posted
The main thing that worries me about the movie and the new timeline... is that this is now the main trek timeline... it's an upstart. It was a good movie and all but 1 two hour movie does not deserve to replace 40 years of established star trek. I know I know it doesn't but having just seen the movie and it still fresh in my mind and it's subject matter of time travel and time being rewritten I have this fear that people are going to accept this as the trek universe now. I know it sounds silly but the prime universe has a place in my heart and mind - as I'm sure it does in most people here. It's sorta weird to have it 'rewritten'. Yes silly I know, I know. I think I just need to go and watch some more 'Prime Universe' Star Trek. And it's also sad to think there's not going to be any more of that too. Hopefully it wont be too long and we'll get a new series set in the original universe. Will we ever get something in the original universe again? I hope the new movie's universe is always made clear and destinct from our own... I mean hehehe, from the prime universe.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: [qb]1. Romulans from the Prime timeline have had ridges since at least the 2100s. (And tattoos have never been observed as a Romulan normal trait, even among the civilians.) Nero and the gang do not have ridges. Ergo they are not our Romulans.
Not in TOS they didn't,
You sure? There are exceptions, but most of the Romulans in TOS had helmets which featured the same forehead design. And no such Romulans have been seen in the 24th Century.
Are you suggesting the unlikely scenario that this just so happens to be a ship totally staffed by a minority of smooth-headed Romulans? Do you have any evidence for this unlikely situation?
quote:
quote:Even in the Supernova timeline, they give stardates just like they do in BH 2233, a modified timeline.
So at some point between 2379 and the 2380s they went back to an older system of stardates. We've already seen them change dating conventions twice before.
We've only seen one change of stardate schemes in 200+ years of Federation history. The Earth Starfleet used Earth-normal dating conventions.
But again, your argument hinges on the argumentum ad ignorantium . . . specifically in this case, that no matter what changes are evident, they are based on a change that occurred between 2379 and 2387, no matter how unlikely.
Case in point:
quote:We have no idea what Scotty did or didn't do after we last saw him in "Relics" (TNG).
See?
I mean, I could point out other things, like there being no precedent for the Jellyfish design. But then you could simply say that we don't have any idea what super-advanced starship design techniques might be discovered 2379-2387.
We quickly wind up with Sagan's Dragon. There's simply too much that is too different and would've been too easy to make not different, and no reason to jump all 100 hoops to get to it.
quote:No, it would have changed when he came out, which according to Spock was "minutes" later.
I do not remember that line. However, I would've thought that going into the black hole in SN 2387 and coming out in BH 2233 would be simultaneous. After all, minutes spent in time travel have no real meaning when you get down to it.
The point, however, is that unless Nero was not yet gone, thereby 'holding open the door', as it were, then the timeline should've changed immediately. We know from the film that Nero had already arrived at BH 2233 subjectively before Spock's entrance into the black hole in SN 2387.
quote:Besides, they aren't using the "one timeline" theory any more, but rather the "many timelines" theory. For all we know, all our previous observations about how time travel works have been wrong.
Our observations are not wrong. Our conclusions might be, but not because the producers have ignored the Trek time travel principles standard to the productions for 40 years. That simply means that, if we choose to care enough to try to make a cohesive whole out of it, we have to get more creative with our conclusions.
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: These were mining ship Romulans.
We saw what appeared to be an average street corner of Romulus and a smattering of Romulans from the highest offices to the lowest underdwellers.
I might be willing to go so far as to entertain the idea of a declining population of smoothheads over the 200 years of observed Trek until they were super-rare in TNG time, but barely . . . however, the concept of a specific caste of smoothheads is unprecedented and makes Occam twitch.
quote:how many people are now gonna think that the Prime Timeline/Universe is gone forever!?!
I think the Supernova timeline is gone. However, I also see the new movie as a parallel universe altogether . . . an alternate reality, like Uhura said.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
Small point, but I think the 'Countdown' comic explained the tattoos as part of an ancient Romulan tradition, meant as a sign of mourning. Though in the tradition it's just paint that washes off over time (symbolically washing away the grief.) Given what happened to Romulus, Nero and crew made a point of making the markings permanent.
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: You sure? There are exceptions, but most of the Romulans in TOS had helmets which featured the same forehead design. And no such Romulans have been seen in the 24th Century.
Mark Lenard's Commander and his Centurian, the female Commander, Caithlin Dar, Ambassador Nanclus, all of the Romulan delegation from TUC, etc, had no ridges.
Either there are ridged and ridgeless Romulans who tend to flock together or they are all the same and we are supposed to ignore the apparent difference as aesthetic retconning. Have it whichever way you like, but you can't have it both ways. In any case, the discrepancy already existed before the new film was even conceived.
quote:Are you suggesting the unlikely scenario that this just so happens to be a ship totally staffed by a minority of smooth-headed Romulans? Do you have any evidence for this unlikely situation?
It's certainly no more unlikely than that all of the Klingons encountered during TOS were of the smooth-headed variety. Besides, how many Narada crewmembers did we actually see in the film? Less than ten, IIRC. If you really insisted on it, there could easily have been some ridged ones that we didn't see. But as I said, I'm sure we're not supposed to take it as anything but an artistic choice rather than an in-universe alteration.
quote:We've only seen one change of stardate schemes in 200+ years of Federation history. The Earth Starfleet used Earth-normal dating conventions.
Yes, but going from Earth normal dating to the TOS stardate system is a change. So is going from the TOS system to the TNG system. We've seen the Warp Speed scale change back and forth as well. (Although, here again, it was never intended that we scrutinize it this closely.)
quote:But again, your argument hinges on the argumentum ad ignorantium . . . specifically in this case, that no matter what changes are evident, they are based on a change that occurred between 2379 and 2387, no matter how unlikely.
What it hinges on is the clearly-stated intent of TPTB. Unlikeliness is subjectively judged. I don't see how your interpretation is any less convoluted or more likely, leaving aside that you want it to be the case.
quote:There's simply too much that is too different and would've been too easy to make not different, and no reason to jump all 100 hoops to get to it.
Your timeline hypothesis strikes me as more hoop-jumping than mine, especially when the producers have essentially told us what their intention was and how it is represented in the film.
quote:I do not remember that line. However, I would've thought that going into the black hole in SN 2387 and coming out in BH 2233 would be simultaneous. After all, minutes spent in time travel have no real meaning when you get down to it.
Spock Prime told Kirk his passage through the anomaly "was only minutes to me."
quote:Our observations are not wrong. Our conclusions might be
That is the same principle I am working from.
quote:the producers have ignored the Trek time travel principles standard to the productions for 40 years
There has been no standard set of time travel principles common to all the productions for 40 years! Writers just did whatever suited their particular plots, influenced by the popular science of the day.
My personal rationalization is that the apparent incongruity of differing time travel models is analogous to that between Newtonian and Relativistic models. Initially perceived as contradictory, one is in fact a subset valid under a certain set of circumstances.
quote:That simply means that, if we choose to care enough to try to make a cohesive whole out of it, we have to get more creative with our conclusions.
Again, I am working from the same principle. And forgive me, but I think you're getting a little too creative for your own good, here. I think we're supposed to take what we see at face value, but with the caveat that retconning is a continual process carried out by whoever the current caretakers of the franchise happen to be, and ultimately we must defer to that until the next bunch come along.
The whole point of including Nimoy in the film was to pass on the Trek mantle, just as had been done with every preceeding iteration. If Spock Prime (and, indeed, the title itself is an indication of intent) is some further alternate as you suggest, that aspect is gutted. Therefore, your scenario is dramatically unworkable.
Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of issues with the creative decisions behind the new film, and if I'd been in charge I would've done things differently. But, just as it was with ENT, I feel it's counterproductive to work toward the exclusion of what we don't like rather than its inclusion.
-MMoM
[ May 12, 2009, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
Wonder what will happen with the supernova in this alternate universe timeline? These 'natural' things like supernovae are bound to happen in more than one reality - unless it was artificially created. Will history repeat itself? Will Romulus still be destroyed again? Maybe in time for another cast in 40 years.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
In the alternate timeline, it should be possible to save Romulus. Spock Prime should at least be able to identify the star that went nova, and might even be able to instruct the Federation on how to produce red matter. Collapsing the supernova in the prime timeline wasn't the problem - Spock just didn't get there fast enough to save Romulus. With 129 years of a lead he should be able to get something sorted out.
-------------------- Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur
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Except that it in this case, the Dragon has left its tracks. Spock Prime says Scotty invented transwarp beaming, therefore he did. The ship gives its date of manufacture in a certain format, therefore that is the format used at its time of manufacture. We see something happen, or see the results thereof, ergo it happens. But the converse does not hold true. You cannot say: we do not see something happen, egro it does not happen.
The argumentum ad ignorantiam is yours, not mine. (We haven't previously seen smooth-headed tatooed Romulans in the Prime Timeline, therefore these smooth-headed tatooed Romulans cannot be from the Prime Timeline, etc.) I find it very odd that you feel Occam's Razor is better served by positing an additional timeline than by simply accepting that we now know there are (or rather were) smooth-headed tatooed Romulans in the Prime Timeline because we have now seen them.
[ May 13, 2009, 03:05 AM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
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posted
How ever did we cope before Enterprise told us how the Klingons got their foreheads?
-------------------- I have plenty of experience in biology. I bought a Tamagotchi in 1998... And... it's still alive.
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So let's say ST IX does erase the primeline. Would that mean that Nero and Old Spock would have to now come from the new universe and do everything their primeline counterparts did in order for this universe to persist? If this were the case, the new timeline could essentially erase itself by having its Hobus Star destroyed before it can destroy Romulus. Events would play out differently since Nero would not have an incentive to go all evil, pimp out his mining freighter, then lead said pimped out freighter through a serious of events that would lead him to be sent back in time. So then I guess time would correct itself, and we would have the Primeline minus the whole Romulus being destroyed event.
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Mark Lenard's Commander and his Centurian, the female Commander, Caithlin Dar, Ambassador Nanclus, all of the Romulan delegation from TUC, etc, had no ridges.
Mmm . . . Romulan Commander . . .
Oh, wait, sorry.
Anywho, given ENT's retcon of the ridges to pre-TOS, the TOS stuff can be regarded in the same way the Klingons were before the major Enterprise Klingon retcon . . . that is, we're just supposed to insert a smidgen of mental compartmentalization, and basically skip it in our brains.
However, I agree that TUC makes that impossible. The thinking at the time was probably that the Romulans were up to some very bad no-good when they were off being mysterious pre-2364, but the ENT use of ridges kinda kills that. Clearly the idea now is either that ridges are everpresent or that there is a very small smoothhead minority.
I would be willing to roll with the first but for Spock, who seemingly didn't stand out like a sore thumb.
The thing is, though, that these Supernova Romulans are neither of the above.
quote:But again, your argument hinges on the argumentum ad ignorantium . . . specifically in this case, that no matter what changes are evident, they are based on a change that occurred between 2379 and 2387, no matter how unlikely.
What it hinges on is the clearly-stated intent of TPTB.
Author intent is one thing, but what they actually made seems to be another. It happens. A film or TV show is not solely the work of scriptwriters . . . there are many hands in the pot. Consider this quote from Ira Behr regarding "A Call to Arms"[DSN5]:
quote:Spock Prime told Kirk his passage through the anomaly "was only minutes to me."
I'm not sure you're remembering that correctly. Nimoy has a line regarding Nero's 25 year wait being "seconds" for Supernova Spock as he continued to fall into the black hole in his uniquely-told meld story.
quote: I think we're supposed to take what we see at face value, but with the caveat that retconning is a continual process carried out by whoever the current caretakers of the franchise happen to be, and ultimately we must defer to that until the next bunch come along.
But the conversation by the BH Enterprise crew makes it fairly clear that the old timeline is wiped away ("destinies have changed", et cetera), despite Orci's statements to the contrary. In other words, there is a contradiction (or at least some damn strong contrariness) between what was said and what was intended.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Here's a thought:
So let's say ST IX does erase the primeline. Would that mean that Nero and Old Spock would have to now come from the new universe and do everything their primeline counterparts did in order for this universe to persist? If this were the case, the new timeline could essentially erase itself by having its Hobus Star destroyed before it can destroy Romulus. Events would play out differently since Nero would not have an incentive to go all evil, pimp out his mining freighter, then lead said pimped out freighter through a serious of events that would lead him to be sent back in time. So then I guess time would correct itself, and we would have the Primeline minus the whole Romulus being destroyed event.
Or maybe not?
Thgis bit of paradox is nicely explained in the most recent film version of the Time Machine- even if events dont coorespond exactly to the original timeline, the cause for the traveler going back in time will remain valid- The Time Traveler's girlfriend kept getting killed in diffrent ways but, as she was the reason he invented the machine in the first place, he could not save her.
In Trek, we have both causeality and alternate timelines (usually represented as alternate universes, but still another timeline).
It sure would be funny if this new timeline uses Spock Prime's knowldege to prevent every calamity the Federaion will face (Tomed Incident, Borg, etc.) and as result, becomes a Terran Empire equilivent.
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posted
True - It makes you wonder if they thought about this. Or will Spock not divulge the future. Seeing as things have been irreparibly changed what would it matter. Would he want the lives of the people who died in the Tomed Incident or the Borg invasions on his hands? Or the Dominion Wars.
I suppose if you change one thing it's gonna mean things a century later are going to be way different.
Spock could become some sort of GOD. I mean literally - he could go and discover the Bajoran Wormhole!
Do you think the fleet in the Laurentian system has something to do with the Kelvin being destroyed and the presence of future Romulans in the past? Although - at the same time in the normal timeline - we obviously knew nothing about what was going on elsewhere in the Federation.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
But the conversation by the BH Enterprise crew makes it fairly clear that the old timeline is wiped away ("destinies have changed", et cetera), despite Orci's statements to the contrary. In other words, there is a contradiction (or at least some damn strong contrariness) between what was said and what was intended.
Alternate Timeline. The Prime timeline still exists. The Nimoy-Spock that we saw which was OUR Spock/Prime universe Spock would have ceased to exist. Unless... you could argue that he was caught up in the anomaly like the Enterprise-E was in First Contact. I'm not having that though. The Prime Universe still exists. You don't go wiping away 40 years of established universe for on two hour movie.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
And I think that *all* happened. Hence Supernova Spock, who is not our Prime timeline Spock, and the aforementioned NOBH Spock.
What Orci intended was for a new parallel timeline, even though that's not how Trek works but whatever.
But Orci did not work alone. The script and film as completed do not necessarily support that conclusion. Obviously I do not have the transcript, but the Monsterprise crew talk about the fact that history's been changed, that things will unfold differently, Spock refers to the idea that "destinies have changed", and Uhura says something about an "alternate reality" to which Spock says "precisely".
Only Uhura's statement could be viewed as supporting a parallel universe idea, but Spock seems otherwise to be arguing for the single-timeline shift concept, a la First Contact.
I think they left it vague simply because the plot had such holes in it that if they really pushed the parallel universe idea, certain aspects of the plot might make less sense, not to mention getting a bunch of pissy fanboys bitching about how the movie sucks.
-------------------- . . . ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
posted
I think your nomenclature has me confused, G2K. I think that you are asserting that everything in the new movie is alternate, even the so-called Prime Timeline where the supernova is going to blow up the galaxy or whatever...
My take, and I hope this isn't too rudimentary is that the Primeline is bounding along as we've been faithfully watching these many decades. When Spock and co. use the red matter to contain the supernova (after the regretful destruction of Romulus.) The resulting black hole causes a powerful temporal disturbance into which first Nemo and the Narada, then Spock Prime and the jellyfish ship disappear. The Primeline then continues with an abated supernova, but without Romulus, the Narada, Spock, and a sizeable quantity of red matter. Everyone is sad about Spock and Romulus and to a lesser extent the crew of the Narada...
Meanwhile back in the past a new timeline is being created... The Narada emerges confused and furious from the temporal anomaly and beats the ever-living snot out of the horrendously ill-equipped Kelvin. George Kirk valiantly sacrifices himself, James T. Kirk gets born. Many years pass and in this time, Nero figures out he's traveled to the past, broods a bit, makes a plan, broods a bit more, beats up some Klingons, and then sits in wait for the jellyfish ship to emerge from the temporal thingy. In the meantime young Kirk has grown up way more bratty, Spock is, like, way more emotional and chicks with good ears dig him. Anyway Spock Prime finally emerges from the time thing, Nero pounces on him and captures the jellyfish, drops Spock off on Delta Vega, and proceeds to plant a black hole at Vulcan's core. There's some trifling with a bunch of still out-matched Federation ships, some brief amusement at insuring Quinto Spock is as miserable as Nero, and then the Narada sets off to blow up the Earth. Of course, with the wise counsel of Spock Prime, the Enterprise and her youthful crew are able to stop Nero before any red matter can be injected into Earth's core, and instead use all the red matter to create a black hole in the middle of the Narada just outside Sol system (as Jason points out in another thread, this may have some negative ramifications.)
Anyway, the JJVerse (Neroverse? BH timeline? 2009 timeverse? Dawsonverse?) continues on with a youth-y crew, tons of lensflares, and they go off and have exciting adventures without a planet called Vulcan, a pretty deep hole under the Golden Gate, two Spocks (one with some pretty awesome knowledge of advanced tech, one with a totally smokin' comms officer) and Federation ships with gigungous nacelles. Some of those adventures may take them to a still intact Romulus. The Hobus Star supernova may still pose a threat to the galaxy. Future movies will tell...
But the Primeline goes on too. I imagine a great big ceremony with Picard and B4 and Admiral Janeway and Captain (or whatever) Riker all crying/celebrating the survival of the galaxy somewhat saddened by the loss of Spock (again!). And because there are so few of them left after their planet got blowed up, no one really pays much attention to whether or not the Romulans (sporting glyphs of mourning) have bumpy foreheads or not.
Is my take on things. I'm sorry I'm not grasping your BH / SN stardate thing.
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![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I think I just need to go and watch some more 'Prime Universe' Star Trek. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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