quote:Considering the fact that all that CONJECTURE is what everything in modern Trek has been based on, perhaps you should be a bit less callous.
Maybe you should be a bit less pretentious? How about that?
The later series followed this conjecture, but not once, NOT ONCE, has there been any mention of a specific date for any of the stuff you are arguing about. The writers of the later series have kept things nice and vague. There is STILL no problem with Enterprise.
quote:Okuda-san is a great and honorable man. He knows more about Trek than just about anyone, and he could blow a more continuous story out of his excretory canal than Rick and Brannon could come up with after three series and three films!
I said nothing about Okuda not being honorable. I praise his efforts in trying to document the history of Trek, but very little except what happens present-tense in the Trek universe has a date specifically set in stone. Your bit about Okuda coming up with a continuous story is a failed analogy. He's the art designer and helps keeps things in line for the writers. He does not write the stories.
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#1. Even if these things haven't been concretely established in the show themselves, they've become widely (one might say universally) accepted as the accurate view of the Trek universe. And it's just like Berman to go screwing with it.
#2. I meant that he's the one who comes up with all the explanations to smooth out all of the ridiculous errors that TPTB create in their haste to give the audience their eye candy.
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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How can you say that anything has been widely accepted? Are you speaking for all of the Star Trek fans in the world? Let me tell you, there's a lot of them.
I belong to an informal Star Trek fan club in my dorm. There's about twenty-five of us who gather to watch Star Trek. Thankfully, not all of us show up at the same time. My room can't handle more than maybe ten people at a time. Anyway, I bring this group up because out of all twenty-five of us, I am the only one with the Chronology. Two of us have a version of the Encyclopedia. So, there are only three of us in this group that know what Okuda postulated as the date for first contact with the Klingons.
Most of the Star Trek fans I have meet are not obsessive compulsive about Star Trek. They do not hang out at Star Trek forums. They do go to fan sites, own their own uniforms, or go to conventions. They watch the series and enjoy what they see. These are people who do not know that Okuda has done anything other than scenic art work if they know he's affiliated with the show at all. By their standards, I'm the Star Trek know-it-all, yet it's clear that I do not know everything about this franchise.
All your arguements come back to this one point: Rick Berman is the Anti-Trekker and is on a mission to destory Star Trek. I have YET to see a purpose to any of your arguments that deviates from this one point. Heck, your own signature is a slam at Berman. You seem to be clouded by this extreme dislike you have for him and Brannon Braga. And because of this, it is getting very frustrating to have any sort of normal discourse with you because you're basing all of your arguments on the basis that Rick Berman + Brannon Braga = Evil + Death of Star Trek.
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Wow, Mr.Siegfried. I understand that a lot of Okuda's writings in the encyclopedia were conjecture. But if we can't rely on some of the information he gives, then we'll ust be speculating forever when TOS took place. All I was trying to say was that there are somethings we will not see.
(Now I will stick to plain history, said in the episodes). Romulans are one speices, at least the Federation can't see their faces in the series. Second, no phasers or Borg. Now all what I have said is fact.
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This is thing that one must understand about the Chronology and the Encyclopedia and other work that Michael Okuda has done to chart the timeline of the Star Trek universe: he made the best guess that he could based on the canon information available to him.
Too many of y'all are getting bent out of shape because the dates coming from Enterprise aren't gelling with what Okuda wrote. Well, Okuda sifted through hundreds of hours of episodes and movies to arrive at the dates he did. And he acknowledges that most of the dates he sets down are based on his opinion and from dialog in the series. Enterprise is actually coming into the party and nailing down specific dates for historical events in the Trek universe. Some of these are deviating from the Okuda works by a few years; one of them is deviating from the Okuda works by seventy years, but there is canonical evidence to support this severe deviation.
Instead of being happy that Enterprise is trying to fit in within a set of guidelines of historical events that was drafted by Okuda, many of y'all are planning on bombing Paramount Studios because the vile and evil Berman and Braga are daring to not follow the word of Okuda to the letter. That is utter nonsense. A comparative example would be me telling you that I was hit by a car about 15 years ago. Given the 15 years and the current date of 2001, you'd surmise that I was hit by a car in 1986. After a few days, I come back and tell you that I hit by a car in 1987. Now you're flaming me because I dared to alter your perception of an event where I rounded the number of years that passed. The Chronology and Encyclopedia are built on rounded numbers. Okuda did the best he could, but Star Trek has always talked about its history in vague enough terms that the writers don't write themselves into a corner. Okuda has even acknowledged this aspect of Star Trek.
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Wow, Mr.Siegfried. I understand that a lot of Okuda's writings in the encyclopedia were conjecture. But if we can't rely on some of the information he gives, then we'll ust be speculating forever when TOS took place.
Actually, we won't. In "Q2" (VGR), Icheb states that the five-year mission ended in 2270. "Trials and Tribble-ations" (DS9) puts the middle of the second season right around the 2267-68 boundry. So we know pretty conclusively when TOS is set.* It's set right where Okuda said it's set, with the five-year mission moved one year forward from his conjectural 2264-69.
You were probably just saying that offhand, but it's actually another great example of Mike Okuda's conjecture not being what is ultimately used. He's just a fan like the rest of us when it comes to writing the books... a fan who also happens to draw pretty pictures. Mmmm... Okudagrams...
-=Ryan McReynolds=-
*There are two other retroactive references to the five-year mission that slightly conflict with this. "Sarek" suggest that TOS season two was in 2266, but the "Trials and Tribble-ations" reference is more precise and I prefer it. Finally, "Crossover" (DS9) suggests that TOS season two was after 2271, "less than a century before" the episode. It was spoken in the mirror universe, by a member of the Alliance, and could be in Cardassian, Klingon, or Bajoran years, if we want to rationalize it.
[ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
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Right Seigfried my good man. I want you to sit down calmly, and take a few deep breaths.
Seriously though man, I'm not being patronising. But I'm glad your passionate about it, as we both are, even though we have differeing views. The point is, as individual humans on this world we cannot have identical views and values. Certain things that please us will not please others. But the thing you must understand is that I am from an older school of thought when it comes to Trek. You said too that you 'grew up with TOS', but did I then hear you say you share a dorm with 25 guys?? So I take it you're in college, which means no, you did not grow up with TOS.
But in all reality I say this TO EVERYONE who can readily accept that new Enterprise. WAKE UP why don't you! What would you all say if they just used the hull of a Galaxy Class and stuck a couple of Phoenix nacelles on it??? Huh?? Would you then sya, "hmm, okay, yes, the design fits in alright with the 22nd century..."
Bullshit.
Let me spell it out: I-T I-S A-N A-K-I-R-A C-L-A-S-S.
It is a nasty, cheap, quick, careless Akira-Phoenix kitbash with no thought or consideration whatsover. THIS, Seigfried is my gripe. And 4 days from Qo'Nos at warp 4.5 on the old scale, oh come on. That just made me shudder!!
And Ryan is correct with his date analysis. What further proof does anyone require that TOS was set in the 2260's. Period.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
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No offense to anyone involved in this comparison, but your arguments are becoming more irrational than Omega's.
Registered: Mar 1999
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I may only be in my twenties, but I did grow up on The Original Series. My mother was a hard core fan and she got me started watching the original episodes off of the Columbia House videotapes and syndication. Just because I did not grow watching the first run of the series in the sixties is no excuse for to say with certainty that I cannot possibly fathom what is at stake here.
As for your example about the Galaxy-class hull, if that is what had been done, then even I would be up in arms. But this isn't what happened. Eaves started with the basis of the Akira class and made significant alterations to it. Read Ryan MacReynolds analysis in the Starship Forum. We are not all accepting what is being tossed at us. Even those of us arguing for the new series knows that things can be easily screwed up. If we watch Enterprise is see replicators being used, yes, we will be upset and will vent our outrage in this forum. The problem is that you are assuming the worse and venting as if it is fact. We will know nothing for certain until the series premieres in September.
And, I shall once again say for the record, the time it takes to reach somewhere at a certain speed has never been religiously adhered to in Star Trek. Not in the The Next Generation, not in Deep Space 9, not in the Movies, not in Voyager, and not in The Original Series. To use this as cornerstone of your argument is to hold all of the series and movies to the same candle to flame them all.
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I recall no significant violation of speed/distance that equals this. (except perhaps ST V which is another story of course). It just sounds disappointing that they have to resort to such a clumsy violation. It isn't necessary - if only they'd do a little research. I'm not nitpicking to the quantum level, ie I want them to be Nth degree accurate to the warp chart. But four days...!
I am in the majority of people that are bothered by this. If they said 4 weeks, or a couple of months that would be just fine, it would sound more 'realistic'. Yes it may not make superb drama if they took forever to get anywhere. But this is the 22nd century, so I'm begging them to make it sound and feel more plausible. You know what I mean?
I meant no disrespect, nor did I intend to impugn your valuation or appreciation of TOS due to the era in which you grew up. Age is no important factor really. TOS is special to all of us.
I may be 'assuming the worst', or making negative suppositions, but can I really be blamed? I do not trust Berman and Braga, I do not deserve to be roasted for that. Possibly 90% of Trekkers here don't. But I am not pre-judging, I am venting serious concern. And the Akiraprise I detest, and I will not apologise for it.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
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To go back to the original point (since EVERY thread here is turing out the same), the only aliens, off the top of my head, that we definetly, absolutly, almost 100% certainyl can't see without a really good work around are:
Borg Romulans (at least physically) Ferengi (and, to be fair, the whole "First meeting with the Ferengi was in TNG season 1" thing is pretty shaky, according to almost everything that came after).
Oh, and Mim: "Okuda-san is a great and honorable man. He knows more about Trek than just about anyone, and he could blow a more continuous story out of his excretory canal than Rick and Brannon could come up with after three series and three films!"
Yes, Michael Okuda is a great man. THE GREATEST MAN SINCE JESUS CHRIST.
He may be able to "blow" a more continuos story than Berman or Braga. But 3 serise full of people saying "so, Kirk first met Spock in 2265, okay?" "yeah" wouldn't really have been terribly exciting.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
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