posted
Tolkien was also not much for writing women, let alone strong women. And I didn't mean feature her in the Rivendell scenes -- just have her in the background somewhere as Elrond welcomes the company to the valley.
And I would so hope they do Orcrist and Glamdring right this time. All the Gondolin blades were supposed to glow in the presence of orcs. Not just Sting.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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Well...but Liv in battle armor...I'd pay to see *that* at any rate...
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It's interesting with Elrond and Elros. I mean Elrond and his family obviously get a choice to stay Elven or lead the life of mortal Man. I gather that didn't happen for Elros' descendents. Once it was decided he would die a man - it was if the rest of his descendents were locked into that... race.
Elrond's children still had a choice as well.
Aragorn and Arwen are very very distantly related. Much more distant though than Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip are (both 2nd and 3rd Cousins through Queen Victoria).
Also what is very interesting is that Arwen's ancestory is a complete melting pot of some of the most powerful figures in Middle Earth's history and includes Elf, Man AND Maiar. Her Elven ancestory includes descendents from the three houses of the Elves (Noldor, Vanyar and Teleri) as well as the three houses of Man (Hador, Haleth and Beor).
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Tolkien was also not much for writing women, let alone strong women. And I didn't mean feature her in the Rivendell scenes -- just have her in the background somewhere as Elrond welcomes the company to the valley.
And I would so hope they do Orcrist and Glamdring right this time. All the Gondolin blades were supposed to glow in the presence of orcs. Not just Sting.
--Jonah
It would certainly be nice to have her there, however it means hiring Liv Tyler for what would effectively be a non-speaking cameo, so it's doubtful. However, if the rumours about the second movie being about the white council and Aragorn's earlier life are true then it becomes rather more possible they'll have Liv back for a more significant part and film some footage for Rivendell while they have her.
As far as Orcrist and Glamdring go, I think the reason they didn't make Gandalf's sword glow in LoTR was so as to not confuse people who hadn't read the books (which at the time, included me) but for The Hobbit I don't see why they wouldn't have it glow.
Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
Member # 1689
posted
Aragorn is of the Dunedain (scuse, btw, the lack of proper accents - don't have the proper layout on this computer), which were the descendants of the remains of the Numenorians, is that correct? And Gondor is one of the kingdoms founded by the refugees from the fallen Numenor, also correct? So why is it that the Dunedain retained the Numenorian long life, but the Gondorian Men didn't?
The relation between Arwen and Aragorn, then, would be so distant it'd be like how anyone from, say, Germany is related to anyone else from Germany if you go back far enough, right?
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posted
The Dunedain chieftains were pretty much an unbroken Numenorean line, but many of the other Dunedain, and most of the Gondorians, had been interbreeding with the lesser races of Men for the past Age or more, and so had lost the long life of their forebears.
Additional: A note on consanguinity. You and your first cousin have enough genetic drift that -- provided you have no markers for congenital defects -- you are, genetically-speaking, as perfectly suited as a couple as anyone more distantly related. The consanguinity tabu only came about in medi�val Europe when the nobility realized that the peasants needed to be kept from consolidating family wealth and holdings the way they had been doing, and had the Church make it a no-no to marry your coisin (even though those nobles kept right on doing just that). It's taken a while to shake off the dogma in this country, but where in 47 states it was illegal to marry one's first cousin a decade ago, that number has dropped to 14 states. Which is nice, because I have some pretty hot cousins...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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See? This is the kind of ignorant twaddle I'm talking about. Way to think for yourselves, guys.
ANYway... The only decision from Jackson and Walsh for LotR that I disagreed with was the notion that the audience would be confused if both Sting and Glamdring glowed. A single line from Gandalf to Frodo in Moria, maybe, saying that Glamdring was made by the same people for the same reason as Sting, and problem solved. I dunno. Not my job, and I'm not about to tackle rewriting them, when that's a relatively minor gripe.
One other perk of the Hobbit movies is seeing the three trolls before they were turned to stone.
And have we thought of creative casting for the rest of the major roles? Bard, Thorin, Thranduil...?
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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quote:See? This is the kind of ignorant twaddle I'm talking about. Way to think for yourselves, guys. [Razz]
Mate...genetics doesn't even come into it. Having sex with any relative is just creepy and trying to justify it by citing genetic compatibility is just...well...troubled.
I have a step niece who is only 5 years younger than me, is legally an adult (in the UK anyway) and despite being completely unrelated to me by blood it is in no way ok to consider her a viable sexual partner. I don't care if it's legal or not, if it's medically safe or what the various religions have to say about it, she's family and it's just not right. But if you're just talking hypothetically about imaginary elves, then fine, interbreed away.
As far as casing goes, the dwarves will probably be made up of local New Zealand actors like they did with allot of the elves and presumably the non-Gimli Dwarves we caught a glimpse of.
posted
My point, Rev, is that that "creepiness" is an artifact of the last few hundred years of Western European culture alone, and not even all of that. The upper class knew they made it up to keep the peasants in line, and have happily ignored it. The only people on th eplanet for whom it's creepy are those who come from a tradition of adhering to the precepts of the Catholic Church and its decendents on secular matters (i.e., those decended from the middle and lower classes in the Middle Ages). It's important to examine all of our beliefs from time to time, especially the ones we don't think to question.
But it's okay that you can't think of your step-neice in those terms (that's a closer degree of relationship than cousins, though, and genetically dodgy). I don't like the thought of eating grasshoppers, even though there are lots of cultures where it's perfectly ordinary.
*track change*
Only problem with that is that most of the party were at least mildly significant characters and would warrant casting probably on the level of Merry and Pippin and Samwise. Not necessarily local talent. But also not excluding local talent.
I do think Brian Blessed would be great as Beorn, though.
For the Dwarves, appearance almost doesn't matter, so maybe we should look to the pool of voice actors. John Rhys-Davis sort of straddles that line himself... Have I seen anyone suggest Geoffrey Rush as Thorin? I think he's got a good face for it, as well as his voice.
And for some reason I have no trouble seeing/hearing Patrick Warburton as Bard. o_O *lol*
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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I've got to agree with Peregrinus. I mean, how many people in here would be OK with having more than one wife? Why not? Sexist, wrong, can't love them all, etc? But it's perfectly normal in certain cultures. Doesn't make either one right or wrong, just *different.* What you grow up with in your culture shapes your own feelings towards things, and bollocks to logic about it, after that - you just have your inborn emotional reactions and taboos.
(And specifically, cousins aren't nearly as close as nieces in terms of family, at least not in my family, or any of my friends' families. There's a whole different dynamic there. And many people in this country have married their cousins, and as Peregrinus pointed out, the royal and noble families are *still* doing it. Go on, tell an Englishman his queen is a disgusting pervert )
Casting bits - I've forgotten the name of the king of the Mirkwood elves, but I think that's another role to be very careful about casting. Keep the sort of Elven Look the way it was in LotR.
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Multiple partners is a whole different kettle of fish, more in line with sexual orientation. That is, it's a spectrum. Some people default monogamous. Others the exact opposite. Many somewhere in between. The cousin thing is purely learned behaviour/attitude. There is an animal instinct to not breed with first- or second-degree relations (siblings, parent/child, uncle/niece, gramdparant/grandchild, etc.) that stems entirely from being programmed for genetic diversity. Some human cultures have overridden this, but it isn't the norm for good reason. Trying to codify it in moral and secular laws in a human quirk, though. I think we're getting closer to the point where such laws and moral restrictions will be obsolete, but we're still a ways off.
*track change*
Thranduil was the Wood-Elf king, Legolas' dad. He was voiced by Otto Preminger in the animated movie, and that's a distinctive voice to try to replace. Ditto Richard Boone for Smaug.
Lessee...
Bilbo Baggins Lobellia Sackville-Baggins Gandalf (Ian McKellan) Thorin (sugg. Geoffrey Rush) Oin Gloin Balin Dwalin Dori Nori Ori Fili Kili Bifur Bofur Bombur actors for the Trolls? Elrond (Hugo Weaving) misc. Rivendell Elves? The Great Goblin? misc. Goblins? Gollum (Andy Serkis) The Lord of the Eagles? Beorn Thranduil misc. Mirkwood Elves Bard (sugg. Patrick Warburton) misc. Laketown Men Smaug Dain Ironfoot
That about cover the potential cast list for The Hobbit portion of the story? I need to go back and refresh my memory of what happened between the end of the Hobbit and the beginning of LotR...
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
--David "Woody" Wooderson, Dazed and Confused
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WizArtist II
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I'm waiting for someone to start singing Ray Steven's "I'm My Own Grandpa". Also known as the official State Song of Arkansas.
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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Hmm...this animated movie was popular, was it? Everyone keeps talking about the difficulty of 'replacing' the voice actors. I never saw it, having heard from the LotR fans I knew that it was mildly silly and mostly not very good.
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