This one reminded me very much of a Farscape episode - the CGI FX, the diverse alien races. . . The plumber, I forget her name, even reminded me of whatserface, Francesca something? Ben Browder's wife, anyway, who played several such roles in that show. My wife thought it was Charlotte Coleman (from Four Weddings and a Funeral) but she didn't realise she'd died a couple of years ago. Actress's name in this episode though was Beccy Armory or something like that, doesn't ring a bell. As soon as she opened that duct, however, I thought of Ensign Eiger from ST:FC. . .
So, yeah. Aliens! The doctor nearly pulls one. Zoe Wanamaker as the last human, who Rose refers to as Michael Jackson! Was that Warwick Davies as the blue one?
"How about this? We copy the seeker drones from Minority Report, but give them four legs/tentacles instead!"
I'm not up on Who mythology, so has Gallifrey really been destroyed, and is the Doctor really the last of the TimeLords?
I've also cought myself using the adjective "Fantastic!" a lot more. . .
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
From what I've heard, the destruction of Gallifrey happened in the Paul McGann audio adventures. I think it invovled Romana returning from E-space, becoming Lord (Lady?) High President, becoming evil, and... the planet gets exploded. For some reason. I don't really know the details.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
As I understand it, the destruction of Gallifrey IS a consequence (or precedent) of the "Time War" that the Doctor fought in, mentioned last episode, and which will be brought to light over the course of the season. The Daleks, one of the few other races in the Doctor Who canon who use time travel to a significant extent, are rumoured to be part of all this.
But after the war, he's basically it. There may be other Gallifreyan survivors out there, but as far as Time Lords are known, he's the last one.
And this was a fantastic episode, which I enjoyed far more than the first one. It demonstrates the high budget quality of this show's potential. It also has great scripting, while (like Farscape) keeping things grounded in the present day. Next we're heading to 1860s Wales for some zombie action, and we'll have had past, present and future.
And the iPod gag was great.
As for the TARDIS - some people have been complaining about the look and use of odd bits of garbage as controls (the bicycle pump, desk bell, a stroller wheel to set the time, etc.). It think this also ties in with the lack of a home planet you can pop in at occasionally to get spare parts (which I'm sure he's done in SOME incarnations), to say nothing of the link to the Eye of Harmony that powered all TARDISes. There's probably a gerbil in an exercise wheel somewhere too). Since the TARDIS (so far) seems to have only the one console room, it may indeed be all that's left, and he's been maintaining it with stuff he's found in a scrapyard in Totter's Lane, or something. Mind you, Rose is going to have to get dressed in period costume SOMEWHERE...
Mark
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Um... couldn't he just travel back in time to Gallifrey before it was destroyed?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Nope. In Doctor Who, time travel itself is rarely a plot point in a given story - it is simply the method the heroes use to reach the next story. Whenever they went to Gallifrey, it was always in chronological terms, sequentially with the progression of the series. I had actually thought that Gallifrey itself somehow was out of step with the rest of the continuum, but that probably isn't the case...
There was one episode, following the death of one of the Doctor's companions, that another companion demanded they use the TARDIS to save him before the ship he was on blew up. I don't remember the exact reasons they didn't do it, but the Doctor got pretty angry at the suggestion. In another story, the Doctor was sent to interfere with history and destroy the entire Dalek race - and he didn't.
Causality is rarely an issue in the Doctor Who universe, and I guess this is why - they simply don't use time travel directly to fix things. One of the beauties of the concept, I guess. In this episode alone, the Doctor could have used the TARDIS to save everyone sans major paradoxes a la "Bill and Ted", but they just don't do that.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
A thought has occured to me: the Doctor claims to be "the last of the Time Lords", "the only survivor". Presumably, he means that everyone on Gallifrey went boom with the planet. But are we meant to take his assertion literally, or is he just effectively alone? In other words, should we assume that he has some reason to believe that the Master, the Rani, K'anpo/Cho-je, the Monk (he could have eventually fixed his TARDIS), etc. are all gone as well?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
One thing I forgot to mention is this Universal Translator field the TARDIS supposedly generates. . . Has that ever been mentioned before?
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: One thing I forgot to mention is this Universal Translator field the TARDIS supposedly generates. . . Has that ever been mentioned before?
I don't remember anything about a translation field, but the TARDIS has been shown to have abilities and be able to affect people before. Didn't it bring the two companions from the TV movie back to life? Added to that (and my memory might be completely off here) didn't Hartnell's doctor have to get back to the TARDIS in order to regenerate? Am I right in remembering something about the TARDIS helping the process along?
So a translation field isn't such a stretch if it can bring people back to life - certainly makes more sense than Trek's universal translator anyway.
Also, excellent thought on the TARDIS perhaps being diminished from what it was due to the lack of repairs/power from Gallifrey. I was struck on watching the first two Ecclestone episodes that whenever the TARDIS was in flight (for want of a better term) it seemed to have a lot more shaking and rumbling than previous incarnations - compare, for instance, with McGann's TARDIS (or any of the previous ones), which seemed quite sedate when cruising along - no shaking for the most part, no rumbling and no needing to hold on to something while it was in flight. The new TARDIS seems to be a bit more of a boneshaker, needing a lot more work to keep it running. Indications of damage from the war, perhaps?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I recall there being something about the tardis that facilitates Regeneration (recovery more than anything else I think), but we've seen the Doctor regenerate outside the tardis, so it's obviously not essential.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
Certainly not essential in the general run of things, no, but I recall something about Hartnell's doctor being so old and physically weak that he needed the TARDIS to get the process going - basically he was too weak to regenerate on his own having pushed himself too far fighting the Cybermen in "The Tenth Planet".
Makes sense in a way - regeneration has got to put a drain on the body - so a Time Lord that is too weak might not be able to start the process without some external force giving a nudge in the right direction.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Mark: Thanks for the reply; I haven't seen any Docter Who for about a decade, so I don't really remember much!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The translation thingy was brought up way back in "Masque of Mandrgora", when the Doc matter-of-factly asks Sarah-Jane if she's ever wondered why everyone speaks English. The producers on Stargate use the same excuse, but have yet to tell anyone.
There are various programs streaming online on BBC Radio 2 and BBC Wales that delve a little into the TARDIS' state. Basically, it's the Doctor's car that he has not taken to the dealership in centuries, explaining why there's all sorts of crud everywhere...
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If I remember correctly, Sarah was being mind-controlled somehow. When she asked the Doctor why everyone speaks English, he explained that the TARDIS was doing it. But he later (after she was back to normal), he explained that, when she asked that, he realized her mind had been tampered with, because she's not supposed to notice it.
I guess we can assume it's just another part of the TARDIS that's starting to malfunction, and that's why Rose noticed it right off.
As for the regeneration, Troughton said, right after ceasing to be Hartnell, that it was a function of the TARDIS. However, he was in the full depths of Post-Regenration Flakiness, so it doesn't have to be taken seriously. But there's nothing to prove that regeneration isn't technologically-facilitated, either. In fact, if it were a purely biological reaction to near-death, how did Romana force a regeneration right after the Key to Time series? Gallifreyan Suppuku?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The EU suggests that some people CAN force a regeneration if need be. The novelization of "The Twin Dilemma", Colin Baker's first story, tells that typically Gallifreyans regenerate themselves mostly for the hell of it, to pass the centruies on their terms rather than waiting for old age to trigger it. This is supported in at least one episode ("The Invasion of Time", I think), where one Time Lord nonchalantly asks another if he's due for a regeneration.
Anyway, in the novelization it suggests that one can force a regeneration, but that it has limitation. The story goes that once upon a time, a Time Lord happened to regenerate into such a beautiful body, that it was good for your social stature just to be in his general vicinity. Then one day, a freak accident caused him to regenerate into an utterly plain body. He forced himself to regenerate again in hopes of getting back some of his lost beauty, but he oveloaded his system and came out a twisted crone of a man. Trying again, he ended up an oozing, disgusting blob, and upon his final attempt the resulting monstrosity was ordered destroyed by the Council.
Non-canon, but just as fun a speculation as any other.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"This is supported in at least one episode ('The Invasion of Time', I think), where one Time Lord nonchalantly asks another if he's due for a regeneration."
Huh. I always took that as a bit of a joke. Kind of like asking someone "shouldn't you be dead by now?".
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Timelordian bitchiness? Like asking "have you lost weight?" when it's plain you haven't?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Romana's apparent ability to try out several forms also begs explanation. Unless the Doctor can do it but doesn't because he generally seems quite happy with his regeneration (Colin Baker aside, but he was even more post-regeneration-loopy than normal there). And yes, I know one of the novels attempts an explanation for it.
quote:Originally posted by TSN: If I remember correctly, Sarah was being mind-controlled somehow.
You're really going to have to narrow the episode down a bit more than that. You might as well say "Jon Pertwee's Doctor has just said 'dear chap' to someone", or "Peri was bitching about something", or "Davison looked a bit ineffective and wet".
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: The EU suggests that some people CAN force a regeneration if need be. The novelization of "The Twin Dilemma", Colin Baker's first story, tells that typically Gallifreyans regenerate themselves mostly for the hell of it, to pass the centruies on their terms rather than waiting for old age to trigger it.
Hmmm, I would have thought the Time Lords would have been a little more careful about their regenerations, especially if they have a finite amount of the things - surely they wouldn't waste a regeneration if they had a perfectly serviceable body as it is? Okay I take the point about not waiting for old age to trigger it but if you've only got a certain number of extra lives you don't waste them on vanity or boredom...or maybe that's just me.
As for Romana, I always assumed she didn't actually regenerate into those bodies on her "fashion show", but that she was somehow able to project a possible future regeneration, looking into several possible futures and trying the bodies on like one would try on a coat, without actually committing to one and undergoing the regeneration process. The Doctor did that in "Logopolis", didn't he? Projected some kind of version of himself between his 3rd and 4th regenerations? And there's always the Valeyard...just a thought anyway. All this discussion has really put me in the mood to raid my old Who video collection (and start picking some up on DVD) and enjoy some shaky sets and frankly worrying wobbling of walls.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: You're really going to have to narrow the episode down a bit more than that. You might as well say "Jon Pertwee's Doctor has just said 'dear chap' to someone", or "Peri was bitching about something", or "Davison looked a bit ineffective and wet".
Or "Susan fell over and twisted her ankle", or "Bonnie Langford committed a crime against humanity just by existing."
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
So back to this Time War...
1. I've asked this question before but what EXACTLY is a Timelord and how does it differ from an ordinary Gallifreyan?
2. Can't timelords from different points in time interact at a third point in time - i.e. it being the normal result in both's timeline. That assumes though that going forward in time is the 'norm' and in something like Dr. Who - I'm sure there's a place where it's not the norm.
3. Do did McGann's Doctor die as a result of the Time War - hmmm and does this mean some how we might see a "two doctors" with a guest star by Paul McGann? I wish they bloody did a series with him. I loved his beautiful TARDIS insides.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
1. Gallifreyans live in a very stratified, regimented culture. Not every Gallifreyan is a Time Lord - you have to go through lots of schooling for it. Some say it's only after this that you are granted your twelve regenerations. Others think it's inherent to the physiology, depending on whether you believe in the whole looming thing.
2. Douglas Adams, who script edited the original series for a while, declared that meeting your past or future self is impossible, because of the extreme embarassment it would cause. This is why the Doctors only really meet each other under peculiar circumstances.
3. We don't know. I think we'll learn over the course of the season who the enemy in this Time War was (most think it's the Daleks, who'll be the subect of the sixth episode and the two-part finale).
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"You're really going to have to narrow the episode down a bit more than that."
Well, as Mark said, it was "Masque of Mandragora".
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
One theory is that Gallifrey actually exists at a point far in the future. Time Lords only actually travel to the past of their "present", and cannot affect the actual history of Gallifrey directly due to clever Time Lord tech protecting it. Or something.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Doctor Who has contradicted itself numerous times over its original run. For teh most part, continuity WITHIN a given story is okay; most stuff that stretches between two or three is generally fine, but outside of that, you're on your own.
Mark
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Doctor Who has contradicted itself numerous times over its original run. For teh most part, continuity WITHIN a given story is okay; most stuff that stretches between two or three is generally fine, but outside of that, you're on your own.
Mark
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And you can say that again!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Doctor Who has contradicted itself numerous times over its original run. For teh most part, continuity WITHIN a given story is okay; most stuff that stretches between two or three is generally fine, but outside of that, you're on your own.
Mark
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
A White Hole?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Best demonstrated in that Davison story where the Brigadier meets himself.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Of course, if a time-traveller can't change his own history, the Doctor couldn't have destroyed the Daleks in "Genesis of the Daleks" even if he'd tried. Because, of course, many bits of his own history at that point were already Dalek-related. But, then, his actions seem to have changed Dalek history, anyway, suggesting that some of his previous encounters with them should have happened differently, if at all. So, really, it doesn't make a great deal of sense. But perhaps that's to be expected here and there after 20-odd years.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Especially when "continuity" was never really as big a thing back then as it is now.
(And if we're getting into Dalek history, there's also the fact that the Doctor seems to have not heard of them in "The Mutants", but almost all suceeding episodes indicate that that would be almost impossible. Like someone today who had never heard of the Nazis. So, yeah, crazy history.)
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
There's a line in one of the novels where someone points out that the whole of Dalek history is in danger of collapsing under the weight of all the pardoxes. The Doctor says that he's quite proud of that...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It would have to be possible for the Doctor to alter his past-
Everytime The Doctor teams up with a prior incarnation of himself, he'd have to forget the experience (referring to past incarnations- the most recent version would remember, as his future would not be affected by the experience, while the prior versions would all know that they survive several more incarnations, thus altering their own future by knowing they wont croak when the rubber monster o' the week attacks).
In addition to the other examples pointed out of course.
OTOH, I'm certain Dr. Who will eventually fall into the quagmire of Alternate Universes to explain away some of the contradictions.
Mabye he'll team up with the Sliders gang and SG1. Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
I say that the Dr. was really the White Guardian all along without realizing it. After his last regeneration he bacame the White Guardian and realized that he created Gallifrey, the TimeLords and Time itself. Now there's a story.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not a good one, but yes, it's technically a story.
Really, it's not so bad, it's just that there's no where to go after it: it would be anice way to finally end the series though.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: I say that the Dr. was really the White Guardian all along without realizing it.
Ah, but THEN he'd have to live down the Colin-esque fashion faux-pas of wearing a freaking BIRD on your head as part of your hair.
Mark
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Everytime The Doctor teams up with a prior incarnation of himself, he'd have to forget the experience (referring to past incarnations- the most recent version would remember, as his future would not be affected by the experience, while the prior versions would all know that they survive several more incarnations, thus altering their own future by knowing they wont croak when the rubber monster o' the week attacks)."
Well, not exactly. He knows he won't be permanently dead (so, no vaporization or anything like that), but he never knows when he'll be hurt badly enough to be forced to regenerate.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Jon Pertwee seemed to know what Tom Baker looked like, even though he never met him on screen. Although "The Five Doctors" is pretty much all over the place anyway, so I wouldn't put a huge amount of faith in anything that goes on there.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Jon Pertwee seemed to know what Tom Baker looked like, even though he never met him on screen. Although "The Five Doctors" is pretty much all over the place anyway, so I wouldn't put a huge amount of faith in anything that goes on there.
Did he know that? From what I remember of "The Five Doctors", when Pertwee's Doctor met up with Sarah Jane she made some comment about him actually being *him*. She says something along the lines like "You became all..." and then points to her teeth and her curly hair. At this point Pertwee finishes the sentence with "All teeth and curls?" so it's possible he doesn't know what his next regeneration will look like, just that it will involve teeth and curls because of the clues from his old companion.
Of course it's also possible that since all the doctors were essentially the same mind (just in different bodies) that some of his later regeneration's memories were starting to "leak" across the boundaries between regenerations.
On a final note about "The Five Doctors", I have to say I don't like the newer version with the remastered special effects...loses some of the charm.
FD
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
i've never seen that version. When did they start updating effects on Dr. Who?
I dont think they've ever been shown here in the States.
The real question is: could the Third Doctor actually slip up and die (thus changing the timeline) if he got cocky after seeing his future selves and thinking he'd be certain to survive several more incarnations?
If his own timeline is immutable, mabye some of the previous Doctor's courage was just self-assured bluster then?
If I knew I'd survive to a healthy old age, I'd be a cocky(er) fuck today. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
One of the novels did that. The 8th Doctor bumped into the 3rd, and then time changed somehow and the 3rd Doctor ended up dying (albiet in a regenerative way). While regenerating the walls of the Tardis started to bleed in DRAMATIC FASHION.
This infected the Doctor with something called the "paradox virus" or some malarky. The Evil Guy theorised that the timeline would try and recover and that the Doctor's next few regenerations would be largely the same, but then by his 7th and 8th things would go wonky. And then somehow Ace died and then undied and McGann went funny and more malarky happened. And then stuff went.
Only some of the shows have had updated effects. Their on the DVDs, and it's been fairly random. For each DVD, the DR Who Resoration Society goes through and does what they can. In the case of some of the really old ones for which only film and not video exists, they've used complex science to clean up the images so they look brand new, rather than the murky mess they've become. For a few others they've also put in some new effects.
For the 5 Doctors, the changes involved altering the Scary Black Triangle into a transparent wobbly thingie, changing the bit at the end so that Tom Baker ends up back on the barge rather than in a random alleyway, and er, some other stuff.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I am laughing my balls off at the notion of the TARDIS' walls bleeding. Was Stephen King writing that novel? And here I though Trek had some bad ideas pass through the novels...
I can see the need to update some SFX- particularly the Autons and the first appearance of the Sontarians (as their heads deflated like the ballons they were, once they died).
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
If I knew I'd survive to a healthy old age, I'd be a cocky(er) fuck today.
Is that even POSSIBLE!?!?!?!?! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In that "math on a chalkboard" kinda way that anything is possible, yes.
Really, I'm a humble guy that is just great at everything. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"From what I remember of 'The Five Doctors', when Pertwee's Doctor met up with Sarah Jane she made some comment about him actually being *him*. She says something along the lines like 'You became all...' and then points to her teeth and her curly hair. At this point Pertwee finishes the sentence with 'All teeth and curls?' so it's possible he doesn't know what his next regeneration will look like, just that it will involve teeth and curls because of the clues from his old companion."
While that's possible, it doesn't seem very likely he could have come up with that description from Sarah's vague hand-waving. More likely, the third and fourth Doctors met at some point bewteen the things we saw on TV.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)