Probably not worth a new thread, but then that never seems to stop the Stargate crowd. . .
A few points, however. Fisk RIP! I note they stayed coy about his replacement. Tigh wouldn't (and couldn't) do the job. So who else have they got, apart from someone unmentioned among Pegasus' much-depleted command hierarchy? Or maybe, er, Captain Kelly?
More cicumstantial grist for the Dualla-as-Cylon rumour mill. Cylons seems to have this pathological need to be loved by humans. So now the Lee Adama route has closed off, where is she? Back with Billy, who's probably regained importance now anyway, since his employer isn't about to croak anymore.
How many episodes have started with cliffhanger prologues preceding "48 (or whatever) hours earlier" plotlines? It's pretty sloppy writing, especially when done as much as it has been. Perhaps it wouldn't have been as bad this time if "Resurrection Ship Part 2" hadn't done the same thing, so recently, even if used as obvious filler in that example.
THAT's Roslin's solution to the "did I just remember once seeing Baltar meet with a Cylon agent?" question?! Give him a chance to quit?! Granted even she doesn't know about his seeing her letter to him or the reaction it had (unless she's asked Billy and inferred the rest) it was a totally dumb thing to do!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I don't know if Roslin's offer to let Baltar quit was stemming from her memory or not... I've gotten the impression that she's not entirely remembering it, that it was something she saw out of the corner of her eye (so to speak), but doesn't quite realize the significance.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I didn't necessarily agree with people who said that Cain's evilness was over-the-top. However, in this episode, I think throwing in a child prostitution ring was perhaps taking things a bit too far. The other things going on weren't bad enough? Did they feel they just really needed to drive the point home?
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Yeah, that seriously bugged me. And being a father, of course it overshadowed everything else in my mind.
At the beginning, before they mentioned her name, I was thinking that this might be Cassiopeia. Oh well...
It really suprised me when they killed Fisk. I really wasn't expecting that.
As for Roslin's actions, Baltar's always bugged her. It's just that he had his usefulness before as someone the people recognized and liked. I suppose that's not enough for her now.
B.J.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Perhaps it's a sign of the times, but heroes seem to be getting meaner. If it ain't Mal Reynolds casually booting people into jet intakes, it's Lee Adama absent-mindedly crushing one guy's windpipe then using his own gun to shoot another in cold blood while looking straight into his eyes!
Never expect gratitude, though. Bill Duke was still twitching and already the whore had gone from "Oh, no! My daughter sold into sex slavery!" to "Perhaps we can just be friends." The whole scene was rubbish. Poorly written, poorly executed. You don't stare down the Fleet CAG and say he'll never have the guts to shoot when the same man once destroyed an entire civilian transport just because they'd lost radio contact!
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
That isn't the way I would have handled it. I don't know if I'd have been more successful or not, though.
I thought Apollo was pretty stupid to go by himself to Prometheus and confront the Mob. They'd already ambushed and nearly killed him once. Must make a guy feel pretty big to be able to get the jump on the CAG.
Nope. After being jumped on Cloud 9, I'd have had a change of heart and sent in a squad of Marines from the Pegasus. Let them deal with the real killers of Fisk, not just the "triggerman."
Storm the Prometheus and bust the heart of the black market operation, at least for the time being. It may have sprung up again, but the message would have been sent that the Mob isn't welcome.
Then I would have called an inquiry on anyone who knew about these civilians coming and going on Pegaus.
Geez, Apollo, get someone to watch your back. Starbuck, at least.
Speaking of Starbuck, how about those notably absent this episode: Starbuck, Helo, Boomer, Tyrol, Kali, Ellen Tigh.
I was disappointed with the opening. We'd just had a flashback story of sorts, now we have another. Groan...
Plus, why is Apollo investigating this? A murder investigation is not the realm of a CAG. It's the Marines responsibility. It would have been better if they'd have dealt with that realistically. It wouldn't have allowed for Apollo's character to be developed more, however.
Still, it could have given us more secondary characters to keep an eye out for. Just stupid story writing/constraints of the budget.
I've been a little disappointed with the way Roslin has handled things. She's been a good president, but thinks and acts like she's still on the colonies. These aren't the colonies. Times have changed, the structure of society has changed and the government needs to change accordingly.
For example: We saw an episode where the President, Vice President were elected by the Quorum. There's still a Quorum with memebers representing every colony.
Now, my question is why this structure? Are there enough survivors from every colony to warrant their representation in the government?
Is dividing the Quorum along colony lines logical any more? Before the attack, the colonies were specific geographical locations. It would make sense to have a represnetative from each colony in the government, just like the U.S. Senate has representatives from each State.
But without any geographic colonies, these representations become nothing more than racial/ethnich divisions. Wouldn't this cause discrimination?
Instead, why isn't each ship of the fleet reprsented in the government? To me, this would make a little more sense.
Further, back on the colonies, I would imagine a lot of services were federalized. The United States, for example, has direct control over the public school system. The government controls the mail. Banks are regulated by the government and so are the utilities.
It'd make sense to me for Roslin to federalize every ship crew. These people who run the ships are doing the same services the government used to handle back in the colonies.
If each ship was federalized along these lines, more control could be exercised over the fleet. More monitoring could be done and situations like the Prometheus would be a lot harder to develop.
Speaking of which... if it wasn't for the Mob and criminal element stealing supplies, the government could do a better job of distributing the food and supplies.
And someone put a secret agent on Zarek's tail!
Was anyone else reminded of TOS first episode, "Saga of a Star World" when Apollo was confronting Tigh about the bracelet and the food? Reminded me of Apollo's confrontation with Sire Uri on board The Rising Star about hoarding food.
The hooker in this should would have made a nice homage to Cassiopia. I was, in fact, expecting Apollo to pull out Muffett when he was first talking to her daughter. The scene reminded me of TOS Apollo trying to cheer up Boxey.
I'll agree that the child prostitution/slavery was a bit over the top. I'm sure the people who were upsest/stopped watching BSG after the Boomer rape scene would agree, too.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I didn't mean to imply I was offended by it, or anything. Don't imagine me as some old lady saying "tsk, tsk, how tasteless". I'm all in favor of using child prostitution as a dramatic point. If they could pull it off. Which they didn't. It felt like they were driving things to the point of sheer silliness. "Look at this! They're EEEEEEEEEEVIL!"
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I was listening to this episode's podcast during a long drive this afternoon, and not paying 100% attention to what Ron Moore was saying. He was saying something about the brothels on Cloud 9 and comparing it to Cassiopeia in the original BSG show. He then talked about how Cassiopeia had become Starbuck's girlfriend, and I thought, "HUH? ...Oh, right, the original Starbuck. Never mind."
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not so sure Dualla was looking to hook up with Lee (as the kids say), so much as she wanted to learn what his intentions were. (The better to figure out her future hook up options.)
I'm not so sure about the whole black market thing either, because we don't know how the legitmate one works. What resources has the government nationalized and rationed? All of them? Just food and medicine and water? Of course, the question isn't what's legal, but what's enforcable. (On the other hand, isn't it always?)
Anyway. Interesting that despite some military victories the general outlook in the fleet seems to be getting gloomier.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: ... It felt like they were driving things to the point of sheer silliness. "Look at this! They're EEEEEEEEEEVIL!"
And so it's OK for our "good-guy" to shoot an unarmed man point-blank in the chest. Sometimes, a lot of times, really, I miss Firefly.
So I realize we're not having Apollo be the golden boy he was on the original series, but a prostitute? That's kind of a big leap. Even with the mystery of his baby-wantin' self all neatly wrapped up. Sipowicz with a whore from those early bits of NYPD Blue, I'll totally buy. But Jamie Bamber is a beautiful man (whose call sign is not-coincidentally a Greek god) with power, charisma, and if I'm not mistaken, quite a list of interested parties. Like (our own) Lee said, the whore's story seemed awfully slap-dash too, with a pat little wrapper on the end.
And speaking of ends, dude, Bill Duke. Maybe it's just me, but he knocked his character out of the park. And now that character is over. But how cool would it have been to have the cool, brooding subtlety of Bill Duke shuffling things around in the complicated shadows of this show? Every now and then doing something constructive, every now and then something impossibly cruel. Even if we didn't see him, just knowing he's there makes it scary. 100% better and more realistic than that crappy peacenik movement from the previous episode. That character, that potential could add so much. Especially given the political aspirations of Zarek. To my thinking that scene with Zarek obliquely helping Lee was the best part of the episode. You could tell Zarek was feeling a little edgy.
So the episode has a bit to do with supply and demand, and I think we can agree that in a desperate situation such as the RTF is facing, there are going to be back channels. But I'm still not sure I understand the moral of this story (or if there is one). That there is always going to be a black market, and that it's OK that people are going to want things they can't or won't get via the normal channels? Because that doesn't strike me as being a particularly strong statement (esp. given where and how this show has otherwise come down). Weak tea, this episode was for me.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Now that I have listened to the commentary, it is interesting that Moore seems to mostly have the same criticisms about the episode as have been presented here.
(Also, re Firefly, I wonder how things would have turned out if it had been on the Sci-Fi Channel instead of Fox. I would have been horrified at the time, because I was still bitter about MST3K and am a big nerd, but you can't say the network has done anything but good by Galactica. If Moore can be believed, even their various notes are for the most part unobtrusive and even helpful.)
Too bad about Fisk, really.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wait a minute, bX? This must be Andrew's doing. Soon we will all descend into madness.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Like it hasn't happened already.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Madderness?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Come, let us gambol gaily through the hour of bewilderment.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Re; Mr Duke... I can't believe I haven't seen anyone speculate on his being a Cylon. His position was one of the best places in the RTF to promote societal entropy. And with a bit of judicious house-cleaning at the upper levels, a ressurected model could have stepped in without anyone being the wiser (barring the fact that the Ressurection Ship went boom) -- or indeed, being replaced by one of the other undisclosed Cylons lurking in the fleet.
How many have been positively identified so far? Seven?
--Jonah
Posted by Paladin181 (Member # 833) on :
The thing I found stupid about this episode is that the whole Black Market thing just sorta sprung up and had Fisk involved. He's been wih the fleet maybe two weeks and already has a hoard of illgotten booty? Waste of a character in my opinion and the whole Baltar/Rosalynn relationship would have benifited more with him being alive. If they had made refernce to the Black Market more throughout the show leading up to this... ok. But having it be this all powerful force just requires to much of a "gimmi".
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
As has been stated already, from the podcast it's clear that Ron Moore has the same problem(s) with this episode as we do. Given Galactica's astounding track record, I think we owe it to them to write this one off as a "bad day", chalk it up to experiance and move on. There's just so much wrong with it that I can't help but feel sorry for them. I've no doubt that this lapse is the exception, not a sign of things to come.
This post was made possible thanks to the RANDOM CLICH� GENERATORtm Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Oh, I have absolutely no problem forgiving an occasional bad episode, because even Galactica on a bad day is a hell of a lot better than most other shows on their best days!
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Wait a minute, bX? This must be Andrew's doing. Soon we will all descend into madness.
We're trying something...different. (I figure if I can't shorten my posts, the least I can do is shorten my name)
Known human Cylon models to date:
Leoben Conoy (Arms smuggler on Ragnar from mini)
Aaron Doral (Galactica PR guy from mini)
Sharon Valerii (Boomer)
Six/Gina (Doubleplus hotness)
Simon (Dr. Feelgood)
D'anna Biers (Xena)
(Did I miss anyone?)
I think part of the reason we're upset with a bum episode for this show is precisely because there have been so many good ones. And so we notice when one doesn't measure up. And also because the one before was sort of a stinker too.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm sure there is comedic potential in the fact that Leoben is played by Sidekick-mark-II from Due South, and who also played the sexual-experiences guy in Last Night. I just haven't figured it out yet.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I suspected Duke was a Cylon but, with the way they've developed this, I suspect any new character, any badguy and any suspicious known characters as being Cylons.
Interesting thing about the fleet arrangement when it comes to the Cylons. After about a year or so in space, it will become hard, in my opinin, to plant any new Cylon agents into the fleet.
Each ship is it's own separate little community (I'm not sure about the size of these ships, nor their crew compliment but 49K people scatterd over 100 ships is an average of 4K per ship). In communities that small everone will quickly recognize everyone and any outsider will be easy to spot.
I'm sure people could suspect the new person is from another ship but that wouldn't stand up under close scrutiny.
And with Cylons of the same model looking the same, some people would be on the lookout for identical twins.
This has just given me some interesting ideas for future episodes. What are the "nut-case" types in the RTF like? You know, the conspiracy theorists and those others that are far out there. Do they suspect Cylons at every turn?
And it'd be cool to see a known (at least to the audience) Cylon agent disguised in some way. Either Gina with a different hair cut and color or a Leoben with a scarred, burned face (done intentionally so no one would recognize him) or with a beard, et...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I find it kind of amusing that whenever a new antagonist type character is introduced, I see people immediately speculating that they might be a Cylon; Tigh's wife, Cain, Zarak and now Bill Duke's character. As if humans aren't capable of causing trouble for each other without the help of the Cylons.
If we look at the track record of known Cylon agents, they tend no to be that highly placed. If anything they tend to be off to the side rather than at the centre of power. They're manipulators and seam to have a very firm grasp of human psychology, as such they don't need to directly interfere to move their agenda forward.
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: If we look at the track record of known Cylon agents, they tend no to be that highly placed. If anything they tend to be off to the side rather than at the centre of power. They're manipulators and seam to have a very firm grasp of human psychology, as such they don't need to directly interfere to move their agenda forward.
I'd tend to agree - by now I think it would be quite cheesy for them to reveal someone highly placed as a previously unknown model of Cylon. It might be cool if many of the Cylons are played by relative unknowns: just the sort of people who blend in, and would therefore be perfect for the job.
By way of a P.S., I was just thinking about the whole "nondescript, blending in" concept - wasn't that one of the initial ideas for the "Terminator" concept? I thought I read somewhere that Lance Henriksen was considered for the role because they wanted the machine initially to look like someone who could just blend in to a crowd and yet still be deadly. Off topic I know and sorry about that, just that these tangents occur at odd intervals.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :