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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Raw Cadet: [qb]I will try to respond to you, Ryan McReynolds, with my knowledge of the Roman Catholic Church, in which I am fairly well versed, and with my information on other religions. Please note that if this post comes across as inflammatory, that was not my intention. I would not spend an hour putting this together if I did not respect the respondent.[/qb] [/QUOTE] Thank you, and please, call me Ryan. Just for background, I was raised Catholic, started questinging around junior high, and officially "came out" as an atheist at the end of high school. [QUOTE] [qb] As you clearly stated, you are not implying that (most) religions have a vast underground conspiracy to keep people ignorant. But what exactly are you implying? I hope you would grant that if you asked most religious clergy, clerics, educators, etc. if they are keeping people ignorant they would honestly answer no (even if they are, in your opinion; they do not consider it ignorance). If one grants that a higher power exists (as these religious do), what is ignorant and illogical to one might be inspired and sensible to another.[/QUOTE] [/qb] Of course. And that is exactly what I meant to imply. Religion's negative influence is not the result of individuals, it is a result of the existence of religion itself. That's why I specified it as a [i]tradition[/i] of ignorance rather than a more clear-cut conspiracy. [QUOTE] [qb]Unfortunately, that was true, but many of your current beefs are off base. The Catholic Church states that the theory of evolution is not in conflict with Church doctrine (provided, of course, you grant that the big guy upstairs started it all ). I do not know what other religions have to say about this. As for the "soul," I doubt you could find a legitimate contemporary Catholic cleric, or one of any denomination, for that matter, who would say it is a discoverable region. The mind is a complex and fascinating component of humanity, and (most) religions encourage its scientific study.[/qb] [/QUOTE] I was not speaking specifically about Catholicism. I know that the Church doesn't have a problem with evolution (and many other ideas), but many Protestant denominations do, and Islam does. It is the evangelical religious right (in the United States) that has taken the role that the Catholic Church held in centuries past. Religion as a whole continually plays a game of back-stepping to change its doctrines in light of new discoveries... if it didn't exist, there would be no need to bother. With regard specifically to the mind and/or soul, the problem is simply one of faith. Personally, and I fully grant that this is a personal choice, I believe that no belief is justified without evidence. It doesn't have to be proven in any definitive way, but I always go with what has the most support at any given time. There is increasing evidence that the mind can be explained in physical terms. There is no evidence that a non-physical soul exists. If one day [i]soul[/i] is redefined to mean simply "mind," then I would have no problem affirming its existence. [QUOTE] [qb]You are undoubtedly referring to the Catholic Church's stance against artificial birth control. Yes, the Church is against it. No, the Church is not in charge of condom distribution in Africa; I wonder where you got the idea it prevents people from protecting themselves. By the way, I believe most other religions allow artificial birth control, so your "religion . . . " claim is a bit broad and unfair.[/qb] [/QUOTE] Yes, it is broad, and intentionally so. My point is not that group-x does this and group-y does that. I merely chose random examples. My point is that religious thinking, of all kinds, can lead to problems. As soon as you think you have a source of authority other than the use of rational thought, you open the door to irrationality. No, religion doesn't control the distribution of condoms, but it does play a role in influencing people into accepting or rejecting them. If somebody is convinced by somebody they consider an authority that birth control of any sort is immoral, then it doesn't matter how many condoms they are given. [QUOTE] [qb]Africans are being ravaged by many things, however, and the Church has devoted many resources to combatting hunger, human rights abuses, and lack of education, among other things. Meanwhile, the United States sits back and allows racial genocide to go unchecked, costing millions of lives.[/qb] [/QUOTE] No need to mention the United States foreign policy; most of my complaints about religion apply to present governments as well. :) [QUOTE] [qb]I am not quite sure what you are referring to. There are stories of parents withholding medical treatment from their children for "religious reasons," but I can assure you no Catholic (or Hindu, or Jew, etc.) approves of such a decision. Also, anyone who lives in a major city probably knows of at least one professional, scientific hospital run by a religious organization.[/qb] [/QUOTE] Yes, naturally. I was speaking of the large-scale (usually Charismatic) revival healings in which the pastor puts his hands on heads and says "be cured" and people fall over. :) I was speaking of the mass healings of the 700 Club, and the like. I have no fault with religious organizations running hospitals... but the point is that these things could be run just as well without religion, while "faith healing" requires it. If religion disappeared today, we'd still have hospitals; the difference is that the people who were wasting their time with Benny Hinn could get real treatment instead. [QUOTE] [qb]Just as no religion has control over the African condom supply, no religion can control how and when you die. John Ashcroft is trying to force people to die horribly; John Paul II, though he disapproves of suicide, cannot stop you.[/qb] [/QUOTE] Right. But why do most people (and I am definitely using the qualifier "most" here) reject "death with dignity?" Because of the commandment that condemns killing. Suicide is one thing, but [i]assisted[/i] suicide is another entirely. While I'm sure anyone would agree that there should be safeguards against someone getting depressed and acting rashly, it seems that a fundamental right to any person is the right to choose whether or not to exist. Religion attempts to deny that right, not through direct control, but through the control of moral standards. [QUOTE] [qb]Once again, religion has no direct control over this matter. I am sure Vatican Cardinals were having coronaries over the news that a human had been cloned. Do you not think they would have stopped it if they could?[/qb] [/QUOTE] Nowhere in my post did I suggest that religion [i]directly[/i] does anything. However, religious ideas about souls are overwhelmingly influential in the opposition to stemp cell research, abortion, and cloning. Again, if religion disappeared today, there would be no debate over souls. People might object to these things for different reasons, but they would have to be testable, investigatable reasons rather than "God says no." Or take a look at evolution. The pressure from the religious right is powerful enough that over half of all public-school biology teachers don't even mention it at all. Nevermind that evolution is the basis of modern biology, integral to nearly every single thing we know about life on our planet. Are you saying that religion [i]isn't[/i] responsible for this omission simply because they don't ahve direct authority over the curriculum? No, the Vatican Cardinals can't stop cloning from happening. But they can tell people that it is wrong. They can erode public support. Religious leaders of all affiliations are quite possibly the most powerful people on the planet, above any government. My girlfriend, a former fundamentalist, used to think that any clones wouldn't have souls. Can you imagine the abuse and mistreatment that would befall a cloned child if nobody thought it had a soul? [QUOTE] [qb]The main problem with each of your claims, as I pointed out above, is that they hold religion responsible for things it has little control over. It also shows an ignorance of a very important aspect of my religion. In the papal encyclical "Humanae Vitae," released by Pope Paul VI, it is stated that the morality of decisions are ultimately determined by a well developed conscience, not dogma. Thus, if in good, well developed conscience one can use a condom during sex, commit Euthenasia, and destroy embryos to advance medical science, then one may do so and still "face God on 'Judgement Day' with a 'clear conscience."[/qb] [/QUOTE] Catholicism, while the largest specific religious group, it not the only group. Despite the fact that many Baptists, for instance, believe that belief in Jesus is the [i]only[/i] thing required for salvation, they are still by far the most vocal group against what they call "immorality." It's an irony. I am often asked, as an atheist, "If there is no God, can't you do anything you want?" If there is a God that forgives any sin, then it is the religious who can do whatever [i]they[/i] want! I also find myself asking them, "If you found out God didn't exist tomorrow, would you go around murdering and raping since there aren't any eternal consequences? No? Then why would I?" :) [QUOTE] [qb]Oh, come on. Prayer can be used as a form of meditation or relaxation. Are you "against" meditation?[/qb] [/QUOTE] No. If someone needs to relax, they can do whatever they want, even pray. But I honestly believe that the time spent praying, or attending church service, could be better spent on other things. What if everyone took an hour every Sunday to read a classic work of literature, or the writings of philosophers, or a science book? [QUOTE] [qb]As for "the tithe" (Catholics stopped tithing a long time ago; I think Mormons still do), where do you think the money goes? The various religions of the world feed millions, and contribute invaluable information through the research at religious institutions, with the funds they receive.[/qb] [/QUOTE] They also build churches, cathedrals, mosques, and temples. That's probably a drop in the bucket, but it is still a waste of money from an atheist's point of view. And again, as with the hospital remark above, what if religion disappeared? There would still be charity, people could still feed the hungry. All of that money could skip the middle man and do all of the same things. Religion isn't required for those things... it's only required for churches and people to fill them. Also, let me specify that I was using poetic license with the "tithe" part. I was referring to all financial contributions to churches and religious groups. [QUOTE] [qb]P.S. Forgive me if I was patronizing at any point; as I said, that was not my intention. [/qb][/QUOTE] I don't think so at all. I'm an atheist, I find myself discussing this stuff on a daily basis. :) [/QB][/QUOTE]
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