posted
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. While there can't be any justification for rape, that mind-meld was a necessary evil to prevent an interstellar war. At least, thats how I see it.
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quote:Originally posted by shikaru808: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. While there can't be any justification for rape, that mind-meld was a necessary evil to prevent an interstellar war. At least, thats how I see it.
What if they just started breaking her fingers instead? Or pulling her teeth? Maybe waterboarding her or sticking needles under her fingernails?
How long untill the main characters become worse than the villans?
Yeah, I can see why Roddenberry hated STVI- they threw out all the "bright shiny moral future" in favor of a military "ends justify the means" solution.
It was 24 in space...
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posted
What bothered me wasn't so much what was done or how it was done so much as the fact that the immorality of it wasn't even acknowledged, let alone discussed. Does Starfleet and the Federation not have rules concerning the treatment of prisoners? Do they not have the presumption of innocence until a formal trial is held?
I might even argue that this was *worse* than a rape. As horrendous as it might be to endure such a thing, it is still "only" physical in nature. Given enough impetus, you can block out pain and physical sensation, turn your mind inward and go somewhere else in your head. I'm not saying that makes it OK, but by contrast there's no getting away from someone literally crawling around inside your mind.
I mean, when you get right down to it, the only trauma that ever really matters and has a lasting effect on a person is psychological.
It should also be worth remembering that from the way the scene was played, Spock clearly not being gentle and Valeris was clearly distressed. I'm pretty sure the actors and director knew full well what the subtext of this scene was.
posted
Jason: Perhaps being in the military has given me a "whatever it takes" attitude. Truth be told, I really do see your points in the whole matter. No matter how you spin it, it wasn't right.
But frankly, at what point does holding the moral high ground justify the loss of life of potentially billions of people? It may not have been okay, but it was definitely neccessary IMHO.
Rev: How could a forcefull mind meld be any worse than a violent sexual assault such as rape? Whats the worse that could have came with that mind-meld? Spock (and only Spock) knew of Valeris' deepest, darkest secrets? I wonder if he was able to bypass "unneccessary" memories and just dig to the info he needed?
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"I mean, when you get right down to it, the only trauma that ever really matters and has a lasting effect on a person is psychological."
Well, unless you start cutting bits off. That can be pretty lasting.
"Does Starfleet and the Federation not have rules concerning the treatment of prisoners?"
One thing that might be of note here is that Spock and Valeris were both active members of Starfleet, which is portrayed as being run as a military, with their own judicial system and everything. The Federation may have rules regarding the treatment of prisoners, but the rules may be very different for Starfleet treatment of Starfleet officers on a Starfleet ship out in space.
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quote:the rules may be very different for Starfleet treatment of Starfleet officers on a Starfleet ship out in space.
Zathras agrees with sentiment that Zathras likes. There is symmetry.
I agree with "rules may be different". It's like Jack Ryan foregoing the Geneva Convention and calmly putting seven bullets into the KGB-agent on the Red October (sure he may have had live wires, but man that was cold).
MM:
quote:But that mind rape scene was really creepy. I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the things that Roddenberry was most pissed about
I'm gonna play Spock's Advocate here and say that the scene carries tremendous dramatic value and potent character progression. The "gloves off" atmosphere also helps revitalize what had been a very lukewarm, lackluster streak of movies script-wise (IV, V).
This "arm wrestle" mind meld was also a bit of fan service, in the "I didn't know he could do that" category, almost similar to Superman getting shot in the eye.
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quote:Originally posted by shikaru808: Jason: Perhaps being in the military has given me a "whatever it takes" attitude. Truth be told, I really do see your points in the whole matter. No matter how you spin it, it wasn't right.
But frankly, at what point does holding the moral high ground justify the loss of life of potentially billions of people? It may not have been okay, but it was definitely neccessary IMHO.
What the point of TOS if they dont do what's morally right? Without that moral elevation, it's just a WWII submarine movie.
Moral ambiguities work great on DS9...with TOS, not so much. Rather than showcasing the character's realism, it diminishes them- like seeing Superman roast someone with heat vision- it's beneath what the character would ever consider as a means to an end.
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posted
So you're saying that if old TOS Spock was put in that situation he would let the war happen just to protect a traitorous Vulcan's innermost thoughts and fears from being exposed? I would think that he would do the logical decision, the one that was shown on screen
Roddenberry not liking STVI is definitely no surprise though. Not very utopian.
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posted
The good old "needs of the many" definitely is in Spock's favor. The key difference, though, was that Spock volunteered for the job in TWOK, whereas his meld with Valeris was definitely nonconsensual.
I think the debate arises not from the fact that it's the wrong decision, but because the ramifications are rather glossed over in the movie.
And the sad thing is, like many other "enhanced" interrogations, it was all for nothing anyway; Valeris didn't know what they needed to know. So they had to call Sulu anyway.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Exactly- the ends did not justify the means- Sok raped her and for nothing. In TOS, they'd have made that a plot point about the dangers of becoming what you fight against or how you should really take a victim someplace private before raping them- the bridge is no place for such nonsense.
And the overall theme of the Trek movies remains "violence solves everything"....well except TMP which just goes on and on and on untill you fall asleep or hit fast forward thinking "Why the hell did I buy this movie anyway?"
And of course, they did not show any aftermath of STVI- a sweeping investigation into who knew what and who Cartwright's accompices were- surely far more people were involved than we saw onscreen.
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WizArtist II
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posted
Well, the Trek movies wouldn't be very interesting if they were about exploring some gaseous anomaly while talking about their feelings would they?
Let's face it, we want our Trek movies with scenes of the Enterprise blasting away at some unrepentant baddie.
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posted
Valeris was sorta unrepentant...though the blasting...well, maybe back in Spock's quarters between scenes.
STVI needed James Hong and Kurt Russell.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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