posted
Okay, I've seen it. It's very good. Something that could not have been done if it followed a TV-sized philosophy of the 60s with a larger franchise that was essentially stuck in the 80s. Starting from zero is what is needed if we're to see future Trek, and this is what can do it.
But what happens to the old universe? I've largely avoided the spoiler threads, so forgive me if the nomenclature has come up already.
Let's call the Star Trek universe up to this point "Universe-1". The new film explicitly states that they're in a divergent, alternate reality that started when Nero popped through from the future and destroyed the USS Kelvin. Thus, everything from Universe 1 still happened and will continue after 2387, while this second universe (which I'll call "Universe-A" for fun) shares everything that happened to that point and is on its own afterwards.
So, stuff of note that happened in both universes that may cause a problem:
- Various temporal incursions by the Enterprise in the 1960s
- An older, heavier crew of a destroyed USS Enterprise steals some whales in 1986
- Some self-righteous woman and her lost children muck up the LA skyline and surrounding desert in 1995
- Khan apparently controlled half the planet or something like that in 1995 and is currently floating around in suspended animation somewhere
- A Borg sphere crashed in the southern polar region of Earth in 2063 and no one noticed
- Pretty much everything in "Enterprise"
...And a bunch of other stuff from Universe-1 that isn't worth bringing up. This means that a considerable amount of history in Universe-A is a reult of stuff originating in Universe-1. Most of it will likely never be touched upon as Universe-1 stories have largely cleaned up after themselves, but it's interesting to think that anyone doing pre-2258 time travel in Universe-A will be interacting in history that was influenced by alternate versions of themselves.
This is to say nothing of what has happened in the post-TNG Universe-1 that seems to have been dismissed. It has nothing to do with Universe-A anyway except that it caused Nero and Spock to show up. However, it's important to point out that in Universe-1:
- Romulus itself has been obliterated, and with it probably a large chunk of the Empire, starting with Remus (if it truly is close to Romulus)
- Ambassador Spock has sacrificed himself to save many other star systems from the same fate, and unbeknowns to anyone in Universe-1 is now trapped in the past of Universe-A
I'm sure that the Universe-1 secondary media (probably the novels and comics only) will explore the ramifications of the movie in detail. The "Countdown" prequel comics establishes CAPTAIN Data in command of the Enterprise-E, with Picard an Ambassador to Vulcan (which is not destroyed), Geordi as the engineer that built Spock's "jellyfish" ship with the Vulcans, and Worf back with the Klingons yet again as a General. One wonders how (and if) this will be followed up in the future.
posted
Of interest to Universe-1 is probably the Star Trek Online's "The Path to 2409" (http://www.startrekonline.com/fiction), in particular the 2387 article: http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline/2387
I'm not entirely sure that time travelers from post-2233 Universe-1 actually do still exist in Universe-A's (Neroverse?) past. I mean.. in the Neroverse, they may never go back in time in the first place. OTOH, Star Trek has never been particularly clear on what theory of time-travel they use, and in fact its handled differently every time, so I guess we can't really be sure what happens.
We can also discuss what is different in the Neroverse.. particularly, the contact with Romulans in 2233. I don't remember that they made much of a fuss about seeing Romulans, as opposed to "Balance of Terror". So..
- I can't remember, but did Captain Robau and his crew realize that the bad guys were Romulan? - How and why would Uhura have learned Romulan languages? Theoretically humans could've known Romulan languages from the days of the Romulan War, but it seemed to be general knowledge that Romulan and Vulcan culture were very similar (see Spock's reasoning for joining Kirk in his mission to the Narada).
posted
There is a built-in 25-year gap between the Kelvin's loss and the start of the fun. Plenty of time for everyone to properly learn of the existence of the Romulans and their ties with the Vulcans. I don't recall any specific dialogus from Robau about the big face on the screen being Romulan, but relative history is open season after that.
posted
See, this is actually what's been driving me crazy the most since I saw this last night.
First, what to call the two universes. Awesome Futurama jokes aside, Nimoy's Spock was credited as "Spock Prime." Therefore the original timeline is "Prime." The Prime timeline. Or the Primeline.
As for what's actually happened, temporally speaking...
A couple of months ago, I think, the writers of the movie gave an interview in which they said they were going with the multiverse theory of time travel. When you travel back in time, you don't actually change your own timeline. You just create a second timeline, and the first one goes on without you.
That oddly seemed to agree with me, since I really didn't want to see the original series, Next Generation, etc., not exist anymore. And as Harry stated, that's the theory that Star Trek Online seems to be taking, since it takes place in the Primeline.
But nothing in the movie's dialog seems to imply the multiverse theory. In fact, the dialog seemed to go with the idea that the original timeline was wiped out. So, I'm not sure what to think at this point.
Maybe I'll just blame Braxton. It's what I always do anyway.
-------------------- "Kirito? I killed a thing and now it says I have XPs! Is that bad? Am I dying?"
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posted
I did postulate before I saw the movie that some of the differences (ie ship and costume designs) that appeared to have been in place prior to Nero's arrival would be a result of some or all of the Trek-Prime being negated or altered.
For example, the Cetacean probe is probably still on it's way, so assuming that will be dealt with in a similar manner then George, Gracie and Dr Taylor may have still disappeared from the late 80s, the the precise circumstances would be different (for one thing Spock would not have recently visited Mt Selaya.)
On the other hand, the Sisko (if he's ever born) may never find himself in the middle of the Bell riots so if you looked Gabriel Bell up in the Trek-Secundus he may not necessarily look like Avery Brooks. It's all very complicated and there's no way you can pick at all the strands and make it ALL work, especially when you try and factor in the mirror universe. I can only theorise that since the Prime and Prime-Mirror universes are so oddly entangled that when one of them make a "quantum split" they both split, which would mean that the Secundus universe would have it's own slightly different mirrored companion universe. One where Empress Sato still took power with the Defiant, but a Defiant from the Secundus that looks like the Secundus NCC-1701. Whether or not the Terran Empire falls because of Kirk's advise to Mirror-Spock remains to be seen.
And now I have a question; was George Kirk Jr Jim's older or younger brother? if the latter then neither he or by extension Peter would exist in this universe. An older brother certainly wasn't mentioned, but could still conceivably have existed off-screen.
A few more consequences that occur to me: -
Any Vulcan character alive in this period or born afterwards may now never have existed, though there's only a handful of notable examples.
I was going to mention Tuvok, but he wasn't born on Vulcan, so it's possible his parents survived.
Carol Marcus and David may or may not still be in Kirk's future, therefore the event's of TWoK may still play out similarly, though as I mentioned before, the Katra would have to be refused on New Vulcan (or whatever they end up calling the colony.)
It seams unlikely that Pike ever visited Talos IV.
Kirk may end up trapped in the nexus indefinitely.
posted
Rev - Sam Kirk was older, and he does exist. I didn't notice at the time (but I did when I checked IMDB), he's the older kid Jim drives past in the stolen car.
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: But nothing in the movie's dialog seems to imply the multiverse theory. In fact, the dialog seemed to go with the idea that the original timeline was wiped out. So, I'm not sure what to think at this point.
Actually there was a bit of dialog between Spock Prime and Kirk when they were on Delta Vega (!) along the lines of Kirk's father from Spock Prime's timeline being alive when Kirk (Prime?) took command of the Enterprise. So either TOS still happened as another timeline/multiverse/quantum reality, or Spock Prime is remembering events that no longer happened.
And my head is about to explode from all that thinking...
-------------------- It's life Jim, but not as we know it...
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quote:Originally posted by Krenim: ... Nimoy's Spock was credited as "Spock Prime." Therefore the original timeline is "Prime." The Prime timeline. Or the Primeline.
I like this nomenclature and hope people will use it going forward. It's very interesting to think that at least some of the events from the Primeline will have already been initiated (The whale probe, V'ger, Khan (ooh!), unsw.) But little details like while Carol Marcus probably exists and is likely in the process of becoming a Doctor, yeah she may never be inspired to do Project:Genesis or the project may not get funded or whatever. Neat!
I found an article with (I think it was) Orci talking about quantum mechanics and he was definitely in the multiverse camp. I'll try to link to it when I get back on a real computer.
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quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Rev - Sam Kirk was older, and he does exist. I didn't notice at the time (but I did when I checked IMDB), he's the older kid Jim drives past in the stolen car.
Oh so that's who that was. That makes sense. Well, if he's lucky this time he'll decide to NOT move to Deneva.
Here's a monkey wrench in the multi-universe theory: since Nero's ship entered the anomaly first and arrived at an earlier point in the timeline then when Spock Prime went through he shouldn't have arrived in the altered timeline but in the TrekPrime universe's past because Nero's arrival should have created an alternate 24th century that didn't include Vulcan or the Jellyfish. Think 'Back To The Future II', they couldn't go back the the 2015 they just left from the altered 1985 because it no longer existed in that continuum, having tangented in 1955. Same principle but the travel is in the opposite direction.
Which makes "Yesterday's Enterprise" a bit pointless since all Tasha did was cross over into an alternate universe (like Spock Prime) and left her origin Universe to it's own devices.
posted
Star Trek embraces the many-world hypothesis of parallel universes, but for the most part the actual time travel stories have suggested a single timeline which, when altered, reshapes the Trek fictional universe.
Orci's idea runs contrary to that by suggesting parallel timelines based on time travel. Trek has never been there. And further, the musings of the crew of the Monsterprise suggest they don't buy into that either.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:but for the most part the actual time travel stories have suggested a single timeline which, when altered, reshapes the Trek fictional universe.
Isn't that what happens?
And isn't that what makes it an alternate reality?
I suppose the question is, does the other universe still exist... well. We don't really know, I guess. Spock is the only remaining link, and he can't go back to check if that other universe is still there.
In Trek, universes have timelines, but if you screw with a timeline you have screwed with The Timeline for that universe. But this is not the same as actually hopping to or creating a new universe.
The Orci theory involves each of those columns above having sub-columns . . . that is, a single instance of time travel can make a Y appear like a fork in the road, and thus two parallel timelines are formed, and other parallels off of those, and so on.
Thus Orci's timelines are functionally equivalent to multiple universes, since they would both serve as columns in the above.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
So I think now we have to assume there are two types of time-travel in the Trek Universe. The 'singular universe timeline' - which most of Trek to date has dealt with. This Multiverse timeline of the movie - now exists alongside the other type. I guess it's what caused the time travel to beginwith - and for this movie it appears it was the Red-Matter anomaly. So maybe using that stuff triggers an alternate reality instead of just time travel on the same time-stream.
So yes, Spock is presumably killed in the supernova/destruction of Romulus and goes into the alternate timeline with Nero. As for the whole - "he entered at a different time than Nero" - maybe he got caught-up in the anomaly and proceeded through with Nero only came out a bit later. Anyway - it's a different reality - he's from the Universe 1 moving to universe A - whatever Nero does in the past isn't going to affect him.
Maybe we can call them nimoyverse and quintoverse?
So now we have two Star Trek universes to play in. Enterprise etc. still happened - they mentioned Admiral Archer and his Beagle (presumably not Porthos... but people tend to keep getting dogs from the same breed).
Stuff from Universe 1 was still allowed to let all the past 1960s, 1980s, 1990s, early 2000s etc time travel to happen. I guess the new movie is just a branch of the other.
1 A ^ ^ | | | | | | |/ Nero Appears | | | | First Contact etc.
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