Finally, it is time for the first real advance in Frank Herbert lore onto the screen, the first miniseries covered the events like David Lynch's film (with different angles and more stough, granted), but now we go into unknown territory, moviewise.
Premiere March 16th, I don't have the Sci-Fi Channel but a friend should tape it. He will tape it, or there shall be the rules of Kanly onto him. ;
I just caught the trailer on IMDB, it was fairly confusing, an extreme lot of scenes being paved through quickly, but I have no gripes. Alice "Borgmama" Krige plays mother Jessica now, I never like cast-switches but this time it might be beneficial.
$$$$$$ $$$$$$ (extreme longshot that anyone will care, but it is, after all, a matter of principle)
Duncan Idaho is back from the dead, like in the book. Now, in the first book, he was last spotted by Paul Atreides, fighting off a number of elite Sardaukar in a Fremen safehouse, in extreme close quarters melee combat, with a massive bleeding wound to his head.
David Lynch altered it in his movie, to a piercing gunshot in the Arrakeen palace, although to the head so there's consistency there. The Dune-Miniseries had Duncan being blown to smithereens by a Sardaukar attackship launching multiple missiles at a small cave opening, where our favorite Swordmaster happened to be standing, plain dumbfounded at the sight of approaching warheads.
So, the "Huh?" in my title goes partly to the question how his corpse could've been sufficiently recovered and sent to the Tleilaxy Clonemasters who then produces a viable new specimen (and taller too, different actor from the first "Dune").
The other part of the "Huh?" goes to the current choice of displaying the now-Ghola (reanimated clone) that is Duncan Idaho.
See, in Frank Herbert's Dune universe, the one and only distinctive characteristic of a Ghola is it's opaque steel eyeglobes, apparently the only bodypart on the Tleilaxu Clone menu not possible to reproduce biologically. The rest of him is natural and "fully-functional" (as Duncan experiences in "God Emperor of Dune" ).
Trouble is, that one important eye detail seem to be missed entirely in this "sequel", at least if IMDB's press-photos of Edward Atterton is correct.
So, if anyone wish to lecture me on some missing points re: gholas or this production, I'm all ears. Any other Dune-comments you've thought about that didn't deserve an entire thread, well hey!
Another point; have they entirely omitted "stillsuits" or are they in there, in any of the miniseries?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yeah it is slightly annoying that Duncan wasn't killed in melee combat (as befitting a sword master) in the "Frank Herbert's Dune", I suppose you could say that his body, or rather the majority of it was thrown clear by the explosion and lay in the sand until the Sardaukar came and picked it up.
What I found even more annoying however was the fact that they killed of Thufir in FHD, I was quite looking forward to seeing the good Mentat and his troops being pounded by artillery while hiding in the cliffs.
I could go on about all the things that I missed that were omitted or changed but that wouldn't be really fair since FHD was far more faithful to the story than Lynch's film was, although I think Lynch managed to portray the characters far more successfully.
I sometimes wonder how Lynch would have cast Fenring had he been included in the film, given that he was rather insubstantial in the mini-series.
As for the eyes, I seam to recall that they are an addition made to Gholas by the Telaxiu as a matter of policy, since they claim that their artificial eyes are much better than real ones. I'm pretty sure that they can grow "natural" eyes for the Gholas since later Duncan clones are wholly complete (at Leto's insistence) and that it was only the Hayat clone who was so altered.
I also seam to recall that there was some suggestion that the eyes were a means by which the Tielaxu could control the gholas (or anyone else so equipped), the Fremen superstition about them seams to reflect this.
I think you'll find that Duncan's eyes may be added digitally in post production, since I read somewhere that this is how they are achieving the spice addicted blue eyes this time around. Apparently the UV contacts weren't very successful last time round. On the other hand what I read could be bullshit and they simply omitted the silver eyes so save on exposition time.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I'm only about halfway through the novel "Children of Dune," but the lack of contacts for the Duncan Idaho actor *is* worrying.
OTOH, there's also Whoopi Goldberg's shades from some of the "Nemesis" promo photos, so there's still hope.
As for the stillsuits, that was one of the main problems of Stilgar, that they were forgetting about the stillsuits as there was more water available on the planet. They shouldn't completely omit them, of course.
I was a bit confused by the way the miniseries showed Idaho's death, too -- but I'm not sure if he was literally blown to smithereens -- I think he'd started to run at the last second and wasn't hit directly.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
There were defiantly stillsuits in the first series, they just weren't as prominent (ie expensive) as the suits in the Lynch film. As a matter of fact the portrayal of the Fremen in FHD was far more faithful than it was in the movie, with the desert camouflage, the hoods and the cloaks.
Lynch's still suits seamed quite ludicrous by comparison, I mean black rubber in the desert? Nutters. If they aren't killed by heat exhaustion then they'll be picked off by some Harkonnen patrol that spotted them 20 miles away!
As for the explosion that killed the Sword master, I doubt that the missiles were actually aimed at him, more likely they were meant to destroy the Ornithopter.
Which reminds me of something else that know one has ever gotten quite right (except maybe the computer games); the Ornithopters! I always pictured them as slender looking craft with dragonfly style wings, instead both the movie and the series has depicted them as rather square boxy affairs with tiny wings that barely move, if at all.
P.S. MinutiaeMan : Don't be too disappointed with the Dune series when you finish CoD, it isn't as good as the original to be sure but I promise that things will get interesting again with "God Emperor" and "Heretics"
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
You had me scared that I had missed the beginning of the series when I saw this post. I'll have to remember the date now.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I was never quite sure of the reasoning behind turning Duncan Idaho's corpse into a Universal Ghola. . .
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ (for MinutiaeMan, this is straight out of Books II, III and IV)
Well, as I interpret it the bad guys saw any aquisition of a good guy as a leverage, especially if they can turn it into their advantage, so the first ghola was just a trojan horse, a sleeper agent. Then, as Leto II got in the play, the Tleilaxu hadn't gotten rid of their Idaho-files and materials and were forever charged with providing Leto with gholas.
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Which reminds me of something else that know one has ever gotten quite right (except maybe the computer games); the Ornithopters! I always pictured them as slender looking craft with dragonfly style wings, instead both the movie and the series has depicted them as rather square boxy affairs with tiny wings that barely move, if at all.
To answer your question, Reverend, in regards to the Ornithopters in FHD, I provide you with this quote from the "Secrets of Frank Herbert's Dune" behind-the-scenes book.
quote: The Thopter is an unusal aircraft. Short for Ornithopter, Frank Herbert defined it as an aircraft capable of flight by flapping its wings like a bird.
In describing the version seen in the mini-series, Tim McHugh is more detailed in his description of what it is and isn't, and what it can and can't do on screen.
"The Thopter is almost like a giant housefly. We went around and around on the propulsion system. I believe in the book that they actually flap their wings. We did a few tests on that which unfortunately tended to look rather silly, so we modified the design a little bit. What we came up with is something kind of like a vertical take off and landing craft. There's a large spinning porpulsion unit iin each wing. The two wings tilt up and down independently and reorient themselves in flight as if they are a steering mechanism. So you do see the wings essentially moving, but they do not flap like a bird."
Taken from "The Secrets of Frank Herbert's Dune," page 135. Published by iBooks, 2000.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
It is the ugliest transport I've seen in any Sci-Fi venture, and that includes Dennis Hopper's spacetruck, in "SpaceTruckers"...
The CGI-'thopters from the game "Dune 2000" looked great, not silly. They should've used those, or just looked at an episode of LEXX. :-)
Overall, the only CGI I really liked in the first Miniseries were the Shai Hulud, the rest felt like 1996' LEXX and early Babs-5, kind of behind. No doubt it'll be better this time around.
Oh, the "weirding way" scenes were kind of 'out-there', but what exactly did we see there? What does utilizing the "weirding way" mean in the books, exactly? It's been so long.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: To answer your question, Reverend, in regards to the Ornithopters in FHD, I provide you with this quote from the "Secrets of Frank Herbert's Dune" behind-the-scenes book.
I know what they looked like in FHD and why, what I'm saying is that they could have made more of an effort to show a truly exotic piece of technology, given that it is one of the signature pieces of Dune, just as important as showing sandworms and navigators. After all, 10,000+ years is a long time for mechanical expertise to advance to such a point, especially given the abhorrence at the time to anything remotely computerised.
quote: I was never quite sure of the reasoning behind turning Duncan Idaho's corpse into a Universal Ghola. . .
You mean the first time or the other five zillon resurrections?
$$$$$
The first time was just to distract and weaken Paul, the others were apparently a part of Leto's breeding program. After the scattering I'm not sure why the BG kept bringing him back or why the Tlilaxu kept all those past life memories in that last one, but it has been a while since I've read Chapterhouse.
Here's a question, was it ever explained just how Gholas are made? Are the original corpses actually regenerated or are they cloned from samples? I think Herbert changed his mind about this after CoD, I seam to recall the earlier descriptions leaning towards the reanimated corpse while that later ones implied that they were clones after the fact. Indeed the younger Duncan Ghola in the later books is evidence of this as is the mention that the Tlilaxu had several on the go at once so they could replace the current one quickly.
It might be also worth noting that there was a clear distinction made in the last book between Duncan being a ghola and Teg (one of my favourate characters btw, next to Stilgar) being a clone made from a living sample, perhaps the term ghola is just a term applied to clone made from dead tissue as opposed to clones made from living tissue.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I've got one, also a ChildrenOfDune spoiler $$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
The first Duncan Ghola had been prepped to start killing as he heard the sentence "she's gone", or words to that effect, when in Paul's service.
How the hell could the Tleilaxu know A: that Chani would die from the affair, and B: that Paul would use those specific words??? The Tleilaxu aren't psychic, and from what I remember they had nothing physically to do with Chani's death, it wasn't induced labor failure or poison, or I've missed something big.
Oh, and I'll bet Herbert came up with the word Ghola from the word Ghoul (it sounds so close) and that would, if true, definitely signify a connection to some wretched being reanimated from death, as opposed to fresh biscuits.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Well the conspiricy did involve the guild and the navigators are psychic to some extent.
BTW has anyone seen the visuals for the stoneburner explosion in one the the latest trailers? I've often wondered how that would look, I think they did a fairly convincing job although I'm not entirely clear on what a stoneburner is suppoed to do specifically...aside from blind people of course. It just seams rather small for a nuke.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The main difference is that gholas have the same personality and access to all the memories of their previous life. The Vorta are gholas, for instance.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
That works for me.
About the stoneburner, I'm fairly certain it's a variant of the "mass driver" concept, like the Centarui ones in Babylon 5. Industrial dischargers for manipulating landscapes or mountain ridges or what have you.
Obviously the amount of energy is high, making for the good lightshow. I imagined a giant, wide beam of white light from orbit, kind of like the Orbital Cannon from "Akira".
What the prequel-books by Brian "Dubuya" Herbert changed in that regard was to make stoneburners man-portable. Some angry guy picks one up and discharges it in a cave, disintegrating himself and everything else in a two mile radius. Bah! I say it's shipmounted.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Lets have a look at the book...
"Where Otheym's house had been there stood now a pillar of fire, a blinding jet roaring at the heavens..."
That sounds like a devise to me, not an orbital weapon. It is also described as an atomic, mass drivers like the one's in B5 just accelerate large objects such as asteroids to a high velocity, literally throwing them at a target. The effect is concussive not nuclear and the stoneburner is described as having a peculiar kind radiation, it also runs on fuel and can burrow down into the planet's crust if required.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The main difference is that gholas have the same personality and access to all the memories of their previous life. The Vorta are gholas, for instance.
The Gholas had to have their past life memories "induced" as did the Teg clone, I don't think that the memories are the distinguishing factor since they are supposedly genetic, which is where the BG's inner voices come from and how Alia came to be possessed by the Baron. So if the memories are genetic then both Ghola and clone will possess them.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"The main difference is that gholas have the same personality and access to all the memories of their previous life."
I didn't say that they had them automatically, simply that they were there, and while in the Herbertverse memories are available to the select few with superpowers, gholas are a seperate case, and ghola-memory is different than what Paul or the Reverend Mothers can do.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Yes, Duncan needed the trauma to trigger his memories.
If I could choose, I'd rather do it the Teg way, I think. Hmm. *Farnsworthspeak* Oh yes...
I am so interested in hearing more about the Honored Matres. I hope Frank Herbert left more manuscripts and instructions for "Dune VII" than he did for the three sequels, dude that shit is whacked! We've had a nice flight, don't fuck up the landing, Brian Herbert.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: I didn't say that they had them automatically, simply that they were there, and while in the Herbertverse memories are available to the select few with superpowers, gholas are a seperate case, and ghola-memory is different than what Paul or the Reverend Mothers can do.
As I understand it, it's all apart of the same mechanisum. That the Gholas and Clones can access the memories with their previous life with such reletive ease just means that those memories are much closer to the "surface" than the ancestral memories. For the Bene Gesserit and their super beings it still takes an emotional delema or a supreamely stressful experiance to unlock their genetic memories, the only difference with the Gholas own trial is the level of severity. I'm sure if a Ghola was created of a woman suitible to be a Bene Gesserit and fed her the water of life then, assuming she survived, I'm sure that it would unlock all of her female ancestors memories including those of her original life.
With Paul and his offspring it's a little differant because they were especially bread to be able to recover both male and female ancestral memories, but the catylist remains the same.
quote: If I could choose, I'd rather do it the Teg way, I think. Hmm. *Farnsworthspeak* Oh yes...
Well sure he got a good show but he never really got anywhere with her, did he? Mind you I can't see them filming that scene in any upcomming Mini-series, not without tweeking Tegs age somewhat.
quote: I am so interested in hearing more about the Honored Matres. I hope Frank Herbert left more manuscripts and instructions for "Dune VII" than he did for the three sequels, dude that shit is whacked! We've had a nice flight, don't fuck up the landing, Brian Herbert.
Apparantly they found a complete outline for book VII, unfortunatly Brian and Kevin seam to have mined alot of that for use in their two prequal trilogies to a point where it's pretty obvious just what the Honored Matres were running from and what Paul and Leto were so afraid of that it drove Paul into a Universe wide slaughter and Leto into his Golden Path.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I sincerely doubt these alleged notes exist as anything other than a marketing tool.
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