On the locally-dubbed "Iceland"-class ship from "Enterprise":
There is an obvious design influence from the Lockheed Martin X-33 Venture Star spacecraft, first proposed as a replacement for the aging Space Shuttle. The original X-33 proof-of-concept vehicle was 20 meters long and wide, with Aerospike high-performance engines. If the POC had returned positive test results, NASA would have gone ahead with a scaled-up planform of 40 meters, also with the Aerospike propulsion system. Although in the real-world, the X-33 program was terminated, it would seem from the opening credits of "Enterprise" that the X-33 development cycle continued in the Trek universe.
The Iceland-class appeared as part of an Earth Defense Fleet which clearly predated NX-01's introduction. Its planform can be interpreted as presenting a later refinement of the X-33 planform, modernized and retasked for a new mission.
I've played around a little with hypothetical timelines based on this evolution.
2007 - Venture Star spacecraft is introduced. It is land-launched, with capabilities roughly akin to the Space Shuttle. (40 meters l & w), Aerospike Engines
2043 - Venture Star 2 (On-orbit assembly and deployment) (60 meters l & w), Mini-Mag Orion Engines
2063 - Zephram Cochrane invents the CDP (warp drive).
2067 - The Conestoga, first colony ship refitted with a CDP drive, leaves for Terra Nova.
2090 - Venture Star 3 (On-orbit assembly and deployment) (80 meters l & w) Warp 1 Engines
2119 - The Iceland-class is launched, developed for planetary defense (on-orbit assembly and deployment) (120 meters l & w) Warp 2 Engines
2135 - The Intrepid-class is launched as Solar Explorers (on-orbit assembly and deployment) Warp 3.9 Engines
2151 - The NX-01 is launched under command of Jonathan Archer.
There will be Iceland schematics soon.
Any thoughts on how this might fit into canon chronologies?
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
What ship is this? The one we only see the back of in the intro? I think your chrono fits just fine, although I'd place the venture star 1 around 2010-2015
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Proteus: What ship is this? The one we only see the back of in the intro? I think your chrono fits just fine, although I'd place the venture star 1 around 2010-2015
No, what your thinking of is the locally dubbed "Lunar Orbiter".
The locally dubbed "Iceland Class" is the ship from "The Expanse" and "Twilight" that has a pointed saucer reminiscent of the Norway Class seen in the movie "First Contact" and as a schematic on the wall of a Species 8472 Earth Simulation of Starfleet Command bar in the Voyager episode "In the Flesh"
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The flying wing. I'm thinking this would more appropriately be called the Iceland-type, as Iceland would be the name of the ship. It's class would probably be N-Something
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Would you place the Intrepid and the Iceland before or after the Warp 2 ships from "First Flight"? I'd say after...
So maybe NV and NW class? The warp 2 ships... NU class?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Was it only Warp Two they were trying to get to in "First Flight?!" Must have forgotten that. Ugh. I hate the idea that in. . . how far in the past was that ep? Ten years? Five? However long it was, they built two separate types of ship while planning a third.
The next question is, how many of each type of ship have we seen? One of each in "The Expanse," one of each in "Twilight." There might only be the Intrepid and the Iceland out there. A culture that has only reached Warp 2 recently isn't going to build huge fleets of ships, especially when they're demonstrably slower than their mentors the Vulcans' ships.
Especially if they never had a ship to spare to pop over to Terra Nova and see what happened there. But then that episode gets more crap the more you think of it - the Vulcans could have checked it out for them. . .
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Come to think of it... why the hell *didn't* the Vulcans check it out for them? Even the Novans thought of that. People's lives were at stake... I'm sure the Vulcans would've chipped in.
I'm guessing there are only 10 or so classes of Star Fleet ships before the NX... 10 tops. I'm counting the Lunar Orbiter from the credits as one. It's obviously a warp ship.
Plus you've got at least a couple of civvie ships.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
This also calls into question again how old Starfleet really is. "First Flight" offered a minimum date but gave no real hint about how long the organization had been in service.
My personal theory? That the big Warp Five Project� was supposed to develop an antimatter-powered warp drive. Earlier ships were all powered by fusion, and some could break the Warp Two Barrier� -- but the antimatter reactor offered greater potential over the long run.
The only potential contradiction there would be the execrable "Friendship One" -- but my explanation there is that the probe itself wasn't actually powered by antimatter, it just had the scientific research that Earth had done up to that point.
(I know; lots of people disagree with that, and TPTB aren't likely to use that explanation. I still think it's the best one possible...)
At any rate, that would make the Iceland a fusion-powered ship. But either way, I think that that ship type should have a max of Warp 2. (That was about as fast as the "Twilight" convoy was traveling, anyway...)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The flying wing. I'm thinking this would more appropriately be called the Iceland-type, as Iceland would be the name of the ship. It's class would probably be N-Something"
Well, considering the name "Iceland" was simply invented by someone around here, anyway, I don't think there's any reason to get particularly technical about it.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I know... I was just being picky Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
Mim should have a first look at orthographics of the Iceland later tonight or tomorrow.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In "The Expanse", there was Intrepid plus two of the Icelands. I'm willing to bet that Starfleet really doesn't have all that many ships. I mean, who knows how long they'd been building NX-02, and they still had fourteen months to go on what was most likely an accelerated completion schedule.
Regarding the only other Starleet ships we've seen, I think it's likely they were capable of warp three, tops. They were looking for STABLE warp two flight only a decade before, and early in the first season they mentioned that they could upgrade a gigantic Y-class freighter to a warp three engine in the immediate future. I don't think that widespread antimatter-powered warp flight is all that inconceivable for this era. Regardless, merely by the physics alone we know that no Starfleet ship looks capable of humping that much deuterium for any real endurance...
Mark
Shelley, my... Precious...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
GAHH!!! I hate it when these unofficial names stick. I always felt the same way about people calling the Curry-type/Raging Queen the "Shelley-class" too...damn you MARRRRRRRRK!!!!!
P.S. Regarding the age of Starfleet: According to the series bible, it is "less than 20 years old in 2151..." and a Berman/Braga interview stated that Archer had been a SF officer for 15 years. So it was founded sometime between 2132 and 2136.
[ January 13, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
I would have to agree with the idea that the Iceland is a fusion-powered vessel. The squat, barrel-shaped structure at the rear center of the ship is not like any M/ARA we've seen. I propose that it's one of two things.
1. A warp field stabilizer, in which case the fusion power source is completely internal
2. An outboard fusion power system, in which case all the warp mechanics are handled inside the nacelles. This would be safer, as the reactor could be easily jettisoned in case of emergency.
Right now, the Iceland is looking like a four-deck ship, design clearly hints at military usage (ultra-smooth lines with no protuberances, slick planes for reflecting oblique particles and beams in lieu of polarized hull plating).
More and detailed views later.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, there are apparently enough ships to draw potential crew away from Cargo service, per "Horizon", and for Star Fleet to have a number of standing regs regarding service on their ships per "Broken Bow".
I'm gonna assume that SF has about 50 ships, but maybe only 5 types of ship, excluding civvie designs.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The "Iceland" doesnt need to be solely Fusion powered: they could (and likely) have been using VUlcan or other new alien designs for their short forrays out of the solar system. I imagine the top item on Earth's list of wanted trading materials would be the tech for better warp drives. No matter how "greatful" the humans were to the Viulcans, they'd try to get around the Vulcan's holding them back.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
"Using Vulcan or other new alien designs"? What show have YOU been watching? In this era, no one's interested in sharing their technology...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Oh, I dont know... didint they mention having a colony out on Alpha Centauri? Hard to believe they only have commerce with the Vulcans.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: GAHH!!! I hate it when these unofficial names stick. I always felt the same way about people calling the Curry-type/Raging Queen the "Shelley-class" too...damn you MARRRRRRRRK!!!!!
Hey, without UF this is all I've got left. Viva la Shelley class, you bastards!
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, yes, of course, there were two Icelands in "The Expanse." Nice image, BTW.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
One was actually the Greenland. People are always confusing those two...
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
No, it was the Finland, people are always confusing those two....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Can't wait for the episode: "The Helskini Syndrome" a precursor to TOS's "The Immunity Syndrome".
Actually those schematics of the Iceland - I didn't realise how close it looked to the "Lunar Orbiter".
Andrew
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And tonight, 'The Hel-skin-i Syndrome', right here on Cinemax."
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
Hopefully, Mim will post a size comparison chart of the lineage from X-33 to Babba Yagga.
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
Could anyone post a size comparison chart if I email it to them? MMoM seems to be unavailable at the moment.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Sure, go ahead. [email protected] Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sorry, I didn't get a chance to check my mail yesterday.
Irishman, there was no file attached to your message. Feel free to send it again.
-MMoM Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Success! Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Nice chart -- but looking at the varied shapes, I think that the Iceland might actually have a shape closer to that you've got assigned to the Venture Star 2, with a pointier nose section. Just IMO.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
FWIW, I'm now definitely doing Iceland class, including the good ship Finland, as part of the Guide. I doubt the aerodynamic hull form really signifies true atmospheric flight capabilities - but it could tell of the lineage. OTOH, "Regeneration" proves that warp-capable vessels can also be landing-capable in this era. Or perhaps the Icelands are Mars-based, benefiting from aerodynamics but not having to fight all that gravity?
Since I'm doing the Guide with the assumption that Spaceflight Chronology still largely holds true, I imagine that Earth in the late 21st century had dozens upon dozens of clumsy conical sublight warships (and fought the Kzinti in those) in addition to hundreds of nonmilitary ships jury-rigged with warp engines. UE Starfleet (founded when SFC says, in 2089 or so, writers' guides be damned) just protected the Sol system initially, lacking the infrastructure to go farther out. Civilians of course went off the deep end, there being no stopping them. Ships as such probably aren't expensive - the support infrastructure is.
A true interstellar-capable warfleet would only emerge in the 22nd century, and the Icelands would be a relatively late addition - for one, their warp engines look more modern than those of the Intrepid type... These ships might not go into deep space, but they'd certainly have some extrasolar duties. If they were built to meet a specific military need, say, convoy escort for major trade routes, then there'd be none to spare for trips to the likes of Terra Nova.
Expect an update early next week. I'm all for that four-deck scaling, fusion powerplant, and externally mounted warp stabilizer stuff. In fact, the self-made Michigan class already fits the Iceland description save for minor details. IMHO, NX-01 should be the first antimatter-propelled manned starship in Earth service, but the other two known Starfleet workhorses could already benefit from the advanced drives, Iceland more than Intrepid. Warp 3 sounds good for both, but the smaller and newer [i]Icelands[/] do it with less power and more style.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
Timo, do you use Illustrator?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:GAHH!!! I hate it when these unofficial names stick. I always felt the same way about people calling the Curry-type/Raging Queen the "Shelley-class" too...damn you MARRRRRRRRK!!!!!
Since the actual designers of the ships & the writers of the scripts didn't even care enough to give them class names, individual names, or registry numbers (and probably never will), then I suppose it's up to us to do that. At least until the next Encyclopedia says otherwise (and who's counting on that to happen...)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And on top of that, it's really kind of ludicrous that we keep seeing the prototypes mentioned of all these ships -- variety is better! We've already got the Centaur class (which is boring, IMO), we don't need the Curry class and the Elkins class and the ENT-Intrepid class...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I always thought the Centaur should be a Chimera-class, personally. The name sure fits. . . But every time I start thinking about other chimeric names for members of the class - Griffin, Manticore, Medusa etc. - I remember how much I hate all those ship lists that have Cheyenne-class ships named solely after Native American tribes!
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
But the Chimera is a 2340s Escort! Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat:
quote:GAHH!!! I hate it when these unofficial names stick. I always felt the same way about people calling the Curry-type/Raging Queen the "Shelley-class" too...damn you MARRRRRRRRK!!!!!
Since the actual designers of the ships & the writers of the scripts didn't even care enough to give them class names, individual names, or registry numbers (and probably never will), then I suppose it's up to us to do that. At least until the next Encyclopedia says otherwise (and who's counting on that to happen...)
It's only a matter of time before we see the "Abbadon Class". Always online, and able to make copies of itself.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: But the Chimera is a 2340s Escort!
So? The Centaur is a mix of two 2280's ship classes.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: But the Chimera is a 2340s Escort!
If that is true - then the Centaur fits nicely.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
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