posted
I know it's already been debated but I didn't feel like searching for the thread.
While updating my site I decided to try to make some order to the whole Peregrine-class issue.
Please Click here and tell me if I got it right. Thanks.
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posted
Hobbes, as far as the Peregrine goes, you're right; but I tend to believe (going by the cockpit size) that the Peregrine class actually has TWO size variants as seen on DS9 - the normal "small ship" size, with four cockpit windows around the front, as used by Starfleet and the rebels, and the very small "fighter" size, with one large window in the front, referred to onscreen as "tac fighters" in the last episodes of DS9. These are indeed the ones seen in combat scenes (trust me, I wore out a video tape freeze-framing the flybys to check the cockpit window size!)and (speculation here) probably have a crew of one or two and are carried by the Akiras and other ships to the front.
IP: Logged
posted
You could be right. But I'm just trying to basically sort out what's what. There's been so much confusion what a Peregrine is and what a Maquis raider is. Especially when the ST:Encyclopedia makes the Peregrine the "The First Duty" trainer craft.
------------------ Daniel: "Senator, we have reason to believe the Goa'uld are about to attack." Kinsey: "Then I think they'll regret taking on the United States military!" Daniel: "Oh, you're right. We'll just upload a virus into the mother ship." This post sponsered in part by the Federation Starship Datalink
First of all, I'll remind everyone that linking the name "Peregrine" and the Attack Fighter/Maquis ship design is still speculative. It may we widely accepted here and by Sternbach, but its by no means undisputed.
The Attack Fighters from SofA et al were admittedly not clearly scaleable during most of the Fleet scenes, but Frank can confirm they were probably in the 30ish meter range, which matches up with the Maquis ships from "The Maquis," which were around 35m based on cockpit size. A ship this size, incidentally, would not fit through the doors to the Akira's supposed "fighter bay."
(IMHO Jaeger is about as credible a crafter of the Trek canon as any 3D modeler online)
As for the other Maquis raider design, Hobbes, I'm still a bit picky about that 60m length. The scaling was indeed notorious from shot to shot in Caretaker, ranging from pretty small next to the Galor at the start to 100m+. If you scale off the cockpit windows (the cockpit was a runabout redress), you get a length of 85m, which fits a three deck layout nicely and is big enough to fit the fifty or so Maquis onboard, without making too many VFX shots look like utter crap.
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 13, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 13, 2000).]
posted
I think I'm with Tom on this. The four-windowed ship flown by Chakotay (and later by Eddington and friends in "For the Uniform") really looks as if it could be a three-decker with 85m length, while "Preemptive Strike" places the differently windowed variant at something like 30-50m, with 85m a possibility but not a necessity. A, say, 40m triangular-windowed variant could well be a single-deck craft with interiors similar to the "alien shuttle" set used in "Preemptive Strike".
I can understand Bernd's and others' arguments that the two craft are actually portrayed as being roughly similar in size and should be taken as such to avoid a scaling paradox - but the *intention* of the VFX folks clearly was to show a size difference, and the cockpit interiors deserve to be considered here, too.
As for which ship is the Peregrine, I think a "courier" has to be capable of actually carrying passengers or mail bags or stuff like that. The tactical fighters are a wee bit too compact and warlike for that, while the roomier, shuttlelike interiors of the smaller Maquis ship (the one from "Preemptive Strike") suggest a passenger capability. This ship is my favorite for Peregrine class.
The bigger Maquis ship (from "Caretaker") shouldn't be a Peregrine, since apparently the real Peregrine could not outrun a runabout, and could be flown by a single person without Odo or Kira expressing amazement or even curiosity (and we are not speaking of a suicide run here, but actual long-term flying). Both of these attributes ill fit the "Caretaker" ship, which seemed to have a separate engine room (making single-pilot operations very dubious) and could arguably give a race to a Galor, or a Defiant.
posted
Actually, the runabout outrunning the Maquis ship thing has gotta be the worst gaffe surrounding the Peregrine mess of all. The thing is described as a "Peregrine-class interceptor," modified to go faster still. And yet, a max warp 4.8 runabout can easily run it down?
Is it just me, or is an interceptor that travels slower than warp 5 as useless as Oberth-class battleship? Indeed, if the Peregrine was originally a courier, a modified version with additional weaponry would logically make an excellent interceptor. If the DS9 writers had just taken a page from Voyager's book, and let TECH interfere with TECH which helped TECH happen, the runabout might have caught the interceptor in another manner and all would be ducky
Oh, and Timo, the exact same model that was called a "courier" in The Maquis appeared in SofA (well, it was CGI in the latter, but I digress). Indeed if we squeeze this ship as close to the 40m mark as we can, there might be room for a second deck below the cockpit, 747 style, which could contain bunks and storage and stuff. That's my preferred theory.
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
The image in the lower right shows the raider with a familiar shuttle cockpit! Provided this is the final version as used in "Preemptive Strike", the ship would be only 30m long. I'm pondering whether there might be really two sizes...
------------------ "Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities." Ex Astris Scientia
...and why haven't you shared this image beforehand...??
:-D
I wonder if that was what they filmed for Ro's ship, or if it's just a study model... Hmm...
If it IS what they filmed, however rough it may appear, then I'd be happy! It has different details, one can see. That means a scaling problem isn't so bad...
BTW - I'm posting this from a dial-up connection at work...
So far, what seems to make sense is:
Fighter = fighter, no class name, just a type number. Ro's ship = Peregrine Class. Chakotay's ship = possible Antares, or something else entirely, depending...
posted
Jason: Just had to go about bragging your cable modem, eh? I use dial-up all the time
------------------ "We have HTML and images in sigs disabled here. Don't try it. If you do, I'll shove the image up your ass, then ban you. Have a nice day. :)" -Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
posted
The somewhat low detail on Ro's ship suggests to me that this could be a later reproduction, something a fan built out of the Monogram or ERTL kit of Chakotay's ship. But I thought it was common knowledge that Ro's ship in "Preemptive Strike" had this different cockpit. It matches the "alien shuttle" set used for the interiors pretty well, and could even provide an absolute scaling reference. Steve Pugh has pics of both models here (scroll down to see first Ro's, then Chakotay's version - the Ro ship pic seems to be a direct screencap).
Of interest is that Steve's picture clearly shows that the Ro wing roots lack the strakes seen in the Chakotay wings, just like in Bernd's ST Mechanics picture - but Steve's picture also shows both ships as having the small "impulse engine" lumps outboard of the tall vertical fins astern, while Bernd's picture of the Ro ship has these lumps missing. Perhaps they were added later in the process?
Oh, and BTW, Tom, the ships in "The Maquis" weren't called anything at all, while the unseen ship in "Heart of Stone" that tried to outrun the runabout but couldn't was identified as "Peregrine class courier, modified". "The Maquis" also features an off-screen ship that is only monitored as a Starfleet symbol on a computer monitor when Sisko and Dukat go scouting - this ship is called either an auxiliary courier or an auxiliary carrier, difficult to say which.
Timo Saloniemi
[This message has been edited by Timo (edited August 15, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Timo (edited August 15, 2000).]
posted
Hmmm.. I could have sworn it was "Interceptor" in Heart of Stone. *shrugs* And I'm pretty sure the two ships in "The Maquis" were intended to be the couriers. Who's got that CD-ROM with the scripts again?
*wonders if the new DS9 Companion might shed any light on the matter*
Considering that Bernd's pic is from Mechanics, I imagine its not a fan-built model. So I'm now wondering if it's actually the final version or a pic of the model under construction. If the final and shot version was indeed that fugly, it raises doubts that Chakotay's ship was indeed a rebuild of it. I know for a fact the Ro-mobile can't have been bashed from the Revellogram kit because it wasn't released until about a year after Preemptive Strike aired. But what about it being a study model for Chakotay's ship?
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 15, 2000).]
posted
The model on Steve's screencap almost definitely has the alien shuttle cockpit too, and seems to be lacking the same details as the ST Mechanics image on the lower right. I think the very same model was modified to represent a larger ship, and this was when the additional details were added.
Jason: Wait until I post *all my scans*
------------------ "Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities." Ex Astris Scientia
posted
Well, WE ARE WAITING! So what's costing? Can't you post any faster, huh? Huh? C'mon, keep the scanner hot! :-P
So Bernd, do you agree that the differences between Ro's and Chakotay's ship now make void the scaling problem? They may come from the same manufacturer, but the details are certainly different enough to allow for different sizes.
Incidentally, the Ro ship has those four identical "clamps" that would seem to be weapon emitters, two at the wingtips and two closer to the cockpit, ahead of the engine cowlings. The Chakotay ship has the wingtip ones obscured by the new weapon assemblies, assemblies that seem similar to its gunlike under-cockpit protrusion. Can you tell where weapons fire actually erupted from in each design? I have "Caretaker" on tape, but not "Preemptive Strike" nor "For the Uniform".
And don't these "clamps" look quite a bit like the main guns of a Ferengi marauder...?
posted
I know that in "For the Uniform" the fire came from the extreme wingtips, so probably the BoP-like guns were responsible. The clamps (which do bear a passing resemblance to the Marauder weapons, yes) might not even be weapons... The fact that the ones on Chakotay's ship would be 2.5 times bigger than the ones on Ro's might suggest they're something easily built bigger or smaller. Frank's got a pile of Preemptive Strike screencaps buried in those folders of his (where directory listings are denied ) so we might get a bit more light shed on the matter later...
------------------ "...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..." -Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 15, 2000).]
) so we might get a bit more light shed on the matter later...
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