex looks a lot bigger than the Galaxy. I never realised how huge they are...
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"And the two Death Stars, I never thought about 160km and 800km in diameter was that big a dif!"
Yeah, the diameter may not seem much larger, but the increase in volume is astro-f*cking-nomical...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote: ST suuuure thinks small compared to other franchises.
And in my opinion - more realistically. Imagine the resources needed to build something like the friggin' Deathstar.
I notice he hasn't put the Dyson Sphere there OR V'ger - with cloud which was like 80 AUs!
Or Yonada from "For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky".
Gee that's a great title for an episode. So memorable - unlike Voyager's and now Enterprise's (some). All those one-worders for Voyager episodes. Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
V'ger is there... that thing isn't as huge as the moon though...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
That v'Ger ship, did we ever see that design in the middle of the "cloud"??? Where does that picture come from??? Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
1 AU is the distance from the Sun to the Earth, so I suspect that if he included the 80 AU V'ger, it would be on a page with nothing else to compare it with. Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:That v'Ger ship, did we ever see that design in the middle of the "cloud"??? Where does that picture come from???
That's actually the design from the film. We didn't get to see the thing from bow to stern until such a shot was created for the TMP Director's Cut.
I'd like to know where he came up with V'Ger's length of 98 km, though. The only reference I ever saw for the vessel's size was in Roddenberry's novelization. During the initial encounter, someone in the bridge crew (can't recall who exactly) says that V'Ger is twice the size of Manhattan Island. I grew up in New York City. Manhattan is nowhere near being 50 km long; it's much closer to 20 km.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wasn't there a line like it's such and such long and Uhura says - that could hold a crew of ten thousand and the good doctor wisely says or a crew of ten 1000 feet tall or something to that effect.
Yeah Michael - I meant V'ger-with-cloud.
How big was one of those Borg fractal trans-warp hubs?
ALSO - I wish they'd include Stargate Ships. Apophis's big ship would be HUGE! Even a normal Pyramid ship is big - I can't remember the Goa'uld word for it...
Andrew
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Woodside Kid: "That's actually the design from the film. We didn't get to see the thing from bow to stern until such a shot was created for the TMP Director's Cut."
Really? It can be seen in the DC? Thats one argument for my checking out this refit of a movie.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Oh, you really should watch the new TMP. It's unlike any other Star Trek. It has a very distinct epic "Space 2001" feeling about it. Which is nice.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Gotta agree: TMP was a snore untill the directors cut was made. His Star Wars fighters are a bit small though...you can place the 5'8" figure of him next to the Y-Wing (for example) and see that the fighters are mabye 10% too small. The Length of the Battlestar Galactica seem a bit small but there is an entire linked page of reasons why it makes sense. It's sjorter than Enterprise E but far more massive and much wider. This site really does make the Star Wars capital ships seem ridiculous in their size and ineffectivness: Look at the Super Star Destroyer and realize that for all the millions of tons of material and thousands of crew and officers that went into it, it can still be destroyed bt some kamakazie hit from the smallest rebel fighter. Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
So could the Galaxy class. Although I think the Jem 'Hadar, as opposed to the AAAAH-ing A-Wing pilot, knew what they were doing and how to do it.
That scene would've tripled its drama value had the A-Wing pilot gotten a critical hit, noticed he'd lost shields AND weapons and was outnumbered, and steered it into the SSD deliberately.
Whilst proclaiming the words of Harvey Keitel, naturally.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well Star Trek certainly gets the award for most spacecraft designs...
...I still dont like the Negh'var drawing...it doesnt look right...as if the black jutting from the bottom of the ship was something someone using MS Paint forgot to touchup or erase...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Wasn't there a line like it's such and such long and Uhura says - that could hold a crew of ten thousand and the good doctor wisely says or a crew of ten 1000 feet tall or something to that effect.
Removed in the director's cut, incidently, which is kind of too bad, as I sort of enjoyed it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: So could the Galaxy class. Although I think the Jem 'Hadar, as opposed to the AAAAH-ing A-Wing pilot,knew what they were doing and how to do it.
Actually it's not the same thing due to the mass diffrences of the Jemmie attacker (98 meters by 110 across and several hundred tons with a crew of up to 40) as opposed to a fighter smaller than a modern fighter plane. As you pointed out,the Jem'Hadar waited untill the Odyssey took down it's shields and aimed for the ship's warp core intentionally.
By scale comparison with the Executor it a GCS would have to be destroyed by a softball sized object for the comparisdon to be accurate. If you take the "small ships" and place them next to the executor you would'nt even be able to see an A-Wing on the screen.
Why does the Empire design all it's huge ships and stations to be vulnerable to small bands of relativly shortly armed fighters? Not too smart.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"Why does the Empire design all it's huge ships and stations to be vulnerable to small bands of relativly shortly armed fighters?"
Well, remember that the SSD had taken a pounding from the entire Rebel fleet before it was struck by Red Squad's resident kamikaze pilot, so its shields were already softened up considerably - at least enough to be easily penetrated by a lone out-of-control fighter, which (conveniently) rammed the bridge and did the ship in.
You could also make a case for the Mk I Death Star: it was designed to counter large, sluggish capital ships with its innumerable surface defenses, not a handful of nimble fighter craft (the rationale being that NO military strategist in his right mind would EVER send in three fighter squadrons against a mobile, MOON-SIZED battlefortress) that could exploit its one weakness - which wouldn't be public knowledge if those stupid droids hadn't gotten away.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Pretty big boner of them not to have sealed the tunnel that led straight to the second Death Star's reactor core when they knew the rebels were coming and that they knew the rebels destroyed the first station using the EXACT same tactics. Both times: Rebels steal plans. (The empire actually LET them steal ACCURATE plans the second time! DORKS!) Rebels send small bands of fighters to exploit a known weakness in the station's design (or lack of completion). If the empire had just changed the schematics that they LET be stolen to lead the fighters down one of those other branching tunnels and into a dead end then RTOJ would have led to the Rebel's destruction even if the Emperor was thrown down a open bottomless pit with no handrail. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Yeah, well, chalk it up to the old fart not being "all there" (and overconfident) when he handed the Bothans those blueprints. Posted by Captain39 (Member # 1001) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Wasn't there a line like it's such and such long and Uhura says - that could hold a crew of ten thousand and the good doctor wisely says or a crew of ten 1000 feet tall or something to that effect.
Andrew
Whipped out the old VHS. Uhura: It could hold a crew of ten's of thousands. McCoy: Or a crew of a thousand ten miles tall.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If thee's anything that should have been edited out it's McCoy's 70's disco look when he's first transported aboard. He look like a super aged version of John Travolta from dance fever. ((Shudder!)) Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
least it wasn't a 'fro....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Only because Uhura was'nt cast as a man. Otherwise it would have been Shaft at communications back then. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
...speakin' jive through the com, can you dig it?
[ May 08, 2003, 03:21 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I must admit - I have seen TMP (original version) so many times - but I was ENTHRALLED with the Director's Version. That alien-guy in blue on the starboard side of the bridge the K'Normian even gets a line!!
When I first saw the shot of V'Ger's actual ship I gave an 'audible' WOW! Cause I HAD seen it in the Art of Star Trek - and there it was... the electricity effects and everything. It's shape makes all those inside V'Ger landscape shot - makes them make sense! Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:Well, remember that the SSD had taken a pounding from the entire Rebel fleet before it was struck by Red Squad's resident kamikaze pilot, so its shields were already softened up considerably - at least enough to be easily penetrated by a lone out-of-control fighter, which (conveniently) rammed the bridge and did the ship in.
So the Empire goes to the time and trouble to build a miles-long starship and doesn't bother to put an emergency bridge somewhere in case (perish the thought) someone should actually TARGET the main command facility? Oy, gevalt!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If the empire had just changed the schematics that they LET be stolen to lead the fighters down one of those other branching tunnels and into a dead end then RTOJ would have led to the Rebel's destruction even if the Emperor was thrown down a open bottomless pit with no handrail.
the emperor finally had to pay for years of continued ignorance of OSHA regulations.. how many independant contractors would have been saved if handrails and dual language warning signs had been posed next to bottomless pits (or doors that lead to bridges that arent there)?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"So the Empire goes to the time and trouble to build a miles-long starship and doesn't bother to put an emergency bridge somewhere in case (perish the thought) someone should actually TARGET the main command facility? Oy, gevalt!"
Gee, might that have something to do with the Empire's rigid doctrines of building what were believed to be practically unassailable starships? Much like a certain Federation we all know and love, whose BRILLIANT engineers, in strokes of unparalleled genius, place TRANSPARENT ALUMINIUM-shielded bridges DIRECTLY ON TOP of THEIR mightiest ships, and tuck secondary BATTLE bridges away for all eternity deep inside them (because during combat, there is AMPLE opportunity for a command crew to vacate the main bridge, especially after a photon torpedo barrage).
The SSD just happened to spin out of control before anyone in the "emergency bridge" (surprise!) could react.
Save for your sarcasm for someone else, m'kay?
[ May 08, 2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Cartmaniac ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: If the empire had just changed the schematics that they LET be stolen to lead the fighters down one of those other branching tunnels and into a dead end then RTOJ would have led to the Rebel's destruction even if the Emperor was thrown down a open bottomless pit with no handrail.
the emperor finally had to pay for years of continued ignorance of OSHA regulations.. how many independant contractors would have been saved if handrails and dual language warning signs had been posed next to bottomless pits (or doors that lead to bridges that arent there)?
Not to mention automatic doors that close at 300 miles per hour (in Ep IV)!!
Cartmaniac : This is Flare! I can't keep my sarcasm to myself! It's in the handbook you know. ...and the "obvious target" of the bridge applies equally to those miles long Star Destroyers too y'know. The Empire is chock full of the *smart* guys that almost crashed two of those miles long STar Destroyers into each other in ESB as I recall... Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Not you, Jason.
Anyway, I think we can all agree that Exposed Command Center = Bad Thing, no?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartmaniac:
Anyway, I think we can all agree that Exposed Command Center = Bad Thing, no?
Well...not if you're the one attacking....!
The So'Na, Romulan, Reman, Dominion, Mon Calimari, Breen and Tholian ships all have bridges buried safely within their hulls, so I guess it's just the humans and Klingons that are foolish in the ship design area. One cerntalized Impulse engine seems a large target as well...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er, how in the world do you know where the bridges on those ships are?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I know where they're not: they're not at the center of a circular bullseye like on Fed ships or at the highest point on the dorsal side like on Imperial ships. The (often inaccurate, I know) specs in the ST:TM show the aproxamite locations of the bridges on the Dominion and So'Na ships.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think the Romulan bridge is pretty much front and centre (and maybe a little to the top).
The BoP had it right in the middle. The Battlecruiser had it right out front.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Klingons and Fed ships might as well place some neon piping around their bridges with a sign marked "shoot here".
...of course I'm sure that anyone with sensors could figure out a bridge's location pretty quickly.
I agree with you, Andrew that the Romulan bridge is somewhere in the warbird's "head" but it might be buried deep for safety reasons.
The D-7 is the worst idea in bridge design ever: why didint anyone just shoot hat skinny "neck" and be done with it?
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The D-7 is the worst idea in bridge design ever: why didint anyone just shoot hat skinny "neck" and be done with it?
Perhaps it's a Klingon thing.
"Brave, honourable warriors of the Empire do not cower in fear in the middle of our ships! We place ourselves at the front, in grave danger, so that we may gain much honour! Qapla!"
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I remember Gene's rationale for the bridge being at the top of the saucer being something like "when the shields fail, most contemporary weapons will be able to blast through the structural material well enough that it won't really matter if you bury the bridge deep inside the saucer"...
--Jonah
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Actually a 80 AU V'Ger would probably be on the same page as the Dyson Sphere. Of course the Dyson Sphere would be the size of this period.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
You know, it is only 8 in the director's cut. Or did someone already point that out? At any rate, I think counting an energy/gas cloud as a structure might be stretching things a bit.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well the cloud seem to do something when the Klingons got near it and when it enveloped Epsilon 9.
It's a wonder they never reused the Epsilon 9 model in TNG.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Because it was hideous and looked far too dated for even Kirk's time after we saw stations like Regula One and Spacedock. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
1.) I didn't say the cloud wasn't real! Just that it seems to me to be a different kind of thing than, say, an office building.
2.) Epsilon 9 was reused, albeit as a piece of modern art rather than a space station.
3.) I thought it looked just fine, and no more or less "futuristic" than any other Federation space station. It is a big antennae farm. That is what is was supposed to be.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
BY TNG standards I think it looked a bit "2001"-ish.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Well, obviously by TNG's time, something as big as Epsilon IX was no longer needed. It was obviously replaced by something more along the lines of Relay Station 47.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
*I* just meant - that the cloud must have had some significance - most probably to do with it's way of travelling FTL or what-ever.
When it got to 'home' it shed it's "cloak"
I guess they had the Remmler Array in TNG.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Didn't the novelization say that the visible cloud was due to the reaction of the energy field and intersellar hydrogen and/or dust at warp speed, and that it began to dissipate as V'Ger slowed upon approach to Earth?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
!?!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I second that
"!?!"
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Epsilon 9 appeared to be more than just a simple relay station, though.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
It could have been a 'hub' or some other sort of major center for trafficking messages, more than a mere 'relay station'. For example, you could say something like RS-47 was one of the 'spokes' that relayed data/messages directly to a larger stations or 'hub' like E-9 could be.
Also, wasn't its full designation the "Epsilon IX Monitoring Station" infer that it serves as more than just a communications relay, but it also serves as some sort of subspace telescope, with "sensor drones", capable of conducting long-range sensor scans and/or surveillance, as well.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Sort of what I was getting at, though I was thinking mostly that it's proximity to Klingon space suggested it had a few other uses than just moving comm traffic around.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: It could have been a 'hub' or some other sort of major center for trafficking messages, more than a mere 'relay station'. For example, you could say something like RS-47 was one of the 'spokes' that relayed data/messages directly to a larger stations or 'hub' like E-9 could be.
Also, wasn't its full designation the "Epsilon IX Monitoring Station" infer that it serves as more than just a communications relay, but it also serves as some sort of subspace telescope, with "sensor drones", capable of conducting long-range sensor scans and/or surveillance, as well.
Given it's proximity to Klingon space it's likely that "Monitoring Station" was it's primary function. Sort of like a huge spy satellite that specialises in subspace traffic. Indeed if I recall Mandell's Starcharts has Epsilon 9 being only one of 11 such stations that run right along the Klingon border, followed (or preceded) by another 11 "Delta Outposts".
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
quote:I remember Gene's rationale for the bridge being at the top of the saucer being something like "when the shields fail, most contemporary weapons will be able to blast through the structural material well enough that it won't really matter if you bury the bridge deep inside the saucer"...
That, of course, has been refuted since TWOK/TSFS/TUC (in particular), VOY/DS9, Generations, and Nemesis. If you're looking for design flaws, bridges are a good place to start.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Regarding V'ger's size on the site, I emailed the guy who made the size comparison charts, and discussed with him the size V'ger should be. I can't find the email in question (it might be at work), but in my discussion with him I pointed out that V'ger's shape was more like the plan in the Phase II book than what he has on his site, and that if some compares the Enterprise to the one feature it is most clearly shown against on V'ger (the "sand dollar" mushroom near the front), the size is considerably larger than what most people accept as cannon. I'll try to find the email I sent him plus the drawing I used to make my case.
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