A less revelatory edition than last week's, but clearly setting up a lot for the next episode.
It could've been a little boring, if it weren't for the frequent humour. Has there been an episode before with so many one-liners?
Adama's taking a lot of pills. A second "dying leader" candidate?
Gaeta's actions are clearly influenced by what he found out in the Face of the Enemy webisodes. You can't trust a Cylon.
Did Hotdog get that rash way back when from Cally? Revealing that Tyrol's not Nicky's father nicely frees up Hera as the only hybrid. Having two hybrids was always a bit of an issue before, after Six had bigged up Hera's significance.
Saul and Six's baby seems like another indication that the final five just aren't the same type of Cylons at all.
(btw, with the title I followed on from the previous thread which called Sometimes a Great Notion episode 13, but BSG wiki lists this week's episode as 4x12. I take it we're adding Razor to the count?)
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Episode numbering for this season is a bitch. Try the wikipedia discussion pages, its a minefield.
I really didn't like Gaeta much. What an asshole.. and why was he even attending the Cylon meeting with Adama? Tom Zarek is a lot better as an opponent. I can really believe a lot of the civilians would echo his ideas.
Did we have any evidence of him tampering with the votes to 'buy' the Vice Presidency? I'm not sure I like the idea, as it clearly puts Adama on the moral high ground, whereas I liked it if they had equal rights to 'existence'. Zarek seemed to work fine as just a populist leader with typical anti-government ideas.
Did anyone else find it quite shocking that Adama gave the order to arrest (with deadly force!) the Vice President? Adama having that classified file on him made it more reasonable, but he must've lost a lot of credit with the Quorum by arresting the VP.
IIRC, Baltar was preaching for the Cylon God, right? He apparently has denounced that God now. His internal Six seemed to be suspiciously absent?
Did I understand correctly that Tyrol is acting, or wants to act, as something of a leader of the fleet Cylons? It would fit his previous stint as union leader or resistance leader.
All in all, a lot of realigning happens in this episode. Adama and Roslin appear to be losing interest in leading the fleet, Zarek and Gaeta are forming an anti-Cylon faction, Baltar's cult has apparently denounced the Cylon religion, and Tyrol is attempting to forge a Cylon-Colonial union. Once more, any attempts to speculate on the future of the series seems impossible...
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Adama's an old hand at arresting governmental leaders, I don't think it bothered him. What I did find interesting is that his bluff with Zarek worked, which indicates he's not the squeaky clean idealist he makes himself out to be.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
See, I was wondering about that. Did Zarek cave in without even looking at the "evidence" because he was guilty, and Adama managed to trick him? Or did Zarek just assume (rightly, I expect) that it didn't matter that he hadn't done anything, because Adama would just fabricate evidence?
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
I think Zarek just caved because Zarek always caves. Because the plot demands that he cave.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
He caved because he's not stupid; Adama is a tactical thinker and he simply out manoeuvred him this time. Zarek is a lot of things but he's not crazy and has no wish to destroy the fleet for the sake of furthering his own agenda. No matter how he might compromise himself, he's still at his core, an idealist. That's what I like about the character and for that matter, Baltar. On any other show, both of them could simply been written as self serving villains, but instead they're antagonists, which is much more interesting because allot of the time they at least have a point and good reason to work against the protagonists.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Zarek's main asset, in fact the core of his whole being, is his image. He's got to be the rebel, he never Belongs, the farthest he'll go is to work behind the scenes. He never sought power, initially, because he knew people weren't ready to see him as a leader and not just as a terrorist/freedom fighter. He's constantly lookig to stick it to The Man, whoever The Man is at the time - at the end of season 1, The Man was Adama so he helped Roslin escape. Then on Kobol he was able to sense that things were changing far sooner than his henchman was, and therefore avoid being entangled in his actions. Later Roslin became The Man, and so he sought to help Baltar become elected. We don't quite know how events took their course on New Caprica but one year later, Baltar's now The Man (or rather The Man's stooge) and Zarek's a dissident again. As soon as he became President he couldn't wait to abdicate in Roslin's favour. His whole complicity in the actions of The Circle were probably enough to persuade him to keep his head down for a while. And when Roslin was missing, he found his path to the Presidency to be wide open - but was thwarted again by the Adamas.
So, in a sense, Zarek is following his tradition of sticking it to The Man, but combined with what could be a personal vendetta against William Adama and a feeling that now finally he's ready to lead for real rather than working behind the scenes. No doubt events will show he's probably stuck his neck out a little to far this time. . .
Anyway. His image: Zarek knows he's done a lot of work behind the scenes, a lot of it questionable at best and open to a much worse interpretation. He stands to lose his rebel image and just be exposed as an arch manipulator who's all too happy to work within the system. He had to back down.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
My first thought on the last scene: "About damn time!" My wife's second thought: "EW! Old people!"
The only thing that bothered me about this episode was the retcon of Callie's fling with Hotdog. I'm fairly sure the writers came up with Tyrol being a Cylon after they had already written in the baby, so this just seems like a messy clean-up to me. I know they needed to fix things so that Hera is the only "special" child, but it just seems so out-of-character for Callie.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Zarek caved because he's a consummate politician; all his preaching about political idealism, about the responsibility of government, and more, is simply to get the people riled up and supporting some cause or another that disrupts the current administration. That's what he (apparently) did way back on Sagittaron, that's what he did with the uprising on the Astral Queen, that's what he did on Colonial Day, that's what he did leading the breakaway fleet to Kobol, that's what he did to force the settlement issue on New Caprica. He's almost a one-trick pony, except his trick is a real good one. He's got the legend of being a champion, for better or worse.
What Adama was threatening was to destroy that legend. Zarek might not have known whether or not Adama was bluffing, but I'll bet that Zarek's been up to a few things that could have been in that file packet. And that was probably enough to make him cave.
I really didn't see that thing with Baby Nicky coming, though.
quote:Did Hotdog get that rash way back when from Cally?
I thought so, at first. But then I went and looked up the reference, which is from "A Day in the Life." That's way after the whole New Caprica thing.
quote:Revealing that Tyrol's not Nicky's father nicely frees up Hera as the only hybrid. Having two hybrids was always a bit of an issue before, after Six had bigged up Hera's significance.
See, I kinda think it's the other way around. Yes, Number Six was referring to Hera as "the face of things to come," but there are some big parallels to having two kids rather than one. It would make more sense, procreation-wise, if there's one female hybrid and one male hybrid. Unless Six and Saul's kid is somehow going to be considered a hybrid. ('Cause we still don't know how different the Five are...)
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Y'know I was surprised at Tyrol taking on the role of Ambassador between the colonials and the cylons. I never expected him to do it. Also I assume he still doesn't know that his wife was killed.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
"Never trust a Cylon." Y'know, how do we know the Cylons on Earth didn't nuke themselves?
Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :
An earlier Cylon civil war, perhaps?
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Well, either they nuked themselves, or the humans who used to live on Earth nuked them. If humans ever did live on Earth. Which wasn't really clear.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Mercifully, my parents live the other side of the country, so I don't have to explain it all to them as they watch. Unfortunately this means I then have to explain it to my dad who then has to explain it to my mum.
I didn't get much headway on explaining that Ellem Tigh could reappear, because if the Five had been previously (and maybe repeatedly, given the long passage of time) resurrected, and not using a Resurrection Ship or Hub, then they must have some other method of doing so and that might still exist. And it may even have been used to bring back Starbuck as well.
On the subject of Earth, I did a little better. I was able to boil it down to two scenarios:
1. "Earth is the 13th (and Cylon) Colony." Humanity evolved on Kobol, created Cylons, a schism happened, humanity went to the 12 Colonies, the Cylons to Earth, eventually Earth was devastated either in a war with humans or just among Cylons. Of course, the initial war might have been between Kobol and Earth, and after both were devastated, then the 12 Colonies were formed.
2. "Earth is Earth." Humanity evolved on Earth, created Cylons, schism happened, humanity left for Kobol, Cylons remained behind. Then both planets devastated in war, Cylons almost exterminated, surviving humans found 12 Colonies.
The BSG Wiki page seems to favour option 1. I suspect however that somehow the BSG universe will end up getting tied to our reality in the end, so perhaps the mythology goes deeper, perhaps Kobol is not the birthplace of humanity but just a stepping-stone from another planet. Perhaps the 13th tribe didn't go out to find a new world, but a much older one.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I agree; I've kinda assumed from the very beginning that the second scenario is where the writers are heading. And I've always liked the far-future stories where Earth is nothing but a nearly-forgotten myth (like Dune and Asimov's series).
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Johnny:
Adama's taking a lot of pills. A second "dying leader" candidate?
Could be. The whole episode I kept thinking "maybe the prophecies didn't fail you. Maybe you just interpreted them wrong.
Same with Baltar's turning against the Cylon God. 1. They ASSUME God was leading them and that he lead them down the wrong path and needs to apologize. 2. They ASSUME they haven't committed any sins and aren't being punished. That was the whole premise in the Mini, wasn't it? Cylons were punishing humanity for their sins. 3. They ASSUME God was leading them directly to paradise and that their journey was over. Obviously the journey hasn't finished yet. Instead of being humble and patient, they've grown tired and irritated that the humans in charge must have mislead them intentionally.
quote:Did we have any evidence of him tampering with the votes to 'buy' the Vice Presidency? I'm not sure I like the idea, as it clearly puts Adama on the moral high ground, whereas I liked it if they had equal rights to 'existence'. Zarek seemed to work fine as just a populist leader with typical anti-government ideas.
I don't remember. Wasn't Gaeta involved with the tampering plot when Baltar was elected President?
quote:Did anyone else find it quite shocking that Adama gave the order to arrest (with deadly force!) the Vice President? Adama having that classified file on him made it more reasonable, but he must've lost a lot of credit with the Quorum by arresting the VP.
YES! Completely the wrong decisions being made. Adama was proving Zarek correct. An oppressive government using force to coerce the civilian population. Adama was crossing the line between head of the military and a dictator.
Since it turned out the file was a ruse, then it definitely wasn't a reasonable act.
quote:Did I understand correctly that Tyrol is acting, or wants to act, as something of a leader of the fleet Cylons? It would fit his previous stint as union leader or resistance leader.
Not completely out of character. Wasn't Tyrol the leader or liaison of the striking Tylium workers way back when? His actions this episode could likewise be viewed as liaison between the basestar and the fleet.
quote:All in all, a lot of realigning happens in this episode. Adama and Roslin appear to be losing interest in leading the fleet, Zarek and Gaeta are forming an anti-Cylon faction, Baltar's cult has apparently denounced the Cylon religion, and Tyrol is attempting to forge a Cylon-Colonial union. Once more, any attempts to speculate on the future of the series seems impossible...
A lot of wrong decisions in this episode and perhaps the whole series. I've always thought keeping the Colonial government structure was wrong. Instead of 12 Colonies the fleet has hundreds of ships each with different needs and priorities. The population ratio of survivors may not be the same as the population ratio of the original 12 colonies.
Lee is a poor politician. He can't play the game. He could have met Zarek head on or gone around him or made any other type of decision. Instead he was never depicted as doing anything to try to win the confidence of the Quorum or the citizens and sway them to his point of view.
Sending Athena in the Raptor was a bad decision. The ship is already mutinying because of Cylons on board, why send ANOTHER Cylon to help take it back?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I kinda agree about keeping the government structure being a bad idea, but what's the alternative? Negotiating an entirely new government structure? The fleet has never been in a position to do that.
The whole point of Galactica's story (the show, that is) has been how people react when the old ways no longer work. Sometimes people pull together pretty well. Sometimes they make asinine decisions.
For Adama, his justification to the fleet is simply this: what else are you suckers going to do? Personally, I thought that the idea of the tylium ship leaving the fleet was one of the stupidest things I've ever seen people do in this show. Where were they going to go? How were they going to survive on their own? It's obvious that the fact that it was the tylium ship and not, say, the Zephyr, was deliberately chosen to exacerbate the situation. Chosen by... Zarek, most likely!
As far as Baltar and the rest of the people go, Yeah, I agree. But then think about how many times the Hebrews complained during their Exodus. I think the difference is that in the fleet, Earth was unequivocally promised by both the prophecies and by Adama/Roslin as the be-all, end-all promised land. Once they get there, there's absolutely nothing left to support faith. There's no clues as to any misinterpretation, and sufficient evidence that the prophecies were still correct. (Until a future episode when we get another piece of the puzzle, of course.)
Also, re: Gaeta in the election fixing, he was the one who discovered and reported it; he wasn't involved in perpetrating it.
On a completely unrelated note, I've got a couple of questions concerning Caprica Six. First, do any of the Humans know exactly who she is? I don't recall if it was ever explicitly mentioned. Second, if Six is carrying Tigh's child, what the frak happened to her pining for Baltar?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I think it's just meant to be assumed they've grown apart - it's been, what, three or four years since they had a brief but torrid affair culminating with her getting hit in the face with a nuclear explosion. The fact they both appear to have hallucinatory versions of each other talking to them in their heads probably didn't help; both Head-characters displayed significant deviations in character and attitude to the real person(s) which, coming over time and by familiarity to be seen as the norm, would probably leave them both feeling like they don't really connect with each other (not that they've really had an opportunity to connect with each other since New Caprica, what with her in the SuperMax Brig and him either in the Brig or with his harem).