During the BSG Miniseries, there�s a scene where, if you weren�t familiar with the concept of the show, you realize that things have gotten really fucking bad. A flight of Vipers from the Galactica prepares to engage a Cylon patrol, when all of their instruments go haywire. Out of power, the Vipers drift into each other, and as the CAG tries to figure out whats going on, the Cylons fire missiles and toast every single Viper.
There�s a similar scene in this episode - except, the reverse. This time, the Galactica is able to disable a massive Cylon attack force, and as the Viper pilots � led by Starbuck and Apollo � realize that they�re about to play �bobbing for apples� with 30mm cannons and drifting Cylons, every pilot looks cheerful and excited.
Which is a big jump from the start of the episode. To me, the feel of the episode felt a bit wrong coming on the tail of �Final Cut.� I would have preferred it if the episodes switched places � the crew felt upbeat in that episode, and at the end of this episode. But the beginning and middle of this episode, everyone was downbeat, angry, and half a second away from slugging their shipmates.
BTW - what�s up with Lee & Dualla? Hello Lee, you�re an officer, she�s not! Bad bad, no no! Of course, I suppose, those kinds of relationships aren�t looked harshly towards on this ship �
Once again the preview does a good job of concealing what the episode is actually about. The writers have really nailed the multiple-story plotlines down. They flow well, and, this might be me, but are these episodes longer than 45 minutes?, because they feel like it.
So, our A Story revolves around the Cylon virus, and Adama�s decision on how to confront it: namely, trusting Sharon Mk II. He�s a hard ass about it, even pulling a weapon on her, then dragging her back to her cell without so much as a thank you. As he later explains to President Roslin, he found common ground: if Galactica would be destroyed, so would she.
� did anyone see Tricia Helfer in this episode? I don�t remember her being around.
I�d like to believe that the human-model Cylons have been so programmed that its possible for them to buck their programming, and in Sharon�s case, rebel against her direct creators: the Cylons. This is a theory, yes, but reinforced by Sharon Mk 1�s suicide attempt last season. Of course, none of her actions could be viewed as completely � altruistic? She�s got a certain self-preservation motive, not only for herself but for her child. Also, all of her actions on Kobol could be seen as an attempt to gain the trust of Commander Adama, and make her therefore untrustworthy.
On the other hand, one wonders how much the Cylons are actually interested in seeing Sharon�s baby born. I mean, we don�t know the true nature of Baltar�s personal version of hell, I mean, Six, but she�s always indicated that the Cylons have a vested interested in the first child of both species (because, face it, its fair to call the Cylons a �species�). But that massive Cylon battlefleet seemed to indicate, �We. Want. To. Kill. You. All. Don�t you understand this? Fools!�
Of course it could all just be a test, I suppose �
The B Story picks up with Kat�s fighter from �Final Cut.� Remember her fighter? Let me refresh: Kat takes stimulants. Kat takes too many stimulants. Kat crashes much-needed Viper Mark II onto Galactica�s landing deck. Kat, in the process of doing that, totals the fighter. There is no Allstate to buy Galactica a new Viper Mark II.
Chief Tyrol caresses this scarred and damaged Viper with intercut scenes of he and Sharon Mk 1 in some intimate embraces. His hands move across a starfighter as they do across a near-perfect copy of a human female � it�s his Scotty moment, y�know? He�s married to his ships. But he can�t escape the verdict and he slaps a sticker onto the cracked canopy: �SCRAP.�
Later, during a confrontation with Apollo, Tyrol realizes the CAG is going easy on him and gets frustrated � maybe the problem is people aren�t pushing hard enough to get things done. He�s got a brilliant idea: I�ll build my own Viper!�
At first, no one thinks it can be done, but by the end of the episode everyone�s pitching in and what we have is this scrappy looking thing held together by nothing more than bubblegum, spit, and elmer�s glue. Starbuck - who volunteered as test pilot - looks incredibly terrified in the launch tube right before the untested plane is launched into space. Thanks to a suggestion by Helo - which gets him in the good graces of his crewmates - the new Viper is almost invisible to rader, and there�s a cute scene between Starbuck and Apollo. Christ Captain � Duala or Kara, no orgies for you, plus, c�mon man think of poor Billy.
So, the flight test goes well and Galactica has a new Viper, nicknamed �Blackbird.� There�s a touching naming ceremony, and, yes, I did think Laura was going to crack the champagne bottle over the fuselage � the other characters� reactions were humerous: �NO! Don�t waste alkie-hall!�
The C-Storyline intertwines with both of the above. Tensions aboard ship are high � few folks will talk to Helo because of his relationship with the Cylon, which doesn�t do much for Starbuck�s temperment. Pilots don�t want to play cards anymore because the cards themselves are so cracked and worn they can recognize the �Ace of Spades� from the various folds and tears. Tyrol and Helo attack each other, Starbuck and Racetrack don�t exactly get along well either.
Once again, an excellent episode. As I mentioned, the feel felt odd. I think this episode and �Final Cut� should�ve been switched in production order, as the darker feel at the start of this episode would�ve tied in a bit better with the end of �Home Pt. II�, and the upbeat ending led better into �Final Cut.� Also, I felt it a bit ridiculous that Helo is only now getting around to introducing himself to the other members of the flight squadron, and that only now we�re getting to see people�s reactions to him as a �Cylon sympathizer� they probably consider him.
All in all, little nits �
Cally, who was sentenced to a month in the brig for the execution of Sharon Mk 1, is released at the start of this episode. It�s good to have her back.
Was that Socinus?
Hot Dog�s actually got stuff to do in this episode. He seems like much less of a hard-ass snarky fuck than he did in �Acts of Contrition.� Yes?
The preview for next week�s episode labeled it as the show�s season finale. Liars! It�s only the season hiatus break! Relax, folks, the show�s back in January of next year. (Newer Battlestars look frikkin� awesome!)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This episode was great. Maybe my favorite this season.
Socinus is dead and buried on Kobol, no?
Re Cylons and their plan, I think we can take what they say amongst themselves at face value, meaning they want Sharon and her baby alive. Yet she seems to think they feel just the opposite. Why?
And replicant Cylons can connect to optic fibre by sticking it up their arm? This scene was way neato, but, again, a blood/optic interface is something that should probably show up in a detailed medical examination. And the neck restraint they had her in; oh man. They are not messing around.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Snay: BTW - what�s up with Lee & Dualla? Hello Lee, you�re an officer, she�s not! Bad bad, no no! Of course, I suppose, those kinds of relationships aren�t looked harshly towards on this ship �
Except for Boomer Mk. 1 and Tyrol, remember? Though there's arguments that could go both ways, considering they're essentially all that remains of Human society, and despite the underlying agenda that Simon The Cylon said a few weeks back, there's still truth in the fact that they all need to start having babies.
Sol: Considering the immense reserve of superhuman strength that the Human-model Cylons have been able to demonstrate on various occasions, I have no problems believing that all of their biological "components" might look identical to Human biology but also have dual purposes and hidden capabilities. Yeah, it's a sci-fi conceit, but I feel that goes with the territory.
All in all, I'm really interested in how they'll make use of the Blackbird in future tactical situations. And even though the Cylons might easily get wind of the ship and possibly its capabilities (Having one of their sleeper agents pose as a reporter was a brilliant idea, because it gives them extra access to the Galactica and confidential information that they otherwise wouldn't have!), I wonder if the Cylons will be able to come up with some kind of countermeasure for this new "stealth fighter".
And next week? It's jarring to see Ensign Ro all grown up with long hair and a senior fleet commission!
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Except for Boomer Mk. 1 and Tyrol, remember?
Yes, which is why I said: "Of course, I suppose, those kinds of relationships aren�t looked harshly towards on this ship."
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well we know that Replicant-Cylon models can transmit their memories over a considerable distance, so that's a "special feature" right there. My money is on some kind of bio-mechanical doohicky. Which is concievable since humans are already capable of translating light pattern into electical impulses (eyes anyone?), it's just a matter of fabricating a more utilitarian organ hidden within the soft tissue. Whatever it was that Sharon had in her wrist that could interface with a fiber optic cable, it must be very well hidden or disguised, otherwise it'd be a dead givaway during a routine medical exam.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Snay: Except that the senior officers were always against it after the Cylons attacked. They had only been lenient before because the Galactica was an old and out-of-action ship. Remember that Adama and Tigh came down on Boomer and Tyrol pretty hard and told them to break it up, even before that ep with the grand pseudo-inquisition. It was only after the bombs went off on Galactica that Tyrol started suspecting Boomer might be up to something and actually called it off.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Which is, I would imagine, all the more reason for Lee to act his rank.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The Laura, surely, fun nicknames aside.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Personally, I really liked the episode overall. I'd start to lose it too if I finally came to the realization that there is *nothing* to look forward to.
Now, I do have a few major nit to pick about the Blackbird, namely the timeframe of the build, how it was built, and its "stealth" characteristics. I am a structural design engineer, and I work on real life fighter jets, so I'm a bit familiar with the subject. I also have some knowledge of how stealth really works, and all I'll say here is that just making the skin from composite won't help very much, if any.
I will admit however that they may have an "out" on the whole stealth bit. My knowledge is limited to radar and visual stealth, and Galactica doesn't employ radar. They mentioned something called "dredas" or something like that. Functionally, it looks like radar, but it may be something completely different.
As for how they built the Blackbird, it just looked like a disaster waiting to happen. A welded steel frame like the one shown is nowhere near stiff enough to take the punishment from maneuvers. It would crumple in an instant. Also, you'll never see welds in an aircraft's structure because they crack too easily. The composite skin will take a lot of the loads from the structure and help stiffen the airframe, but not enough to hold it together.
You know, I could go on for a *long* time here, but I think I'll stop now. I really did very much enjoy this episode, and I don't want my fairly minor sticking points to ruin that.
quote:So, the flight test goes well and Galactica has a new Viper, nicknamed �Blackbird.� There�s a touching naming ceremony, and, yes, I did think Laura was going to crack the champagne bottle over the fuselage � the other characters� reactions were humerous: �NO! Don�t waste alkie-hall!�
Cracking a bottle of champagne over a new build is a naval tradition for ships. If anyone ever cracked a bottle over the nose of an aircraft, they'd never be let near another aircraft again because it would seriously damage it. *That's* why they had that reaction, not because they wanted to save the drink.
B.J.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
First, may I please humbly request that we restrain the scope of our discussion to events up to and including only the present episode. I may be alone in this, but I don't watch the "Next week on BSG or commercials" and even more freakishly close my eyes during the "bum-badda-da-dum" part of the opening because I'm avoiding spoilers. If you feel you must discuss things that have not happened on the show yet, perhaps a new thread, or at least note any spoilers so I can skip your post. Yes, I am weird this way.
So there were things in this episode that I liked. I'm very glad to see some of the emotional impact of their situation effecting the crew's morale. And where the structural integrity of the Chief's solution may be in question, I felt it seemed an honest and even moving way to do that. He's an engineer, and it's an engineer's solution. I felt I could relate. But that's probably because I'm not a structural design engineer working on fighter jets (!!)
Yes, so that was good. But as some may have anticipated, I also had some problems with the rest of the episode. Yes, I am going to complain about networks again, so if you are offended by such niggling, skip ahead...
So it has been overtly stated that the Galactica has no networks. Everything is manual controls and lots of folks with octagonal paper. And as much as a pain in the ass as that is, it did save their collective butts from the fate of much of the rest of the fleet. So, er... Now they have a virus that has infected their computer and is dangerously close to getting into their mainframe and really wreaking havoc. So does the Galactica have networks or not? Because even if we ignore the implausibility of how the Cylon virus actually made its way into the hardwired network we saw Mr. Gaeta so dilligently improvise (and so abruptly terminate before the Cylons bypassed the final firewall), then how is the virus propogating itself such that it is endangering a broad range of ships systems, let alone "the mainframe"? I mean did I miss the part where they said it only had control of, say, that one computer that controls whether or not control panels blow up, bridge power, and the oxygen content of the firing range? Because although a serious pain in the ass, that would seem like a comparatively isolated problem.
Which isn't even getting into the reasons why the rest of the fleet has not been similarly affected by contact with Cylons.
It's my gripe, but it's what I know. I'm also with Sol System on Boomer's magic fiber-optic interconnect. Obviously there are a lot of conceits technologically for a show like this, but technical inconsistencies like this really start straining my suspension of disbelief. It's distracting. If you are going to come out and say than human model Cylons are indistinguishable from humans given a full medical exam, I want to know how a doctor doesn't see an optical port in Boomer's arm that apparently lets her talk to even antiquated computers like Galactica's. If you're going to say that there are no networks on the ship, then don't have a virus spreading and multiplying itself across their network. Or come up with some means of explaining this apparent violations. Even a single line of dialog might be enough to fix it for me.
I realize it sounds like quibbling, and I probably shouldn't complain. Honestly, this show does so many things right. And I'm not at all saying that I think the show is rubbish on account of these things. Quite the opposite. It is because I like it so much that I feel that the writers/creators do need to take these details into account if we are going to continue to be enthusiastic about their make-believe universe. We are your demographic. We are nerds. It's what we do.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think what appears to have happened is that the virus was present from the beginning across the network, and the tiers in Gaeta's firewall weren't separating individual computers from each other, but were just a TV way to visually show the virus's progress and ramp up the tension. So when he cut the connection, it was still in all of those systems.
Keep in mind that I've failed one-third of all the computer science courses I have ever taken, and cannot get my video drivers to work (a thread about which I should probably start), so, you know.
(Also, not that it really makes things better, but I have decided I like the idea that Sharon was trying to thread that cable right up into a major nerve. Maybe everyone already assumed this? It seems extreme!)
((And on another note, for me, this show is all about Laura Roslin. Just saying.))
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"A welded steel frame like the one shown is nowhere near stiff enough to take the punishment from maneuvers. It would crumple in an instant."
These are people that have mastered artificial gravity and FTL travel. I'm sure they can counteract G-forces too.
(Even if their network security protocols are somewhat lacking.)
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: These are people that have mastered artificial gravity and FTL travel. I'm sure they can counteract G-forces too.
But rather the point of the show is to have a science fiction setting with people using technology in such a setting without using that explanation every week. Oh, sure, the hastily assembled, bubble-gum and bailing wire, hobby-project-on-the-side starfighter has inertial dampers!
None of us can definitively say anything like that, but the point of the show is not to have to say things like that.
Did anybody else notice the Master At Arms in the corridor?
I liked the episode as a follow up to "Final Cut." You have a point in the fact that on the surface, it doesn't make much sense, given everyone's respective feelings.
But, I look at it this way. At the beginning, I was dissapointed by the ending of "Final Cut," as it was far too "rah rah hoorah let's go team" for my tastes, use of the original theme aside. But upon revelation that Lucy Lawless was a Cylon, it puts a beautiful twist on everything. Whether RDM was doing this intentionally or not, I have no idea, but I think the ending of "Final Cut" was a way of saying how intoxicating rah rah patriotism can be, but ultimately how empty. The ending of "Phoenix" on the other hand, was a demonstration of what real hope is like and where it comes from. It's about people; people coming together, working together, accepting each other, and making something together, whether it's a future, a home, or a kit-plane.
There's nothing elaborate about it, nothing over the top and pompous. Instead, just quiet and understated. People doing their jobs and occasionally taking a rare moment to acknowledge it.
The ending of "Phoenix" was far more deeply powerful than "Final Cut" and the two are wonderfully paired.
But that's me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"They mentioned something called 'dredas' or something like that."
"Dradis". Or, perhaps, "DRADIS". Which was finally spelled out on screen in this episode, for the first time that I've noticed.
"So when he cut the connection, it was still in all of those systems."
Except that, if those systems can't communicate with each other, what you've really got is a whole bunch of separate viruses all doing their own things in different systems. And, if the systems aren't networked, how did Cylon Sharon manage to access all of them (and their individual viruses) from just one wire?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
The same way Gaeta was able to wipe/reformat all of the systems from one station.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I thought Sharon didn't actually do anything about the Galactica's virus, she just hit the Cylon battlegroup with a virus of her own. It was the memory wipe - which they'd already established as the only course of action they were capable of doing to remove the infection - that took of care of the threat.
When Sharon read the code on the priontout, I thought for a moment it was going to trigger something in her, take her over, the Langford visual hack, if you know what I mean.
So despite events in "Water" and "Litmus," ordnance security remains a less than high priority chez Galactica. Loads of weapons in the shooting range (granted looked to be in cages), yet more dinky little boxes of explosive rounds lying around, yet no-one in attendance at the range. This despite pilots trying to shoot themselves, maintenance workers blowing prisoners away, and so forth. I guess those are trade-offs for being a warship during a war. . .
Also, the explosive rounds slot into the front of those little grenade-launchers on the pistols. I'd have expected them to go in from the rear of the launcher, like an M203. Must have some sort of solid propellant to avoid having to remove a 'shoe' of some kind that launches the round (like sabot tank rounds). And how do you make an explosive round fire? Is it just that if you fire an ordinary pistol round and the launcher contains a mini-grenade, it fires too?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Lee,
I noticed that Starbuck seemed to fiddle with the side of her pistol after loading the explosive round and before firing it. Maybe there's a switch which changes what barrel the trigger activates?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
1. The computer believed the room to be overpressurized, and indeed we see that air pressure was greater in the corridor after the erroneous depressurization of the room. What's impressive, though, is that given the readout on the gauges it's clear that the system managed to selectively remove the oxygen alone, resulting in the overall pressure loss.
Still, though, that wasn't great on a scientific level. People would notice a pressure loss like that, be it from a feeling in the jaw-ear region to someone with a bad knee (a la Starbuck) feeling a change in the joints. They should've simply had the computer remove the oxygen and replace it with nitrogen or something.
2. Someone said earlier that the Cylon virus did not breach the final firewall when Gaeta had set up that network that time. That's not actually correct. Freeze frame when Gaeta's reaching under the desk to unplug the network . . . the final firewall had gone red. That split-second of breach paid off in the next episode and this one as well.
3. My impression was always that the explosive rounds were loaded, chambered, and fired just like normal ones. If so, then the lower barrel is like a mini-grenade-launcher, one which could also fire a normal round in an emergency.
Whether Lee loaded an explosive round or a full-fledged mini-grenade is another matter. Whatever was used to blast the window seemed quite a bit more powerful than the usual explosive round, though that could have related to pressure differential.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: (Tyrol's) an engineer, and it's an engineer's solution.
NO NO NO!!!
Okay, Tyrol's no more an engineer than I am a mechanic. Believe me, you do not want me anywhere near a rivet gun. I've got the proof of that sitting next to me (a nastily banged-up sheet metal project). Simply put, Tyrol's a wrench monkey, nothing more.
B.J.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Tyrol's job description might be "wrench monkey", but the boy's obviously got qualifications beyond handling a wrench. I wonder how much education he has -- I've read about senior enlisted men in the Navy having advanced degrees in subjects such as nuclear engineering, and it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrol did in fact have operational knowledge of the types of craft whose servicing he was expected to keep up on. After all, Tyrol's job is more along the lines of managing his deckcrew to keep the ship's up and running - under normal circumstances, he probably wouldn't be getting his hands dirty as much as he is with limited resources.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I would say it's more hands-on experience than anything. A lot of the mechanics I work with are very knowledgeable, and a smart engineer knows when to ask them for advice. However, they wouldn't know where to start if asked to analyze the complex loads behind a design to see if it's good (and optimal) or not. Tyrol also had his work simplified by using off-the-shelf parts.
In my mind, I'm equating it more to a car mechanic building a hot rod in his garage than an engineer designing a new car. Sure, both will run, but unless you've got a really sharp mind behind the design, the hot rod's going to be in the shop for repairs a lot more often.
B.J.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"When Sharon read the code on the priontout, I thought for a moment it was going to trigger something in her, take her over, the Langford visual hack, if you know what I mean."
I wondered the same thing.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Nevermind on my #3 above . . . I just went back and checked "Kobol's Last Gleaming, Pt. I" and the ep where Galactica was boarded and noticed that the lower barrel makes way more of a mess, be it in the form of Helo's shoulder-blasting shot or elsewhere.
That's what I get for not paying attention. (Says the guy who noticed the last firewall breach. )
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I think in most sci-fi shows engineer == maintenance technician/wrench monkey. Because in the future all mechanically inclined individuals will also be gifted designers and engineers (and vice-versa). (*cough*, not to mention Tom Paris, *cough*) But you're right. I should have said "mechanic." The Delta Fly--excuse me, Laura, is a hotrod.
Guardian 2K: My point was that the show is being inconsistent in its application of networks and viruses. A major plot point established in the 4-hour Miniseries series was that Galactica's antiquated, non-networked, all manual systems (that made Lee Adama land hands-on) are precisely what saved it from the fate of the rest of the fleet. And in subsequent attacks, one might assume the Cylons have continued to try using this weapon to no effect. So in one episode for a little over ten minutes Galactica sets up an ad-hoc network which is magically almost instantly infiltrated (somehow). And in this episode we have that same virus propogating itself across a bunch of intertied computer systems (which I would term a network) thereby placing the ship in dire jeopardy. So, yeah. Networks.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't think explosive rounds were ever mentioned prior to the Cylon incursion. Which was quite a dark episode (illumination-wise) so I didn't notice if you saw the explosive rounds being loaded into Team Apollo's pistols. But it was plain from the size that they weren't intended for the magazines of semi-auto pistols - too long.
Although I myself have referred to the under-barrel as a grenade launcher, it's probably something we need to stop doing as they're not mini-(micro-?)grenades that are being fired. I don't know what the definition of a grenade is, but I'd imagine it's something that gets lobbed, whereas these are definitely powered projectiles (and we've seen a proper grenade-launcher anyway, on Kobol). Something akin to a GyroJet rocket pistol round, with a solid propellant accelerant stage.
(also - tracer rounds, in space? No air to ignite phosporus. . .)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
When Gaeta talked about connecting various computers together, did he mention environmental controls at all? Because just about every glitch that's taken place in the various episodes was environmental in nature - Galactica didn't start veering wildly off course, inadvertently making FTL jumps or sprouting cannon and taking postshots at the fleet.
So there has to be something about the environmental systems that make them susceptible. I think of all the ship-wide computer networks that would be necessary, a full control of life support (lights, gravity, opening & closing sections, air etc) would be most important.
Because of the threat of virus takeover, keeping access to navigational and fire-control computers to C&C only makes sense. Think of all the times in Star Trek that a ship got taken over from Auxiliary Control (I'm sure Tim will be able to tell us EXACTLY how many). Mind you, several times they had to go off crawling through Jeffries Tubes just to access environmental controls. . .
So, when the Cylon boarding party came onboard, what did they try to do? Seize the life support controls. It stands to reason that a virus attack would do the same thing. Trying to gain engine control or weapons control would be too easy to stop; better to take over something that affects the whole ship and uits occupants.
Notes:
1. Yes, I know we saw the ship lose attitude control after the initial virus attack. 2. Yes, I know that another attack party tried to reach engineering or the magazines or something. Why put all your eggs in one basket?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
1. Valley of Darkness and Flight of the Phoenix both imply/state the malfunctions are the result of the results of the virus implantated during the computer networking. Why couldn't the Cylon boarding party also have implanted viruses?
2. Maybe the explosive rounds are Gyrojets instead of mini-grenades:
I still have no problem with they way their computers are depicted. Despite some people's objections, I think they're a lot more like ships currently in use in that regard.
And now for something completely different. When the Vipers were gathering in front of the Cylon formation, I counted about 4 or 6 Mk VII Vipers. I thought that Apollo's was the only surviving Mk VII? Or am I mistaken?
B.J.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
B.J.,
I'm pretty sure we've seen other Mark VIIs at some point, I was under the impression the ship still had two or three of them.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
As early as the end of the miniseries, we see more than a couple VIIs landing beforet he jump. Plus, there's nothing to say they couldn't have salvaged or repaired others along the way, or picked up stragglers. With the Pegasus arc inevitable, they're doubtless going to have more fighters on hand later - and I'm willing to bet that they don't have any Mk IIs.
Mark
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Presumeably, a more likely explanation is that there were a few Mark VIIs out of service for various maintenance problems. Starbuck does tell Adama that there are plenty of pilots, but no fighters -- that can be explained by reasoning that she's referring to operational ships.
Of course, that doesn't really add up either, because Lee's Mark VII is still aboard. Which brings up another question -- why did Lee LEAVE in a Mark II instead of the Mark VII he arrived in?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I assume you're talking about when Lee arrives at the beginning of the mini? I thought that he was piloting a Mk II for the ceremony, and was told to escort Roslyn's ship back in that same Mk II. So when everything hit the fan, his Mk VII wasn't taken out like the others.
But this does bring up another instance that's been bugging me. When Lee does the Death Star II tunnel run on that Cylon base, he's in a Mk II. So where's his Mk VII this time?
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The modifications hadn't been completed yet? Or maybe he wanted to boost the rookies' confidence by flying in the same model of ship as them. Or maybe the IIs were better suited to the ground-attack mission, while the VIIs would do better in the straight fighter-combat scenario that was the diversion?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
BJ -
Yeah, didn't make sense to me that he wouldn't leave in the same fighter he arrived in. What's the logic, y'know?
Lee -
We saw Lee in his Mark VII fighting the Cylons in the miniseries and in "33." Modifications had been finished. Maybe it was out for service? Or, maybe, it wouldn't fit under the fake cargo hull the Vipers IIs were hiding under.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The damage control computer, which could reasonably be expected to control the air and the lights I guess, was one of the systems Gaeta mentioned using when all this started.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Think of all the times in Star Trek that a ship got taken over from Auxiliary Control (I'm sure Tim will be able to tell us EXACTLY how many)."
Me? Why the hell would I know that?
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Because you're the Nixinator.
Posted by RLF (Member # 1396) on :
I've been meaning to check, because someone I know insists on this, but there may have been a couple of Mark VIIs tagging along with Roslin's ships before they hooked up with Galactica. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a copy of the miniseries.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Ahhh, that's a thought. Tomorrow, a friend is returning me my copy of the miniseries, plus I'm buying the box set, so I'll have two copies to peruse.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: Did anybody else notice the Master At Arms in the corridor?
Yes, I recognized her. Though I couldn't remember what her position was called... something that vaguely reminded me of He-man and the Masters of the Universe, sure...
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: � did anyone see Tricia Helfer in this episode? I don�t remember her being around.
Didn't see her either, and I was wondering if any of you had heard an explanation for her absence...
quote: Once again, an excellent episode. As I mentioned, the feel felt odd. I think this episode and �Final Cut� should�ve been switched in production order, as the darker feel at the start of this episode would�ve tied in a bit better with the end of �Home Pt. II�, and the upbeat ending led better into �Final Cut.�
I get the impression that maybe originally they were intended to air in the reverse order. I mean, everyone was wondering what it was with Boomer 2's hand bleeding in "Final Cut", right? It may be an unexpected sequel of the events in "Flight of the Phoenix". And remember when people were wondering "Huh? 'The fleet'? Aren't the Cylons on Caprica?"... well, I'd say now we know what fleet they meant...
OTOH, if that was the Viper that Kat crashed in "Final Cut", well... you sure about the number?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"I mean, everyone was wondering what it was with Boomer 2's hand bleeding in 'Final Cut', right?"
I don't think so. For one thing, it wasn't her hand that was bleeding. This was fairly important to the plot.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Well, did we see where the blood in her hand came from? I took it as, well, if she's suddenly losing lots of blood, it's dangerous, never mind where the bleeding is taking place...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Her hand wasn't bleeding, she had blood on her hand. From, y'know, down there. You're nerds using the internet, you know where I mean.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Hence the doctor telling her "we're trying to save your baby."
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote: I've been meaning to check, because someone I know insists on this, but there may have been a couple of Mark VIIs tagging along with Roslin's ships before they hooked up with Galactica. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a copy of the miniseries.
Yes! After Boomer jumps to Roslin's fleet with the Tillium freighter in tow, she's talking to Colonial One's pilot. If you watch the scene, you can see three Viper Mark VIIs in formation.
quote: Did anybody else notice the Master At Arms in the corridor?
I didn't notice her the first time around, but I did with last night's repeat.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I just noticed a very interesting thing on SciFi's official Galactica site... if you go to the ships information page and look at the Viper Mark VII, there's a "CAG Roster" popup that lists how many fighters they've got in active service, how many are down for repair, and how many pilots (and trainees) they have, too. It seems that the stats haven't been updated since last season, but at that count, they had only 35 Vipers, with two-thirds of them down for repairs. Scary.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Her hand wasn't bleeding, she had blood on her hand. From, y'know, down there. You're nerds using the internet, you know where I mean.
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Hence the doctor telling her "we're trying to save your baby."
Too bad they were somewhat vague about it. As I was saying, the baby could have been endangered by the mere loss of blood, wherever it was from...
Anyway, it still doesn't fit too well that at the beginning of "Final Cut" she's bleeding and later they're trying to save the baby's life, and then in "Flight of the Phoenix" she looks all fine, as if nothing had happened...
Given that what she did was literally plug herself into the Galactica's computer(s?) in order to get infected with the virus and then broadcast it to the Cylon fleet, it could be that the complications in "Final Cut" were a result of that.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Too bad they were somewhat vague about it.
Good grief, how much do you want them to spell it out for you? Do you think they should've had an extreme close-up of blood coming out of her privates or something? She was bleeding, and there was no obvious wound, so therefore she was bleeding internally! Unless you're a naive child (and in that case, you probably shouldn't be watching the show anyway), it should be pretty obvious what was going on...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Still grumpy about networks, but this isn't about that.
quote:Originally posted by machf: Given that what she did was literally plug herself into the Galactica's computer(s?) in order to get infected with the virus and then broadcast it to the Cylon fleet, it could be that the complications in "Final Cut" were a result of that.
Oooh, that's a good point. I suspect you're right, machf. Sharon's peril seems A) ill-explained and B) to not really do anything for the plot except make things even more tense. Along with the 'fleet' alluded to in 'Final Cut', it seems like we're seeing things out of order.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I really don't think any extra explanation is needed to justify complications stemming from pregnancy. Humans have a really rough time with it, compared to our closest primate relatives. Also it is just plain freaky. And Sharon's carrying a hybrid, which is always tricky.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Sure, that's what I thought first after watching that episode. Buf after watching this other one later, and thinking a bit over the next days, well, something just didn't seem right... it's clear that whatever caused all the bleeding was pretty bad, enough to make Boomer 2 very weak (and judging by what we saw of her while on Caprica, she's stronger than a human) and the doctor exclaim that "I'm trying to save your baby" line. However, there's no mention of it later. Even if most of them don't care about Boomer 2, they do care about the child. They could have had the doctor reporting later to someone about the causes and/or the chance of something like that happening again. But we only see a) Boomer 2 bleeding and b) later, cylon-Xena hearing all the fuss when they're trying to save the baby just as she passes by and thus having the chance to film her for the benefit of her audience, and nothing more. Usually, the writers have done better than that on this show - everything fits, like pieces in a puzzle. Then seeing Boomer on the next episode as if nothing had happened somehow doesn't feel right...
Now, if on this week's episode there's a mention of that incident with the baby, that would be another hint that the episodes may have originally intended to air in reversed order. We'll see.
And BTW, I checked and it's not Kat's Viper that the chief had to label as scrap (that was Viper 591, this other one is 289). Had it been the same, it would have been an indication that indeed, the episodes aired in the right order and I'd have no ground for speculation, but since they are different ones, it leaves open the possibility.
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Machf,
I think that might be a production error -- the Viper looks identical in damage to the one Kat wrecked. Are you getting the number from the fighter itself, or the call-signs Kelly & Lee refer to it by?
"289" might be the permenant call-sign for the fighter, while "591" might be a flight-pattern designation of some sort.
I do agree that the episodes feel out of order -- not so much for the reasons cited about Boomer, though -- moreso for the atmosphere of the ship itself. The fleet has just reunited after a bitterly tense few weeks in Final Cut, yet they're in a GREAT mood. While, not long later, in "FoP", they're angry and swingin' at each other. Plus, it didn't seem like Helo would take THAT long to introduce himself to new members of the crew.
It almost seems like half of what was in "Final Cut" should've been in "Flight of the Phoenix" ... y'know?
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mighty Blogger Snay: Machf,
I think that might be a production error -- the Viper looks identical in damage to the one Kat wrecked. Are you getting the number from the fighter itself, or the call-signs Kelly & Lee refer to it by?
Well, just the callsign, as it was somewhat late and I just did a quick search until I found that scene. I didn't see any shot that would allow to read the number on the Viper itself.
quote: "289" might be the permenant call-sign for the fighter, while "591" might be a flight-pattern designation of some sort.
I thought of that too, so I heard the dialogue more than once. They say "Viper 591", not something like "flight 591". Of course, it can be to distinguish it from, say, "Raptor 591". Would they still be assigning flight numbers to single ships, with so few left? That's a whole other matter for discussion (and I think it's been considered before). Still, there's nothing definitive.
quote: I do agree that the episodes feel out of order -- not so much for the reasons cited about Boomer, though -- moreso for the atmosphere of the ship itself. The fleet has just reunited after a bitterly tense few weeks in Final Cut, yet they're in a GREAT mood. While, not long later, in "FoP", they're angry and swingin' at each other. Plus, it didn't seem like Helo would take THAT long to introduce himself to new members of the crew.
Yes, I read those reasons earlier. I was just adding some more.
quote: It almost seems like half of what was in "Final Cut" should've been in "Flight of the Phoenix" ... y'know?
Yes, that's more like it, actually. But, there are some scenes swhich are key to the plot of each episode and can't be swapped around. So, I'd say it's either trying to see if they fit better the other way around, or just accept the fact that they could have done better and didn't. Which would be a pity, having done so well until now...
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
The computer screen probably displayed '591' and he was reading what it said, not trying to keep track of individual pilots. You never know, Transponder #591 might have been installed in viper-hull #289 and not reprogrammed yet...
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
Judging by this thread, it seem it's a good thing that I haven't been around.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
People were in a great mood in "Final Cut"?
"Does it get any easier?"
"No ma'am. It gets harder."
Posted by Mighty Blogger Snay (Member # 411) on :
Sol,
The tone felt wrong -- in large part because at the start of "Flight of the Phoenix", Helo and Tyrol were fighting and Starbuck and Racetrack weren't exactly being nice to each other - y'know? There weren't any fights in "Final Cut."
Further - it seems odd that Helo would wait so long before introducing himself to the new pilots aboard the Galactica. It felt out of place.
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