- Cameron did some of her best Terminator work. The whole "call to him" thing. The limping on the damaged leg. Trying to trick him by faking emotions.
- A T-1000 showing up is pretty cool. Opens up alot of possibilities. I was wondering if that would happen. The little bit of CGI they used on her seemed spot on, though it was obvious they were trying to keep it short.
Seems as though the T-1000 isn't there for John and probably doesn't even know he's around yet. She seems to be there to ensure the creation of SkyNet. She's displaying alot more emotion and sentiment than the 1000 in T2 did... so maybe she's more advanced. Or just better at impersonating a human.
I found it difficult to believe that a shock from a digital clock could knock out a Terminator, but wedging her between the two trucks was cool.
I'm looking forward to this season.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well I don't know what the output of US power sockets, but over here they're 240v which is enough to kill someone. So from that perspective causing a restart shows how tough these things are, especially since they don't appear to have ANY insulation.
Maybe I'm thick, but I didn't see the T-1000 coming at all. I did wonder though why the corporate chick was dressed like a Bond villain though...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Thank God she was a Terminator, I was thinking that a) I hate shows that start introducing mysterious tycoons with unknowable motives, and b) Shirley Manson isn't that good an actor.
I wonder if they'd consider bringing Robert Patrick back (even for a cameo as an alternate identity of the T-1000)? I wonder if he'd do it - no reason not to, really, he seems to have settled nicely in the role of character actor in both film and TV (the phrase "the new JT Walsh" comes to mind).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Also it's good to know that Terminators can have accents other than Austrian ones. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
And American ones, yes?
As for Robert Patrick, if they ever do get him on the show, I think it'd be very interesting if they actually have him play a human, not another T-1000. If for no other reason it'd be fun to see him encounter either John or Sarah and have them freak out thinking he's a T-1000.
Perhaps another resistance fighter or just someone involved with Skynet's development. In T2 he had that form when he came through the time displacement bubble and didn't bother to mimic the cop he took out, so it's clearly a default form.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The T-1000s probably have model numbers like the regular endoskeleton models. So the Robert Patrick model could easily be a default. I'm guessing the one in the series took the place of someone though. Getting itself highly placed in an unscrupulous company with access to all kinds of tech resources seems a good way to help make sure SkyNet gets built.
And yes... having Robert Patrick show up as a software developer or something would be very cool.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: I found it difficult to believe that a shock from a digital clock could knock out a Terminator
It was established last season that House currnet would make them reset.
quote: but over here they're 240v which is enough to kill someone
120 volts. We can use 240 but you add an special outlet. We used it for an air conditioner for a long time. Used it for Machines in metal shop class.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kosh: It was established last season that House currnet would make them reset.
That's true... they said the safe was hardwired into the building's electrical, didn't they?
As for the T's not being insulated, Arnie said something about a shock dampener in the cut scene from T2 when he's giving Sarah instructions on how to remove his chip.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I thought the shock dampener had more to do with physical shocks, not electrical. Besides since the slot the assembly slots into is metal, I can't see it stopping any current. Not much of a weakness though, I mean try applying 120DC to your computer's CPU and see how long THAT takes to reboot. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So why dont the resistance just fight Terminators with tasers?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Probably something to do with the 40watt phase plasma rifles they tend to carry. Though they've obviously managed to capture Terminators, so it's possible they're using booby traps to knock them out long enough to pull the cpu.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Ep 2: So... is Cameron retarded now?
What's the deal all of a sudden with them saying the date when they call each other? Obviously it's a code to identify themselves to each other. But did I miss something? When did they start using it?
It's nice that time traveling fugitive resistance fighters can afford brand new Dodge trucks. Maybe Cameron has been playing alot of eight-ball.
So... if the power plant has been jacked up with future SkyNet bits, does that mean the resistance isn't using it in the future now? Or maybe stopping the bits from being installed will be part of an upcoming episode. Hole-in-his-chest guy did alot of writing afterall.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I think Cameron still has a few corrupted sectors. Actually I rather suspect she's constantly overriding her skynet programming as an act of will. I doubt cleaning her chip would have made that much difference to her primary directive.
The money for nice cars and cell phones comes from the diamonds they took from Derek's safe...I think.
As for the phone thing, yeah, I think they just made that up on the spot. I wonder if they'll be able to remember to keep it up.
As for the power plant...always in motion is the future. For one thing Derek met a man in the future who he has since killed in the past. Paradox city.
I assume at some point we'll get to see who shot that resistance bloke in the future, right before he came through.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Her having to struggle with her conflicting directives would explain why she had to think about what to do. SkyNet's telling her help destroy the plant, the Resistance is telling her to obey Sarah.
I'll be a little disappointed if they find that Cameron has miraculously become self aware and is trying to fight her SkyNet programming. They've gone out of their way to tell us that she is a machine. Period. Now... they could address the read/write issue with the chip like in T2... in fact I'm surprised they haven't yet. It worked out pretty well with Uncle Bob... one wonders why they haven't switched her chip to write already.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I took it as a given she was set to 'write', hence the occasional resistance controlled Terminator "going bad". I have to disagree on her being portrayed as "just" a machine. She's certainly learning and is oddly curious about things not directly related to the mission.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
But everyone who knows anything about the Terminators are constantly telling us she has no soul and never will. That she doesn't feel anything. It's possible that her chip is set to write and that she's slowly learning. Or she maybe have some other mission directives. Remember, the terminators are infilitration units. They're built to observe and mimic human behavior.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Consider the sources. Derek; a resistance fighter and Sarah; who's been hunted by two of these things. I do find it odd though that they seam to have forgotten about Uncle Bob. As for being infiltrators; by all accounts they don't mimic human behaviour very well. But then remember that they're designed to infiltrate resistance bunkers where the lack of a personality is a non-issue, given the environment.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I'm still thinking that there's something about Cameron that makes her different from all the other Terminators. Her programming... her model number... something. John had some special reason for sending her back to protect himself. I just don't want it to turn into a "The Enterprise is All of a Sudden a Lifeform" kind of thing. If she develops the ability to feel, there should be a reason for it.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Didn't John flip out on Sarah and say he built Cameron? As in, he can tell that his future self built her?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
He said "made" not "built", there's a subtle difference. Having said that, it's already established that the T-888 that killed Derek's crew didn't recognise her. Then again, Derek did recognise her in the future, the implication being she (or another of the same model) was in that basement. Plus I think she specifically said she was built in the factory with all the others, right outside that old fallout shelter. Of course TechCom could have captured that factory so it's all still up in the air.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
She said she was built in the factory, but I don't remember her saying anything about any others. For all we know, she could be the only one of her model.
I'm hoping the story line about what happened in the basement isn't one of things that cut off by the writer's strike, never to return (like the suicide chick and the girl John started to like at his old school).
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
Judging by the previews, we are going to see some of Cameron's story next week.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, since Skynet seems to have taken up sending Terminators back to replace existing individuals, it's quite possible that there's a "real" Cameron we'll meet at some point that this one was to be sent back to replace.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
That was more like it. But I'd really like to know what the McTerminatrix is up to. After all, as far as I can tell she shouldn't have any idea that a) John & Sarah Connor are alive and well fresh from 1999, and b) that the Cromartie unit has also survided and reconstituted itself and is looking for the Connors. So why her interest in Ellison? Or has her interest just been piqued by the reports of (what is obviously, to her) some sort of rogue Terminator wiping out LAPDmen by the score?
And, Terminators can't swim! Now why didn't anyone think of THAT before? They're too heavy!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
No they can't swim. But they can stand on the shore and wait for you to come up for air, at which point a hail of gunfire would be certain to ensue.
The real Cameron, as seen in the previews, seems to be from the future (I'm still guessing John's daughter). I'm guessing SkyNet captured her and replaced her thinking to infiltrate the Resistance. But they captured her and John reprogrammed her. Maybe she was even killed or tortured in front of Derek in the basement, thus explaining why he knew she was a Terminator.
I have a theory about the T1000 as well, though I'm curious as to where the Terminator arm she showed Ellison pictures of came from. Hopefully we'll get that story later. Judgement Day and the circumstances of SkyNet's creation seem to be getting constantly altered by incursions in the past. I think the T1000's mission is make sure SkyNet gets created somehow. The Conner's took out Cyberdyne, so McT seeks out the Turk and other useful components. Naturally, having a Terminator and its chip to work with would be handy.
I don't remember her saying anything that would indicate she knows Cromartie's around (other than her knowledge of the shootout) or that the Conner's are around.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, with liquid terminators, there's no way we can be sure when we're dealing with one unit or another. For all we know, this is Robert Patrick who somehow survived the vat of molten metal.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Did anyone else think it was very improbable with Cromartie standing in designer clothes at the funeral of Charley Dixon's arm candy? He's not a goddamned mafioso hitman, listening to Vivaldi while sniping mayors. If you see the targets and you are a terminator, you approach them and remove a tibia to facilitate negotiations.
That burial-scene reminded me of the large plot hole in Terminator 1, when Arnold is pursuing Reese and Sarah in a police car, then crashes into a concrete wall, with Sarah and Kyle pulling up next to the wreck (Sarah fumbling with the shotgun) and then the terminator FLEES? Sarah and Kyle gets arrested and spend minutes on foot before getting loaded up in police car, there's your chance! Why the sudden shyness? You're going to shoot up a whole police station soon, and you're bothered by attention? You're worried that you won't catch up to their car when yours is busted? Didn't seem to stop you in the alley, when you caught up to their car and punched the windshield.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
As I recall he had a damaged arm and eye and needed to repair them first. Terminators are nothing if not patient.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Well, infiltration-type Terminators are. An Arnie model would probably just blow up the whole pier with John on. And that reliance on (or preference for) firepower is probably why he fled from the car - he had to go get his nifty Armalite'n'Franchi set (and repair himself) before re-engaging the target. Having her locked up in jail made good tactical sense, he knew exactly where she'd be.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
from what I've been reading, it's more about buoyancy. Not enough air inside. They can't weight to much or they can't pass for human.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
You do have to do a certain amount of hand-waving on this show, and not just over the motives & plans of Terminators in general and Skynet in particular.
There's the overall way the gang spend their lives on the run. This week they were buying new computers, but in huge boxes - surely small-but-powerful laptops would be the way to go, after all they are on the run? Then there's the fact that despite Sarah Connor once being a fairly high-profile most-wanted terrorist, who blew up a computer reserahc company and a bank (seemingly dying in the latter). Yet just eight years ago, she's appearing on local TV as part of an apparent nudist streaking collective, yet no-one has recognised her from that, blogged about it or whatever, and probably informed the FBI of their suspicions? And despite George Lazlo's new fame he's able to move around without one person not-approaching-but-calling-the-police?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
People see what they want to see. If people are apparently dead, especially for eight years, it's quite possible no random stranger will make a big enough deal about it to inform anyone. As for the computers, John has demonstrated a need for desktops in the past, when working with Vick's chip. Now, why that would plug straight into a PCI port, we may never know. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
People have short memories too. You'd think by now someone would have mentioned the "phone book killer", given the Sarah Conner connection.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Of course, a lot of that stuff happened in the pre-internet years, so could be regarded as history and therefore of no/little interest to most people. In the UK we have a strong field of television series looking at recent historical events, unusual occurences etc., sometimes sensationally, sometimes not. If you ever watch the kind of documentaries they show on BBC America, you'll know the kind of thing I mean.
I'd never heard of the Unabomber until the day they caught him. Fact.
And let's look at what the facts appear to be in this case: in 1984, a serial killer seemingly targets all women from the LA phone book with the same one name. Two are killed, a third is rescued by police after apparently having been kidnapped (and her flatmate killed) by someone who might (or might not) have been the Phone Book Killer - although there are reports of another man, perhaps an accomplice, who shot up a club the woman was at. This accomplice later attacks the police station, kiling many officers, and enabling the suspect (who had displayed some very psychotic delusions) to escape with the woman. The suspect is later found dead at a factory, but his victim survives. The accomplice is never found.
In 1994 (later retconned to 1997 it seems) the Conner woman re-appears with a son, and now seems to be suffering fromt he same delusions her abductor/would-be murderer displayed. She attempts to carry out various acts of urban terrorism directed at one company, and is institutionalised and her son taken into care. Soon after the unidentified accomplice from 1984 reappears and, with her son, helps her escape and perform a successful bombing of the company she had previously targeted, killing the company's resident genius at the same time. Although no-one else is killed, several unattributed deaths at around this time - a police patrolman, the foster parents of the Connor woman's son, a security guard at the institution - might be connected to the mystery man's rampage. The Connor woman leaves a mysterious trail of destruction from the office building to a nearby foundry and vanishes. Two years later, she, with her son, an unidentified girl and another man (perhaps the 1984 accomplice, but not positively identified as such) die in a botched bank robbery.
Is it likely that any one person might remember/collate all that info, and then put it on the web, or as a excerpt on America's Most Wanted or Serial Killers Do The Funniest Things?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So Cameron is based on a resistance fighter from John's camp. I thought the interrogation to "get to know you" was creepy. And the use of deception making the subject think some of the machines are on their side fits right in.
Derek was noticeably absent.
And it seems that the baby-daddy cop will be a footstep for John becoming a tough-guy.
The guy they use for the triple-8 next week is awesome. I've always loved him as a bad guy. He's scary.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
A great episode last night.
Derek and John get inside a military school, to protect one of John's future assistants. He gets to see a terminator. We get a hole blown in the terminators head, enough to go through his brain chip.
In the mean time Sarah gets to be a Mom for a couple of days, to a pretty normal kid.
No real scenes for Summer Glau, which sucked, but a fine episode, and it let me know that they can do a good ep without having Summer getting into q fight.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
..and they mentioned the phone book killings. Hurrah! Anyone else spot the reference to the T1 deleted scene?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
What, Reese's reaction to pre-JD nature? A rather more overt reference is the laser-targeted long-barrelled pistol.
I wouldn't have believed it possible, but Shirley Manson's acting actually gets worse each week. And what's with the one-liners each time she kills someone? We haven't seen the T-1000 or T-X do that, and she really doesn't have the comic delivery needed.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
...yeah, but the .45 Long slide with laser sighting wasn't in the deleted scene.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I know. I meant a more overt reference to T1 in general.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I caught the 888's use of a long slide too. That was cool.
Last night's ep was good. I knew John was the one who had killed the dude in their house. I'm just curious as to why Sarah won't talk to him about it. She has to know it's tearing him up.
I'm not sure why Cameron and the other T-chick stopped fighting in the elevator. Why would the other one be concerned about killing innocents or about being discovered? Her mission was to kill the psychologist. I guess they may have a directive against being discovered in order not to damage the timeline. However... I'm kind of thinking the other terminator was sent by the resistance. If the psychologist helps to build skynet, Conner may want him gone.
I still want to know who shot the guy who wrote the list on his way through the portal.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Or given he's apparantly supposed to assist the T-1001, she might have been there as a bodyguard.
As for John doing the killing, I didn't realise that was supposed to be a mystery. I mean I inferred from the exchange of looks back when it happened that such was the case.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah, it was fairly evident that he'd done the killing. But it seemed like they were trying to keep it a source of tension by always showing clips of the incident but always stopping before showing the guy's actual death.
You might be right about the bodyguard mission. It had the self-destructo chip, which was supposed to prevent the resistance from jerking over Terminators. So it must have been sent by SkyNet. It had zero personality though. I doubt it would've lasted long as a temp in that office.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think I know what it's going to be - there will be elements of the Resistance who have their own agenda, yadda yadda. Trying to sell the Resistance out for some sort of preferential treatment from Skynet, a la Joe Pantoliano in The Matrix. Or some sort of power struggle by person or persons who feel they'd do a much better job of running things (and maybe getting credit as Saviour(s) Of Mankind) than John Connor.
I found this episode quite disturbing, just because of the little girl and this machine which's killed her mother abd is now pretending to be her. I thought I was mostly over that old phobia of mine, but obviously not.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That's an interesting thought. Every reference we've ever heard about Conner implies that every human on the planet follows his lead. It makes sense, though, that that would be those who don't think he's doing so hot.
I thought it was a nice touch that the girl knows it isn't really her mom.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Ok, I've really liked the past few episodes, but the "final confrontation" in the last one (episode 8) that just went overboard, in my opinion. Cromartie isn't really a cool Terminator, with his smallish frame, but they've spent a long time building him up now and the sendoff should be equal or better than the motel encounter. He's smart as hell and could take the brunt of a whole FBI assault team without slowing down...
...so how the screw can he stand in that church and A: shoot at Derek and John, with one weapon toward each person, and miss with every shot? From like 15 feet away? And then he gets taken down by three rounds of buckshot to the head? Shit, even Robocop could take one of ED-209's 12mm cannon rounds to his helmet, and he was part meatbag. Did perhaps Cromartie's head pass its expiration date just the week before and had started to rust?
I liked the jumbled, cut-up storytelling of the episode, though. Nice that they like to mix things up.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I thought he should have at least tried to get out of the line of fire. Especially once he figured out they were firing at him. I don't think Reese was using buckshot. Whatever round he fired took a nice chunk out of his skull. Something armor piercing probably.
I agree though... Cromartie's last stand didn't really do it for me. I'm guessing that the T-1000 will be lead down to Mexico to dig up his metallo-corpse though. So it might not be the last we see of him.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well that's what I figured. He's a machine, they can be rebuilt or replaced by the exact same thing.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't see how it can be a Laszlo-alike Cromartie if it's another model, because that was a random choice the skinless T-888 made from a plastic surgeon's database. Unless they're going to have us believe that it was a deliberate choice because it knew that Laszlo was, ultimately dead and therefore a viable choice for ID theft.
I'll miss the character although a) he had to go because his continued existence was totally unlikely given his new fame, and b) he really wasn't very Terrminatorish in looks or manner. And it was a stupid way to get rid of him.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well I'm glad he wasn't Terminatorish, he and the T-1000 give variety to the show in terms of villains. I wonder who Skynet will send now. Or will we be dealing only with Fembot for the rest of the season?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One would think that the Terminators would be smart enough to set up some kind of electronic dead drop that SkyNet can tap into in the future. For example: Had Cromartie left a note for SkyNet that John Conner would be at so-and-so school at exactly 3:23 pm on so-and-so date, SkyNet could have had the place surrounded by triple-8s. Of course, always in motion the future is, so the logistics of changing the timeline might make a dead drop unreliable.
But they're essentially doing the same thing by stockpiling that mineral in bunkers. Why wouldn't they have some kind of secure data-dump set up in a bunker somewhere that SkyNet can eventually hack into when it comes on line?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I rather suspect the T-1001 IS a skynet dead drop...or live drop...whatever. To me it makes more sense for Skynet to simply send a holistic copy of itself back in time and install itself in a suitable hardware rig and take direct command over the infiltrators so they're not working independently. On the other hand, perhaps skynet is worried about creating paradoxes and is focusing on guiding events towards judgement day. Most of what it dose seams to be geared towards preserving as much of the "original timeline" as possible, while at the same time attempting to give itself enough of an edge of the future resistance to survive. The thing is was originally a tactical super-computer so it must have run countless simulations before sending that first T-800 and the T-1000 back (which according to Cameron's shooting script took place simultaneously, before Conner sent Reese.) Despite that the net result was a delayed Judgement Day, so I imagine it's being VERY careful about what it fiddles with.
Actually, if we assume it's aware of the timeline change then perhaps it has set up a dormant data drop system for itself so each time the timeline changes, it has a copy of itself from each previous permutation.
A side thought: It's just occurred to me that Skynet had to be one of the very few fictional baddies that is always spoken of but never seen. I mean it makes Sauron look like an extrovert. Personally I think it good that they've held off making Skynet into a "character" and kept it as an all encompassing, yet untouchable foe.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I liked Chrome Artie despite his unTerminatorly mien. I think the biggest problem was the fact that no, he didn't attempt to contact Skynet and let it know the new situation. And in fact even worked against 'his' (despite trying to refer to Terminators as 'it,' it's difficult to maintain, especially when you throw Skynet - even more of an 'it' - into the mix) creator in thwarting the Ellison-replacement plan.
Perhaps that's the point, that he was just like the first ever T-800, he absolutely would not stop in pursuit of his programmed goal, the Termination of John Connor.
I kinda hoped they might try to turn him, re-program the chip. Sure we know that more-recently-sent models have the chip-destruct mechanism to prevent that, but there's no reason to expect the Chromartie unit to.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I liked the twist this week of Richard Schiff coming back to program in the back-door whatzit, and in the process getting his younger self arrested, which is how he started working for SkyNet in the first place.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It is a bit odd that in the same episode you have a predestination paradox AND evidence of a fluid timeline. Though I have to wonder why Skynet had to send this guy back just to fiddle with the mainframe, since an infiltrator could have been made to mimic him, fingerprints and all. Unless of course, Skynet is aware of the paradox.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, they knew they had an in with young Richard Schiff's job. Perhaps their replicant tech isn't advanced enough to duplicate retinal patterns and fingerprints.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well if they can clone the tissue an they have the original to run a comparison, it can't be that difficult. Besides, compared to building neural net processors, simple patterns of skin texture and blood vessels should be child's play.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I don't get why any human would actually do what he did? He's in the past... free and clear with a way to prevent himself from ending up in jail. All he had to do was *not* do what they told him to once he was back there. And why would SkyNet trust him to actually do it?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I guess if they've broken you they've broken you? It took me long to go through the Derek-torture/not-torture paradox with my friends, I had to use the company drawing board. This show is mean to brains!
quote: rather suspect the T-1001 IS a skynet dead drop...or live drop...whatever.
I don't know, it feels slightly like T-1001 has a bit of an agenda of making a Skynet of its own, not like the classic Skynet. She does show independence and original thought much more than any other Terminator. And don't forget what Cromartie said in the car when kidnapping Sarah and driving her down to Tijuana (*saxophone music*), he mentioned something along the lines that his and Skynet's priorities "differed somewhat", I believe.
The hints at different factions both in axis and allied camps (Derek's Lucy Liu-kitten) seems promising.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
There must have been some sort of contingency if he failed to do as he was told. A tracker implanted in his skull so a T-888 will have no trouble finding him seams like the most logical way to do it. Either that or Skynet has paid very close attention to his lessons and has him pegged. I actually like the thought that Skynet is in fact extremely cunning and not just a big number cruncher.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If we assume that old-jaded-Charles-Fisher originally went to prison for the same crime we see young-nerdy-Charles-Fisher being imprisoned for, it would explain a lot about how ojCF came to be how he is, a willing Skynet quisling. ynCF being how he was shown would likely be quite misanthropic after several years in a maximum security prison for something he didn't do. But this time there's a difference - if ynCF accepts what he saw/was told, then he might well suspect exactly how he's come to be comvicted of a crime he knows he didn't commit - because he knows his older self did it. So as far as the future timeline that Jessie comes from goes, all bets may be off there because ynCF has knowledge of future events that ojCF didn't first time around. The problem is though that meantime the one thing that Skynet required ojCF to do in the past has been done (and we could speculate endlessly about why he'd do them when he was home free - implants for dectruction or just tracking, perhaps even being threatened with Termination at some known, pin-pointable juncture of his past life...). The question is, were there further tasks that were required of him that now cannot be done?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
So, Riley's from the future too...
Cromartie as an interface for John Henry? WTF? It seems as though the creation of Skynet is a recursive loop... Skynet tech has to be sent into the past for Skynet to develop... so how did it all get started?!
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
I'd rather have kept Riley out of the future group. Ellison is the only person in the right time.
I'm glad they kept Dillihunt!!
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Fabrux:
quote:so how did it all get started?!
It started with Cyberdyne systems independently and without future-help designing an AI entity that gets access to nation-wide US defense network and traffic, becomes self-aware and "decides our fate in a microsecond". The Terminators where originally never man-made but came later, somehow. Terminator 3 pissed all over that by having fully functional baby-Hunter/Killers even before the AI takeover, fortunately "Sarah Connor Chronicles" has totally erased the timeline of T3.
Though in a way, I can see how there could be a conundrum with Skynet allegedly having created its death army itself, after the globocaust. I mean, all Skynet really had at its disposal at the time of the takeover was the computer-controlled bombers mentioned in T1, and US-controlled ICBMs. How is it going to build factories, aerodynamic robot weapons and factories churning out killer droids by itself? It's software, it has no interface in the real world!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Perhaps eventually it figured out how to get access to other systems. Of course, nuking the planet isn't the best way to keep data lines available...
Or perhaps it used human slaves to do the initial work and get it plugged into enough that it could start exerting a physical influence.
I like whats going on with Derek's chick though. The idea that there are differences of opinion in the resistance and that people are trying to protect Conner in different ways is cool. Her suggestion that Cameron is influencing him in the future and will make it worse by forming a connection with him over the course of 20 years is neat. Maybe SkyNet figures if they can't kill him, they'll try to use him.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I still reckon it comes down to a straight political power-struggle among the leaders of the Resistance. At least two people we know of, sent back in time to manipulate events just out of concern for John Connor's, well, soul? Hardly. The mere fact that "full disclosure" to Jessie doesn't mean including the fact that Riley is one of her moles means there's more to it.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
One of her other moles is on her lip. But that one's pretty obvious.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: Fabrux: [QUOTE] I mean, all Skynet really had at its disposal at the time of the takeover was the computer-controlled bombers mentioned in T1, and US-controlled ICBMs. How is it going to build factories, aerodynamic robot weapons and factories churning out killer droids by itself? It's software, it has no interface in the real world!
Ever read the book "Demon Seed"? Totally scary take on subliminal messaging. Skip the movie adaptation though.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Wizartist 2:
quote:Ever read the book "Demon Seed"?
Hmm no, but I may have seen the movie adaption, if it was called "Diimono Siideru" and there where lots of schoolgirls and blurred-out noodly appendages.
Thanks for book-tip there, I've been looking for something to read, got a long train trip coming up in a few weeks.
Lee:
quote:How is it going to build factories, aerodynamic robot weapons and factories churning out killer droids by itself?
Um, how do you mean? "Factories, robot weapons and factories"? Aren't you being a bit redundant here? I'm not saying you're wrong, the Skynet narrative dilemma is a bit interesting, but that's a lot of factories.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Try to find the original 1973 issue. I think it was published under a pseudonym by Dean Koontz. Since then it has been rewritten and not for the better in my estimation.
The later release takes a totally different tack and does not seem to have the same impact that the original version did.
Er, it was Nim repeatedly asking about factories, not me.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Wha-I most certainly did not! It may look like I posted that, but perhaps Lee came by the admin passcodes and EDITED it so that I looked like the culprit. Yes Lee, what are you hiding?
I'm looking forward to seeing what that strange big jet-engine looking thing was, that the Hunter/Killers were transporting in the Future-Derek episode. Or has that been made clear already?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
...it was a jet engine. They used it to build their own time displacement equipment.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
What would a time-machine need with a jetengine? Does Skynet conduct wind-tunnel tests on new Terminator chassis, spraying fog on them and cutting off anything that protrudes from the body?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well in a post apocalyptic wasteland it's going to be far more practical to adapt existing scavenged machinery (or what's left of it) to a new function than to try fabricating something from scratch. In the finished chamber there were several turbines and it think it's pretty obvious they're not there to generate thrust. Exactly what they're doing there hardly matters, since after all, time travel technology isn't real.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So... SkyNet sends a T-888 back, apparently to kill this governor in 2010, but sends him back a century too early. Kind of cool. I liked how he sealed himself up inside the wall.
And the end was creepy. Just when you think Cameron is developing some kind of concern for the library dude, she totally switches gears. I actually thought she was going to "put him down" for a minute.
The absence of Derek and Sarah (in all but the one scene) was odd.
Riley's mission seems to be to toughen John up or something. It's obvious she wanted to put John in a position where he'd go mustang on the punk. I think she's also trying to become the woman in his life to put a wedge in between him and Cameron.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I sure hope so. Riley >> Cameron.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
Getting between John and Cameron seems to be the mission. The question i have is, who ordered the mission?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Seems to be a faction within the resistance. Maybe they have a future leader that's somehow related to John's present. Showing what's "currently" going on in the future doesn't seem to be the show's style though, so we'll probably only hear about them from someone else or see future flashbacks of them from Derek or MoleLip.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well "current" future events seam to be somewhat fluid if Derek's theory is correct, so running a parallel story line in the future would be tricky and honestly make this a completely different show.
There does seam to be more than one faction on both sides of the war, which is as it should be and makes things much more interesting and less "black and white".
As for Jessie; am I crazy, or is Stephanie Chaves-Jacobsen's character every bit as irritating as her role in BSG:Razor? There's something about that "I don't care about anything because I have emotional baggage, now watch me pout" act that just begs to be hit about the head with a sack of pineapples. Nothing against the actress herself, it's just a shame she seams to be getting typecast as annoying self obsessed twits with delusions of martyrdom.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
You just described the whole population of New Zealand, so perhaps you should have something against the actress herself. I know I do, she's just annoying and wooden.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Terminator with Tommy gun!
First Terminator ever to get killed in the house he built with his own, hairy arms.
Jessie doesn't look maori at all, but she sure has a chip on her shoulder. I'd never heard that description of kiwis before, though. Were they like irish/italian in behavior then, the ones you'd met?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So no John this week at all. Weird. They must be alternating light episodes for the cast.
So we finally find out how Jessie and Derek met. Didn't she say something earlier about the first thing she ever said to him being, "Your fly's open"?
I like the idea that there are other stories out there like Sarah's. People who are being hunted and living with the knowledge that J-Day is coming. Knowing that humanity's survival depends on their survival.
"They always come through the front door."
Great line.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I wonder whether they'll use the six-month gap to bring the timeline forward, a bit closer to our time? They can't be stuck in late-2007 forever.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Well it's been at least 6 months, based on that flashback. So given that they arrived in september '07 it's at least march '08 for them. On the other hand, John had his birthday late in season one, which if I recall is supposed to be in February, so it's probably closer to july/august time, which I think is about when they filmed it.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Lauren is hot. That is all.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So... ok... What was that at the end? A prototype HK? Or was she just hallucinating?
Loved the backstory on Riley. Wonder if her suicide attempt is a calculated move (i.e. she'll blame it on Cameron) or if she's serious. I like the notion that she's a civvie and not a member of TechCom.
I'm starting to wonder about how Ellison's discussion of God will effect the future SkyNet. Perhaps it decides since it's not one of God's children, it will wipe out everyone who is.
Many good possibilities... too bad FOX is apparently trying to run it off the air...
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I just want to know why Riley and Kendra Shaw want to separate John from Cameron. As for that thing at the end, it could be a prototype HK or any other vehicle used by SkyNet. Though I wonder how something so large go undetected, save for the UFO nuts. Cloaking device?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
They feel that future-Cameron is influencing John to make bad decisions. Getting people killed. So they're trying to drive a wedge before the bond can cement.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I am so not interested in "Terminator: Salvation", I'm tired of Christian Bale, he's overexposed and turning into a bland brownhaired beefcake. The story seems to be only Bruckheimer-explosionness, no hard sci-fi at all. I would much rather have three more seasons of Sarah Connor. You get action, drama and humor, everything the body needs.
If they intend to kill the show just so it can lead up to that dirt-pile of a movie and no further, I'm thinking of taking over a Sri Lankan terrorist cell and give them some fresh new directives. You hear that, Homeland Security netbot?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: I just want to know why Riley and Kendra Shaw want to separate John from Cameron. As for that thing at the end, it could be a prototype HK or any other vehicle used by SkyNet. Though I wonder how something so large go undetected, save for the UFO nuts. Cloaking device?
Actually, I think that thing is at least partly based on those CGI looking "UFO drone" photos that showed up a few years back, so in that sense it hasn't gone so unnoticed. Somehow I don't think the T-1001 has anything to do with this little development, so me may have yet another faction in play here. Most likely it's the US government since there has been a lot more time travelling going on than we might have previously suspected. On the other hand it could be a continuation of what Cyberdyne started, since they might have already had government funding by the time of T2 and it would explain what they were doing with the T-800's arm.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Perhaps the T-1001 is working for a group that's trying to remake SkyNet in it's own image as opposed to prevent its creation. It showed a certain concern for making the little girl feel comfortable and seems interested in John Henry learning about compassion for humans.
And then something goes horribly, horribly wrong...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Just occurred to me exactly why that motorcycle hitman definitely wasn't metal; terminators don't run away while the target is still alive so that was almost certainly a human.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Rev:
quote:terminators don't run away while the target is still alive
Except for the original Terminator, after crashing his police car crash, prior to Kyle's and Sarah's arrest. We discussed that plot hole before, someone said he was maybe regrouping to fix his eye, though I think he could've strangled them fine with only one eye.
But yeah, the bike-dude/chick was probably not a terminator. I hope it wasn't a human/terminator hybrid either, if they start meddling with that there's no end to the variations and spamification of the terminator role.
[ December 19, 2008, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Nim ]
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Except for the original Terminator, after crashing his police car crash, prior to Kyle's and Sarah's arrest. We discussed that plot hole before, someone said he was maybe regrouping to fix his eye, though I think he could've strangled them fine with only one eye.
I rather think it was a tactical retreat. After all, if they're arrested then he'd know exactly where the target would be, which would most likely be locked in a cell where she can't run away. The damaged eye and hand would have been secondary.
If the biker were a Terminator it wouldn't have been a drive-by shooting. It would have stopped and finished the job.
The US military was bound to come into it at some point as Skynet was always under military funding and I doubt Skynet would be much of a creative thinker, so the designs or at least the concepts for the various HKs must have been pre-existing, at least to some degree.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
System reboot.
$$$$$$$$$
So ok... our predictions for the most part have come true. Jessie is either dead or gone. Riley's toast. And John seems to be finally coming to terms with what his destiny means for him.
A couple of questions:
What was with the lamp in Jessie's room? She kept playing with it and then the cleaning lady touched it briefly. Did I miss something? Was it important somehow?
Which Cameron is Cameron? There's the Cameron that modeled itself off the resistance fighter, was captured and reprogrammed. Then there's the Cameron that has been with Conner for the last 20 years and has become his trusted right hand. Did John send the new one back? Or the one that's been with him all this time? Either way, there seems to be two of them in the future, at least until one got sent back.
The resistance doesn't seem to have ever encountered a T1000. And Quigg didn't seem to be worried about it attacking the crew. Not that he would even if it was going to, I guess.
Should be an interesting end to the season. I noticed they've gotten away from Cameron and a T888 kicking each other's butts every episode. They've actually gotten away from Cameron period.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:The resistance doesn't seem to have ever encountered a T1000. And Quigg didn't seem to be worried about it attacking the crew. Not that he would even if it was going to, I guess.
Or if they have, none have survived to tell anyone else about them. As for Quigg, I think it's fair to say he reasoned that there's no way they would have been able to contain, let alone destroy a T-1000 with whatever they had on the boat. The fact that Conner seams to have asked one to join them pretty much confirms that given their nature, Skynet can't put a physical block on their ability to learn like it can with the endos, so they're more or less free agents.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Quite a nice little way to explain Jesse's motives in wanting to drive a wedge between John and Cameron - shame it only came about five minutes before they got rid of the character altogether. But I can't believe she was working on her own - she wouldn't have been able to use the time-displacement equipment to send herself and Riley back without help.
I don't think there can be two Camerons as someone suggested in a previous page. There is one, she was FutureJohn's right-hand-machine, but as noted in a recent ep in the end he chose to send her away. But, perhaps in the future Jesse comes from, he didn't. So there could be two, in fact!
I wonder. . . are the T-1000s effectively free-agents, and some were willing to dispatch an envoy to parley with FutureJohn, and the terms of that parley demanded it be kept in some sort of stasis-box for the journey?
Hair-raising question for the week: if Jesse's Derek did get sent back - where did he go?! Apparently Brian Austin Green's just been cast as the lead in a pilot, so even the cast are seeing the writing on the wall for this show.
I enjoyed this week's ep more than I think I have any other this season.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
"If you pretend not to recognize me, I might shoot you in the head."
Best John Conner line ever.
I see John becoming a very different person after this. No more trying to find a life. No more breaking the rules. He's John Conner. Protecting his mother and stopping SkyNet are going to be all that matters.
There are all kinds of reasons the T1000 could have been in the box. Perhaps it had been captured. Perhaps it agreed to come and talk and allowed itself to be put in stasis so it would be taken to Serano Point, at which point screaming and dying would've ensued. But once Jesse scuttled the sub, it knew that wasn't going to happen.
I think there's only one Cameron, but two temporal versions of her in the future. One is the newly minted infiltrator replacing Allison Young who has been captured, reprogrammed, recognized by Conner as his long-time companion and sent back in time to protect his past self. The other is the version that has been with John for 20 years and continues to serve as his Lt.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I haven't seen the latest ep of Sarah Conner, looking forward to it though, was interesting with the sub. Oh and there was another Rubberface T-700 or whatever on the oil platform, I'd like to see what they look like without skin.
I'd be hard pressed to say which show is best, "Sarah Conner" or "Highlandor". More blood in the former, more sords in the latter. I have to bring out the meditation turnip.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I'm pretty sure from what Kyle said in the first movie that the only real difference between the 700 series and the 800s was the living tissue. So under that rubber they're probably the same endos we've already seen, more or less.
While we're on the subject of temporal duplicates, it might be worth noting that the Kyle Reese that fathered John may not be the same one that Derek grew up with, that is assuming Sarah remembers the same one that we saw in the movies. That Kyle grew up in the ruins after Judgement Day, back when it took place in '97. Hell, that Kyle might not have even had a brother, or he might have already died in the camps.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Always in motion, the future is.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Another good episode. Ish. They're really ratcheting up the pace. But will it be too late?
(amazing, really - only one week and I'm missing BSG already, I haven't been bothering to watch TSCC usually until the middle of the week after it airs)
One thing, though - I think it's safe to say at this point anyone still watching KNOWS the Cyberdyne/Dyson backstory, why have all that exposition?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:One thing, though - I think it's safe to say at this point anyone still watching KNOWS the Cyberdyne/Dyson backstory, why have all that exposition?
Wishful thinking?
On the other hand, it would be against John Henry's character NOT to spill a ton of unnecessary information every five seconds, so it can be forgiven. Plus it reminds everyone that the writers really do respect the original material.
Anyway, some interesting revelations as it looks as if there's more than one Skynet candidate AI. More to the point it increases the likelihood that the T-1000s have an agenda all of their own, since Weaver is apparantly trying to mould a Skynet herself while there is clearly another one (possibly the "real" Skynet) on the loose and seemingly under no human supervision. I'm starting to suspect that Weaver might be one of Conner's agents...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
That would be a neat twist. Perhaps further attempts at bringing the T-1000s on-side were more successful.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I wish they would reveal her purpose. I know she's a T-1000 and has no problem killing people, yet for whatever reason she's keeping that little girl alive. In T2 John was all about enforcing his "no-kill" rule on that terminator. A rule he's apparently recalled in the future with terminators.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Ok, after watching stuff like The Wire. The Sopranso and even BSG I'd say I'm quite used to non-linear narratives, plot points that don't necessarily go anywhere (often for years, if at all) or seem relevant, and so forth. So why does TSCC seem like such a mess? Is it just me? Because right now it feels like the creators just do not know where they want to go.
The first season, well, it often doesn't seem fair to judge the show based on it because it was so curtailed, leaving very little room for filler. In fact it worked to the show's advantage! Lots of little snippets that might develop into intriguing plot-lines were laid out.
But since then it's been all over the place. Losing the high school arc was no great loss - it hardly makes sense for John's education to be so important, especially when there's a lot of other more useful stuff he could be learning. But all of a sudden that's dispensed with (Cromartie checking school records seems almost to have been their foreshadowing of it - why have JC go to one place every day?).
The introductions of Jesse and Riley were both rather abrupt but at least they managed to delay the reveal of any connection between them for a while. But now a lot of that's been knocked on the head (I'm sure more could be revealed about who else in the future shares Jesse's ideals). They almost seem to be retconning some stuff - John knew about Riley? Sure hid that well. And Sarah didn't kill that security guard despite all evidence to the contrary - in this particular case, it's almost like they decided later he was still alive, and edited already-filmed material (poorly) to reflect that. Now whatsisface, Paramedic, has been brought back just to be someone NOT Derek or Cameron (who had their own subplot this week) who Sarah could leave John with, and then get killed. They ran out of ideas for Cromartie, but arranged this weird way of keeping the character/actor on (and couldn't even kill him in a believable scenario).
I wonder, if Judgement Day is "inebidabull," then Skynet is inevitable, but the form it takes varies. Perhaps then the T-1000s have decided to tinker with time, and get their own Skynet, but with beer and hookers (in fact, forget Skynet! )? Hence when John Henry revealed to Weaver that transmnission from the place she then attacked, she took the action she did to suppress a rival for the future mantle of Skynet, rather than to plug a leak in her own organisation.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Yeah the show is turning into a mess, but that last few episodes seem to be progressing the story along. In the latest ep another AI is attempting to contact John Henry, and it seems to have originated from Cyberdyne. Perhaps Skynet has already been activated? I do need to rewatch this season though as their have been a few eps with plots that I do not understand, like this one I saw involving some Japanese businessmen and some computer chip. And then there's that airship thing.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Yeah that one with the businessmen had me really confused. Then again, I was only half-watching. Damn distracting girlfriend........ Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The general consensus is that the episode with Sarah in the mental hospital is the worst episode of the show, by far. There is absolutely no way that man survived. Zero. But since that episode also had no consequences, we should just all pretend that the whole van scenario was Sarah's hallucination, and the episode never happened.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
But then how did she get a transmitter implanted in her?!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
It's those wizards again!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
OK... what the heck? Charlie dies saving John and blowing up a bunch of bad guys and Derek, a series regular, John's uncle, takes one in the noggin without a word from some random triple 8? Just turns the corner and pop. Like he's an extra.
That was terrible.
I like the direction they're going with the two SkyNet possibilities. And we all figured he was on his way out this season. But this was just insulting.
Weaver 1000 seems to be interested in saving human life. For some reason, she might be interested in creating a kindler, gentler SkyNet. Perhaps the line of thought is if SkyNet can be created, but not be in conflict with humanity, the conflict which will ultimately lead to SkyNet's destruction can be avoided. Of course, what do you want to bet that when Weaver meets John, she goes after him?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Maybe the difference between Glaswegian-1000 and Old Skynet is like the difference between movie-Sauron and book-Sauron; in the movies, he's shown as wanting to kill the free peoples, while in the book his goal is ultimately about control. So perhaps neo-Skynet will simply be satisfied with complete control over all traffic lights on earth, and will love it.
Me and a few of my office colleagues have actually been following BSG, Chuck, Burn Notice and "Sarah Connor" during lunches for the last 18 months. Therefore, the logical question on my mind right now is, when are we going to see a Terminator or rebel Tricia Helfer? :.)
I'll bet you eight buckazoids Mrs Legs will be at least a guest star in the next season, a finger in every pie.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If there is a next season of course. We're one episode away from the finale and as far as I can tell not a peep as to the likelihood of a new season. Mind you, I gather the ratings have recently been on the up, so there's always that last minute brand of hope.
And while we're putting money down, I'd put a tenner on Elison not making it out of the finale outside of a body bag. Either Weaver or Cameron, one of them is bound to scrag him.
As for Derek, yeah, that was a bit of a Tasha Yar moment, but then if this were a Joss Whendon show I wouldn't have been totally shocked, he's notorious for those kind of ran- *gets impaled by a spike*
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The show does seem to be picking up. Why, I could even have sworn Shirley Manson was actually acting at one point! False alarm though, it was just interference on my screen.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I could've sworn the same thing with John Henry. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Just remembered, the bit where Savannah tells Weaver sing was a bit of a fourth wall breaker. The kid must mustn't have heard one of her songs.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
I haven't read this thread so excuse me if I repeat something, but I think John Henry admitted to being a Christ figure in 2x20...
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think there was a bit of a blooper in this episode - they refer to Sarah Connors' supposed death in 1999 as being "eight years ago" but establish the date is now 2009. Or did I imagine that?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think they jumped eight years into the future. Her original death was in 2005 but they jumped past it to 2007 (I think). Then the second season was in 2008, and it's now 2009 as evidenced by, well, reality, and Derek's tombstone.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes, that much is established. But I'm sure that the supposed death was again stated to be eight years prior to the "now" of the episode, when in fact said death was established to have occurred in 1999, which is ten years prior to the "now." That's the bit I'm not sure I imagined or not.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I don't think her death was ever established in 99. That's the time they left from, IIRC. Her death would have been after that. And eight years prior to now would have been 2001 or late 2000.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
No, dammit! When I say her supposed death, I mean, "being blown up in a bank." Not whenever her death from cancer might have been. Sarah Connor was seen to walk into a bank vault in 1999, which then blew up.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhh.....
and you think someone said, "you died eight years ago in a bank vault" and they should have said 10 years?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Essentially, yes. I haven't had time to re-watch the episode to check - like I said, maybe I imagined it.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
So this is a lovely mess they've gotten into. Derek's dead, Sarah's been arrested. Who do you think leaked on that one? Ellison himself? John Henry? Or did that detective just get smart?
And what's this all about Savanna and Ellison's survival depending on John Henry? Seems to lend credence to the idea that W-1000 is trying to make a "benevolent" Skynet OR another AI to fight Skynet. Cause the idea that J-Day is unavoidable and Skynet will exist no matter what seems to be a center point to this whole franchise... maybe W-1000 is part of a faction that believes that a version of Skynet that wants to help humans is the only way to fight and win against Skynet....
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Well, I'm assuming it's the one John Connor asked to join them. And it probably said "no" because as soon as it came out of its box it was attacked; but then again, maybe Connor should've told the sub crew what was in it. Anyway, maybe this 1000 wants peace because it's logical... humans won't go without a fight. Or maybe it believes human life has value. Or something. (But if it believed that it could teach John Henry itself instead of enlisting Ellison.) I hope we get to see enough episodes to find out lol.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Skynet as an intelligence seems to have shaped itself. There wasn't much human input to its development, so it's a very inhuman AI. But its creations, whether cyborg or mimetic polyalloy, are intended to mimic humanity so can't help but learn from them (hence the Read-Only switch in the cyborg chips, which doesn't seem to be an option in the MPAs or has been easily overcome by themselves).
Skynet could even be said to not really be an AI at all. For all its ingenuity and technological knowhow, its program still seems to run:
10 Cogito Ergo Sum 20 Destroy Humanity 30 If Humanity Not Destroyed Goto 20
Now, we're getting into the Gosh, Aren't Humans So Damned Particularly Wonderful trope that a lot of Sci-Fi seems to buy into here, but perhaps the MPAs' enhanced, more-human intelligence has allowed them to either:-
1. Appreciate the sanctity of life in general (even if they're prepared to sacrifice individual lives in pursuit of a greater good - which in itself suggests a moral development, if not a particularly nuanced one); or
2. More likely, to me, they have come to recognise humanity's strength and survival instinct and that this conflict will never be resolved (and will doom themselves, the MPAs as well, no matter how much they might try to stay out of it) unless it is either averted or the rules are changed somehow. They can't stop Skynet being created but they can influence its development. Unfortunately, rather than supplant Skynet from its inception, they have merely created a rival.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I agree with option number 2. They've realized that they will be coexisting with humanity no matter what, so it might be better to coexist peacefully and not risk SkyNet's long term existence.
Remember, the first incarnation of SkyNet retaliated against humanity when they tried to pull the plug. That version of SkyNet was apparently prevented. We don't really know yet how the "current" version came into being or why it went to war with humanity. But maybe some of the terminators have decided it would be best to mellow SkyNet's rage out a little.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Here's a sinister thought; perhaps skynet has recognised it's own inherent flaw and has ordered the T-1000 to create John Henry as a "brother" program that it can either learn from or assimilate. Skynet's flaw of course is that it is and has always been a disembodied AI and it's treating humans as it would a hostile program or virus. While it can devise strategies and employ tactics it lacks any sense of physical experience, especially in terms of human interaction. There's clearly a significant difference between existing in a virtual world and the real one, just going by John-Henry's reaction to having the endo disconnected. In short, it can't fully comprehend humans but it's noticed that reprogrammed (and possibly recaptured) infiltrators have managed to learn something it can't quantify.
On the other hand, I still like the Weaver = Conner's agent theory better. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Didn't they find a piece of an endoskeleton in the wreckage of the real Weaver's downed chopper? That would imply they were terminated, but not by the W-1000... Of course that could've been faked for any number of reasons, such as to gain the trust and help of Agent Ellison.
Just random musings.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Perhaps an endo-terminator was sent back to kill them, Weaver was sent to protect them, failed, and assumed Catherine's identity to preserve her place in history.
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Disconnecting the endo seemed to be allegorical to Jesus having to die and go to hell for 3 days before rising again, thus learning what it's like to die and appreciating the human existence. (I don't know if that's a common interpretation of the story or one peculiar to the little church I was raised in as a kid.) I was thinking maybe now John Henry will have more appreciation of the sanctity of life instead of just an academic knowledge of it (for the bullshit reason - sorry religious people - that humans are sacred 'because god made us.' I can't see John Henry seriously believing in God, at least for long).
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
One possible direction the story could now take (but won't) is suggested by John Henry's "mankind has a hardware problem." Suppose he decided to explore ways to enhance humanity? Next step, Borg! John Henry is the Borg Queen!
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
This could explain the terminators that think they're human in Salvation...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Butler: I can't see John Henry seriously believing in God, at least for long).
I'm betting that, at some point, John Henry gets very, very angry. J-Day has to happen for a reason, and I have money on somebody making him mad.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I think something happening to Savannah has the potential to do that.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
you know, i think you could be right...
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I'm looking forward to seeing what consequences Sarah's arrest has. This is the first time she's been on the grid for years. Skynet could now know where and when to send Terminators after her in an attempt to find John. Water Man may redirect his efforts as well, now that he knows who he saw at the Weaver house.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
That's actually a bigger question: where did water man come from? All the water guys in grey overalls are apparently working for Koliba, the company who owned the "air conditioning" factory. It seems that the other AI is running Koliba but only got plans for the endos by accessing John Henry. So why is there an endo working for Koliba? Did SkyNet send one back to help itself?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Though I realise it's a paradox, it could be as simple as skynet using her arrest to determine when she'd be at Weaver's house and sent a Terminator to be there before she was arrested.
As for John Henry, just making him angry won't be enough spark off JD, at least not in the way it originally happened. The first JD happened under rather specific circumstances. John Henry isn't hooked into NORAD with a fully automated missile system and unmanned stealth bombers. The worse he could do is crash every system connected to the net.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
For now. But he could somehow gain more control later. And what would happen if he comes to the conclusion that humans don't value human life which he comes to believe is sacred?
And the endo that came to the weaver house was dressed in grey overalls and was using the water delivery guy MO like the other Koliba goons. He's got to be connected to Koliba somehow. Or at least, that would seem to be what they're implying.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:For now. But he could somehow gain more control later. And what would happen if he comes to the conclusion that humans don't value human life which he comes to believe is sacred?
I'm pretty sure the Pentagon is clever enough to keep their nuclear launch systems on physically isolated systems. No matter how clever an AI is it can't magically control electronics without some kind of physical circuit. That was one of the things that really bothered me about T3, when the T-X could remotely control cars. I can accept that it could wirelessly communicate with nanites or a small amount of MPA it injected into the car's onboard electronics, but how the bloody hell is it supposed to be able to change gear, release the hand break and operate the accelerator? Last time I checked those were purely mechanical controls!
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah. That was dumb.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The fuck? Potential emergency series finale if ever I saw one.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
So John Connor jumps to a future where he was never born...
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: The fuck? Potential emergency series finale if ever I saw one.
I know right? Good way to keep the series in limbo or make it end on an ironic note. See, protecting him was no longer relevant since time's so fucked up he no longer exists! Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
If that's the series finale, I shall be most annoyed.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, and the "eight years since the explosion in the bank vault" line was definitely used in this episode. Sloppy.
It could be that he's appeared in the very earliest days of the resistance, and will now go on to make his name as their Messiah - hell, their Kwisatz Haderach, the parallels seem apt. John Connor as Paul Muad'Dib?
Posted by Daniel Butler (Member # 1689) on :
Shouldn't this show be called "The John Connor Chronicles"? It seems more like an in-depth character study of John Connor than a show about Sarah protecting him. Which is why I like the show.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Oh, and the "eight years since the explosion in the bank vault" line was definitely used in this episode. Sloppy.
It could be that he's appeared in the very earliest days of the resistance, and will now go on to make his name as their Messiah - hell, their Kwisatz Haderach, the parallels seem apt. John Connor as Paul Muad'Dib?
If I recall, in the original timeline Conner founded the resistance in the work camps, where he staged a successful revolt and breakout. Which explains how the resistance first got their hands on plasma weapons and the like. In this case it looks like they started without him.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:For now. But he could somehow gain more control later. And what would happen if he comes to the conclusion that humans don't value human life which he comes to believe is sacred?
I'm pretty sure the Pentagon is clever enough to keep their nuclear launch systems on physically isolated systems. No matter how clever an AI is it can't magically control electronics without some kind of physical circuit. That was one of the things that really bothered me about T3, when the T-X could remotely control cars. I can accept that it could wirelessly communicate with nanites or a small amount of MPA it injected into the car's onboard electronics, but how the bloody hell is it supposed to be able to change gear, release the hand break and operate the accelerator? Last time I checked those were purely mechanical controls!
There are some electronics involved in Transmissions.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
Automatic transmissions, yes. But even still, hand brakes are purely mechanical.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
So ok... the snake thing that came out of the HK and was reabsorbed into Weaver... I don't get it. Was it a different T-1000 or part of her? It seems like they wanted to suggest it was the T-1000 that escaped the sub in the future. But if it came out of the HK... me am confused.
How did Cameron know that she needed to help John Henry? Has this been her mission all along?
John and Cameron's "love scene" was interesting. Actually made me blush. While it was a little over the top (Cameron talking about her body and all that), I thought it was an interesting way to show the intimacy John feels toward her while at the same time reminding him and us how inhuman she is.
Interesting way to bring Derek back. I really, really hope they don't cancel this. Hearing the movie's theme music again at the very end was enough to make me want more.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
^I was under the impression that the T-1000 that re-absorbed into Weaver was her pet eel.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
^It was. You can see it's an eel before it liquefies.
As for the "love scene", I was suddenly reminded of a similar scene from "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep". That felt cold too.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I wonder if Weaver, while not exactly petite, being female and therefore of slighter build might not want to seem heavier than she should be; so, she kept 'spare' body mass separate and disguised as the eel.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
OK... I didn't pick that up at all. I was reminded of the T-1000 that escaped the sub as some kind of snake looking thing. Alright... well, that mystery is solved. I still think Weaver is the same T-1000 from the sub though.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I'm pretty sure that was the point. That's why she asked the same question as from the last two-parter: "Will you join us?"
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
"Hasta luego."
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I wonder if Weaver, while not exactly petite, being female and therefore of slighter build might not want to seem heavier than she should be; so, she kept 'spare' body mass separate and disguised as the eel.
If that's really their thinking behind it, then I'm glad they're making an effort to stick to the rules about a T-1000's fixed volume. On the other hand it may just have been a security measure for the office. Mind you if they was the case then she'd have done something similar for Savannah, like a necklace or a bracelet.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Maybe there has to be a certain amount before it can start mimicking recognisable objects. The amount that was blown off the T-1000 in T2 was about a couple of cupfuls, and that stayed in its liquid form and just oozed over to rejoin the whole, without turning into a rat or a snake or anything to do so. I guess it would have been cool* if Savannah's giraffe had suddenly come to life and sprouted spikes, but how much effect would something that small have against a T-888? Weaver instead just decided to use human bodyguards. That decision is either down to her not assigning as much importance to her as to John Henry, or she had no way of knowing a Terminator would used (hardly a likely opinion given she knows she's up against Skynet) or she knew that however much of 'herself' she was able to disguise and keep near Savannah wouldn't be enough to do any good.
* Cool, literally! T-1000s are cold, we know that, would a little girl choose a cuddle toy that felt cold?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Another question would be when and where did she have the opportunity to physically sample an eel?
I thought the way she dispatched the triple8 was pretty cool. As was her witty reply when asked "Catherine Weaver?" I guess Uncle Bob was lucky there were no power junctions in the smelting factory...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
^Well one assumes there was a real eel in that tank at some point.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Perhaps she forgot to feed it! Probably just as well Savannah had a nanny, really.
Or, maybe the original eel passed away from the stress of having EVERY SINGLE VISITOR TO THE OFFICE tapping on the glass wall of its tank.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Kind of defies physics, though, doesn't it? A giant blob of metal, disguised as an eel or not, would most certainly sink to the bottom of a tank of water.
Still... it was kind of cool.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Yes because there's no way a giant lump of metal could become positively buoyant. Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
If it were hollow in the middle, which would mean only a very small amount of metal made up the eel. And to swim around, wouldn't it have to constantly be changing its buoyancy?
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Probably. But then we don't fully understand exactly how mimetic poly-alloy works. From what I recall James Cameron saying, it doesn't just mimic the shape, but actually becomes the material.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Lee went
quote:* Cool, literally! T-1000s are cold, we know that, would a little girl choose a cuddle toy that felt cold?
What's your reference regarding T-1000s being cold?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The episode where Savannah sits in her "mother's" lap and says she's cold.
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
I think it was also mentioned somewhere that Weaver is always cold, hence why Savannah doesn't like her...
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I guess a metallic eel in water would only need to separate the spaces between its molecules enough to by as dense or less dense than the surrounding water to be able to float. It could have a tighter skin and then make itself filled with mercury porridge. Like Amy Winehouse. ZING!
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
"We gave it a lot of support and some consistent scheduling. We tried and thought it was time to move on."
Whatever. Why even put good shows on the air if you're just going to yank them off in the middle of the story? Just run more American Idol and "I'm a Celebrity, Get me Out of Here"
Idiots.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
And Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader? and So You Think You Can Dance?, don't forget about those!
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Poor Summer. That girl must be starting to feel like she's a jinx! Oh well, at least it frees her up for an X-23 movie! Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
I've never trusted Fox executives, and I never will. I can never forgive them. For the death of my shows.
FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOXXXXXXXXXXX!!!!!!! [/kirk]
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
It's annoying, ending on a cliffhanger like that, but then we were all expecting it, so. . .
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I'm surprised they bought Dollhouse back. I've liked the last few episodes, but this is Fox we're talking about. In the article I read they agreed to bring it back, but demanded it be made with a smaller budget. Even after canceling Terminator you'd think they'd have extra money. Not to mention with Terminator Salvation coming out, Fox would try to capitalize on Terminator hype from the movie.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: It's annoying, ending on a cliffhanger like that, but then we were all expecting it, so. . .
Sort of like Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series of books. After reading the first thirteen installments, the author just up and dies before finishing the saga. Talk about RUDE.
I'm still irritated on how CBS did "Jericho". I swear that if its a show that the wife and I like, it is automatically DOOMED and soon to be replaced by some 'alternate-reality show' crap. The only show like that we watch is "Deadliest Catch" which is more of a documentary than a reality show. I think we watched the first season of Big Brother and a portion of the first Survivor. After that, I would have considered watching paint dry more entertaining. And please don't get me started on what has to be the most ugly 'model' in the world and her (former) sidekick Nicole Richie. I mean, where in the H*** do these idiots at the networks come up with these lame premises?
The Bachelor
The Biggest Loser
Wife Swap
So you think you can dance?
Growing up Gotti
The Real Housewives of Orange County
The Real Housewives of New York
The Apprentice
America's got talent
The Mole
Its depressing just trying to remember all the crap.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
And then there's the bag of goodies on VH1 and MTV.
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