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[QUOTE]Originally posted by The First One: [QB] Well, Sol and I discussed this via ICQ, and he had this misconception that this was [i]Voyager's[/i] first mission. I don't think so, because there had to have been time for Tuvok to ge to know the ship and the crew before he went off to infiltrate the Maquis. Sure, he knew Janeway before, and she knew he could do such a job, but he couldn't have just waltzed in and taken the Tactical/Second Officer position off the bat. Plus, why would they offload the science crew for a simple police action in the Badlands? If there was a science team they didn't take, they'd have had to - but since the whole point of the [i]Intrepid[/i] class was that it had the kind of tech to help it operate in places like the Badlands, wouldn't it be the perfect opportunity to take along a team to study local conditions and see how the ship stood up? Troi's rank is incidental. She was a Lt. Cdr. long before she was even qualified to stand a Bridge watch. And Crusher has always outranked Data - and she IS a Bridge officer and has been from the start - I think. I believe there might be a line of dialogue in the ep where Troi takes the test that clarifies this. The Second Officer doesn't have much to do, normally - except act as Exec when the First Officer is in command. But they've always treated this very loosely, and it sucks. In BOBW, Riker gives Worf an equal shot at becoming SO, before discounting them both in favour of Shelby. "Gambit" is a fave of mine purely because you see Data in command with Worf - who's given the place of Exec rather than Troi, note - as Exec. Very rarely do we see Tuvok as Exec, either. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,27,13,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 27, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Command Strusture, Rank and Starship Mission Designation<p><b>Part I: Data</b><p><i>USS Enterprise</i>, NCC-1701, crew 430<p>Commanding Officer: Captain<br>Executive Officer: Lieutenant Commander, later Commander [later Captain] (<i>also</i> Science Officer)<br>Second Officer: <i>not specified</i> - Lt. Cdr. Scott? Lt. Cdr. Gary Mitchell? <br>Chief Engineer: Lieutenant Commander, later Commander [later Captain]<br>Chief Medical Officer: Lieutenant Commander, later Commander<br>Conn Officer: Lieutenant, later Lieutenant Commander, later Commander [maybe even Captain!] (<i>also</i> Tac Officer)<br>Nav Officer: Ensign, later Lieutenant, later Lieutenant Commander, later Commander (<i>also</i> Tac Officer)<br>Comms Officer: Lieutanant, later Lieutanant Commander, later Commander<br>Tac Officer: <i>not specified</i> - Lt. Cdr. Giotto in Security?<p><i>Note: I included the later ranks in square brackets to sdet them apart, since the advancing age and seniority of the crew became increasingly unlikely, as indeed is the TNG crew now. . .</i><p><i>USS Enterprise</i>, NCC-1701-D (& -E), crew 1014 (& ?)<p>Commanding Officer: Captain<br>Executive Officer: Commander [also a Captain, theoretically]<br>Second Officer: Lieutenant Commander (<i>also</i> Operations Officer)<br>Chief Engineer: Lieutenant, later Lieutenant Commander (other Lt. Cdr.'s also seen)<br>Chief Medical Officer: Commander<br>Ship's Counselor: Lieutenant Commander, later Commander<br>Helmsman: Ensigns, various Ensigns-of-the-week, Lieutenant J.G.'s, Lieutenants<br>Nav Officer: NONE (amalgamated with Conn)<br>Comms Officer: NONE (Riker/Troi internal comms, Worf external. . .)<br>Tac Officer: Lieutenants, one later Lieutanant Commander<p><i>USS Voyager</i>, NCC-74656, crew c. 155 (now 135-140)<p>Commanding Officer: Captain<br>Executive Officer: Lieutenant Commander (as was the original, Cavit)<br>Second Officer: Lieutenant, later Lieutenant Commander (<i>also</i> Tac Officer)<br>Chief Engineer: Lieutenant (J.G.? Original not known)<br>Chief Medical Officer: Lieutenant Commander (originally; now no rank)<br>Ship's Counselor: NONE (made clear from start)<br>Helmsman: Lieutenant J.G., later Ensign (was Stadi a Lt. or J.G.?)<br>Ops Officer: Ensign<p><i>Note: I considered including the </i>Defiant<i>, but since it was added later and has a bizarre command structure that includes the Science Officer (the return of this term, and the assigning of Operations Officer to both the Chief Engineer - aka Chief of Operations - and even the Strategic Operations Officer!) as helmsman, and a Bridge crew that has included members of the Bajoran Defense Forces AND the Obsidian Order, Founders, and Ferengi Starfleet Cadets!</i><p><br><b>Part II: Discussion</b><p>1. <i>Executive Officers:</i>: The rank held here seems to largely depend on the size of the ship. Spock WAS initially a Lt. Cdr., but that might have been down to error by the costume department, since I don't think he was ever called that; at times, in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" it's almost implied that Gary Mitchell, of equal rank, is the exec. . . Two <i>Miranda</i>-class ships - the <i>Reliant</i> and the <i>Saratoga</i> had Lt. Cdr.'s as Execs, as does the <i>Voyager</i>. I think that whenever possible the Commanding Officer is always a Captain, while the Exec's rank depends on the size of the departments and the ranks of their Department Heads, all of whom report to him.<p>This is where I start to think that the science staff complement and their ranks gives a clear indication of what that ship's overall mission is. . .<p>2. Despite being seen now as overtly militaristic, I believe <b>The Original Series</b> depicted the mission of the <i>Enterprise</i> as being mainly peaceful exploration, albeit an expedition loaded for bear! No prominent Security Officer, Tactical duties shared between Conn & Nav, and the Second-in-Command is the Science Officer! Plus, they have a Comms Officer whose role it is to warn the crew of changes in alert status and receive reports from Departments, something that Riker would be seen doing in TNG (while Worf would handle external Comms).<p>3. In <b>The Next Generation</b>, the sheer amount of science being carried out makes the job of a Science Officer almost an absurdity. Instead the Exec, Ops Officer, Engineer and Cheif Doctor all assist in coordinating the ship's research, with the Captain, Tac Officer and Counselor lending a hand (yes, and there was The Boy. . .). Their continuing refusal to even consider that the ship's Head of Ops/Second Officer, plus the rise in rank of almost everyone else, makes the whole thing increasingly ridiculous, however.<p>4. On <i>Voyager</i>, the situation changes dramatically. VERY few scientific staff, the Ops Officer is a mere Ensign, while instead the Tactical Officer is a Lieutenant Commander (and given the early mixup over insignia, maybe should have been one from the start) AND the Second Officer. The Astrometrics Lab is in disuse until Seven of Nine comes along. <i>Voyager</i> is not a scientific ship.<p>Two more points I'd like to make:<p>5. As time goes on, I wonder more and more exactly how powerful the <i>Sovereign</i>-class starship is meant to be. Sure, we haven't seen families on board, but these days I doubt many Starfleet vessels take that risk. Plus, there is the assigning of a command crew with a clear scientific background, so much so that they complain bout the sheer amount of diplomatic work they undertake - and no-one wonders why they aren't in the thick of the Dominion War! Then there's First Contact: their surprise at not being included in the Typhon Sector fleet is as much their proximity to the marshalling point, and their experience in fighting the Borg, as in their belief that their ship is so powerful it makes a natural addition to the fleet.<p>Last one. . .<p>6. Many of the senior command staff, by which I mean Captains and Execs, have a certain background which has characterised their time in Starfleet prior to attainig high rank. Picard was a scientist initially (and might have stayed that way, as in "Tapestry") and always takes an interest in his ship's research; Riker was once in Operations (gold tunic in "Second Chances") and is often sent down to help in Engineering. Sisko's background is less clear, but after Wolf 359 he is sent first to a shipyards, then to a decrepit space station - is he an engineer? Lastly, Janeway, who we KNOW was a Science Officer, takes an according interest. . . yet, in times of crisis, she's more likely to go down to Engineering to help, leaving Chakotay (who seems to have been a rising star in Starfleet, probably with a pure Command background) on the Bridge. . . with more interest in science and engineering, how did she end up commanding a small warship?!<p>So, go figure. . . much of this we already knew, but I thought I'd take a fresh look at it. Just goes to show that TNG was actually quite well thought out, as was DS9, in terms of the characters. . . but Voyager wasn't! It's harder to spot any such themes in TOS, but I hope that what I've said will make those of you who don't rate Classic Trek give it another look. <br><P>------------------<BR>"I am greater than the stars for I know that they are up there and they do not know that I am down here." - William Temple <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,27,15,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 27, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:45 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Fascinating.<p>A few comments. Voyager's original mission to track down and arrest members of the Maquis explains the lack of science crew. However, due to their location in the Badlands, you might want a commanding officer with a fair bit of knowledge about esoteric spatial activity.<p>Regarding the Sovereign class, I agree that we don't know much about it. It performed well against the Borg, but that only lasted a few minutes, and much of that was due to the Enterprise's crew rather then the ship itself. The ship gets rather battered in Insurrection, though.<P>------------------<BR>"The record of my unspeakable crimes, in previous lives, in previous times, indelibly stains the pages of history."<br>--<br>They Might Be Giants<br> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>grb</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,27,21,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 27, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:49 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> isn;t commander troi now the second officer of the enterprise-e? she outranks data....shes seems a much better choice then an operations officer, who should probably serve at the ops station since they are the most experienced one for there.<P>------------------<BR>"How many people does it<br>take before it becomes<br>wrong? 6,000? 60,000?<br>How many people does it<br>take admiral!?!" -Ambassador<br>Picard during his command<br>of the Enterprise-E in the<br>Ba'ku incident.<p><br> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cargile</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,28,0,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 28, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:54 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Troi's professional field is Psychology, Data's is--I suppose--General Science/Management. Regardless of her rank, Troi should not be the Operations Manager anymore than Data should give people his advise with their problems.<p><br>Other stuff:<br>Strategic Operations Officer. Isn't that the Commanding Officer?<p>Nice work First One.<P>------------------<BR>The real problem with the United States of America is that is was founded by Europeans, Asians, and Africans.<p><br> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,28,12,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 28, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, Sol and I discussed this via ICQ, and he had this misconception that this was <i>Voyager's</i> first mission. I don't think so, because there had to have been time for Tuvok to ge to know the ship and the crew before he went off to infiltrate the Maquis. Sure, he knew Janeway before, and she knew he could do such a job, but he couldn't have just waltzed in and taken the Tactical/Second Officer position off the bat.<p>Plus, why would they offload the science crew for a simple police action in the Badlands? If there was a science team they didn't take, they'd have had to - but since the whole point of the <i>Intrepid</i> class was that it had the kind of tech to help it operate in places like the Badlands, wouldn't it be the perfect opportunity to take along a team to study local conditions and see how the ship stood up?<p>Troi's rank is incidental. She was a Lt. Cdr. long before she was even qualified to stand a Bridge watch. And Crusher has always outranked Data - and she IS a Bridge officer and has been from the start - I think. I believe there might be a line of dialogue in the ep where Troi takes the test that clarifies this.<p>The Second Officer doesn't have much to do, normally - except act as Exec when the First Officer is in command. But they've always treated this very loosely, and it sucks. In BOBW, Riker gives Worf an equal shot at becoming SO, before discounting them both in favour of Shelby. "Gambit" is a fave of mine purely because you see Data in command with Worf - who's given the place of Exec rather than Troi, note - as Exec. Very rarely do we see Tuvok as Exec, either.<P>------------------<BR>"I am greater than the stars for I know that they are up there and they do not know that I am down here." - William Temple <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Daryus Aden</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,28,20,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 28, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:45 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Admiral Leyton stated that Sisko had been interested in Starship design before he made him a commander, so it's safe to assume he's an engineer.<br><P>------------------<BR>I drink therefore I am.<p>-Descartes<br> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Shadow</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,28,23,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 28, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Didn't Sisko work at Utopia Planitia also?<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://frankg.dgne.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://frankg.dgne.com/</A> <br>Vortex: "It just don't pack the punch it used to..."<br>Swindle: "Yeah, because we're out of energy, dummy." <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,29,8,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 29, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:05 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yes, that's what I said - "after Wolf 35 he was sent to a shipyards. . ." 8)<p>Good one, Daryus - I'd forgotten that. . .<P>------------------<BR>"I am greater than the stars for I know that they are up there and they do not know that I am down here." - William Temple <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,2,30,20,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 30, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:50 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Just a couple of points:<p>Since Scotty took part in the self-destruct sequence in Let That be your Last Battlefield and Trek III, it does seem to indicate that he was second officer. At least at that time<p>Spock was referred to as Lt Commander in Court Martial. But I always thought that he had commander's stripes.<p>In Conspiracy, Riker says 'Science officer' to Quinn. I assume he's talking about Data, since Quinn says '[the parasities] won't like your science officer', presumably because they wouldn't be able to infect an android. So that makes Data science officer, according to Will anyway.<br><p><small>[This message was edited by PsyLiam on March 30, 1999.]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,3,1,7,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">April 01, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:16 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Interesting. Spock certainly DID have Lt. Cdr. stripes in the first season of TOS. . . as for Data as Science Officer, he's certainly the most likely choice, but it might not be an altogether 'official' title - his ability to multitask and know exactly what is going on in every department makes him useful, as it did Spock. . . do we think others we know to have been SO's - Chekov, Jadzia Dax, Janeway - could keep track as well as them?<P>------------------<BR>"I am greater than the stars for I know that they are up there and they do not know that I am down here." - William Temple <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The Excalibur</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,3,1,10,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">April 01, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:07 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Dax would be good, but I don't think it could keep up with Data or Spock. The non-canon books give Chekov more credit then the series or movies, but he's not in that leauge.<P>------------------<BR><b>Parallax</b><p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Federation Shipmaster</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,3,1,16,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">April 01, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Crusher is a bridge officer.<br>So what if Spock was Lt. Cmdr. and first officer? In the U.S. Navy, many first officers are Lt. Commanders.<P>------------------<BR>What bloke invented signatures? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The First One</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,3,1,18,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">April 01, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:06 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So nothing. The point is, it's never certain whether he was meant to be one or not. Mistake hurriedly and quietly rectified, or an unmentioned promotion? We'll never know. . . <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Federation Shipmaster</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,3,1,22,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">April 01, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:20 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It was the 60s, what do you expect?<P>------------------<BR>What bloke invented signatures? <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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