posted
Just got back from watching this. Initial thoughts are as follows:
Good, the opening crawl explained everything I needed to know. I was kinda worried that we wouldn't get an explanation as to how the Empire and the Rebellion became the First Order and the Resistance respectively, but they got it out of the way in a concise manner.
So the First Order's stormtroopers aren't clones, but they are raised and conditioned from birth to be stormtroopers. They aren't even given names.
One thing that I really liked right off the bat about this movie is that it was fun. Watching Poe and Finn escape from the Star Destroyer (Not sure if it was technically a Star Destroyer, but it was Star Destroyer-esque) showed that they were actually engaging characters, as opposed to what we mostly got in the prequel trilogy.
Rey was also a fun character, but there's a lot about her left unanswered. She was apparently left alone on Jakku by her parents, but who were her parents? I suspect that Luke is her father, given her being drawn to the Skywalker family lightsaber, but nothing is confirmed or denied in this movie.
"Let's take that ship over there!" "What about that ship?" "That ship's junk!" *Good ship blows up* "Junk ship it is, then!" *Junk ship is the Millennium Falcon*
Ladies and gentlemen, Han Solo is back! I know a lot of people were worried (myself included) that Harrison Ford would sleepwalk through the role like he did in the recent Indiana Jones movie, but he didn't. He was freaking awesome! (Well, until...)
It's good they didn't draw out the mystery of who Kylo Ren was. So Han and Leia had a son named Ben. Luke began training Ben to be a Jedi, but was corrupted by Snoke and killed all the other apprentices. He's literally a Vader fanboy, and... it works.
Speaking of Snoke, he only appears by hologram, so I'm wondering if he actually is that big. We learn nothing about him other than he leads the First Order and that he was the one that caused Ben to fall to the dark side, although it looks like he's taken a great deal of physical punishment at some point in the past.
Halfway through the movie, it dawned on me that very little of the musical score from the original trilogy was being used. For example, the only time we hear the Imperial March is just for a few seconds when we first see Vader's helmet.
Just how did Maz get Anakin's lightsaber anyway? She says that's a story for another time, and I hope that's true, because I want to hear it.
Leia! Carrie Fisher looks pretty good; too bad she sounds like she's been smoking for decades (and I'm pretty sure she has). And yes, Max von Sydow, she will always be royalty to us.
Is there some sort of shortage of gold paint that they couldn't make 3PO's new arm match the rest of him?
And R2-D2 just shut himself off after Luke left, only to miraculously turn himself back on just in time to complete the movie's MacGuffin in the last few minutes? Honestly, this whole map-to-Luke thing was the weakest point in this movie.
Oh Han. Han, Han, Han. Don't you know you never confront someone in a Star Wars movie while over a bottomless pit with no handrails? Yeah, Ben/Kylo skewers Han with his lightsaber on Snoke's orders. Assuming they go the redemption route with him, Kylo's gonna have to do a lot before I buy him coming back from the dark side.
We get a hologram comparing Starkiller Base to the Death Star. Problem is, they don't say which Death Star. Wasn't the second one supposed to be bigger than the first?
And we get Luke in the last minute of the film. And he doesn't say anything. (Yet somehow, Mark Hamill takes top billing. Go figure.) He does indeed seem to be using a less realistic prosthetic hand than he did in the original trilogy.
Is it sad that, given how frequent mid- or post-credits scenes are these days, that I stayed until they turned the theater lights on? (FYI, there is no such scene.)
All-in-all, I really enjoyed watching this film. Like I said earlier, it's greatest strength is that it's fun. Sure, you could make the argument that it's too similar to the original trilogy, but in my opinion, that wasn't a weakness here.
-------------------- "Kirito? I killed a thing and now it says I have XPs! Is that bad? Am I dying?"
-Asuna, Episode 2, Sword Art Online Abridged
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I liked the movie, but I didn't love it. You've picked up on some of what I didn't like, particularly the deus-ex-astromech. I'm writing up my thoughts now.
First half? Great; the bit on Han's new ship was stretching it. Fell apart in the second half. Starkiller Base was a mistake, distracted from finding Luke.
Also, Captain Phasma - the fuck? I thought she was supposed to be a badass.
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quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Also, Captain Phasma - the fuck? I thought she was supposed to be a badass.
Oh yeah, Phasma. I forgot about her. Then again, so did the movie. Honestly, if you're going to put Gwendoline "Brienne of Tarth" Christie in your movie, and give her awesome custom chrome stormtrooper armor, then you'd better use her! From what I've heard, she'll be back for Episode VIII, so she apparently got out of the garbage compactor and made it off Starkiller Base somehow.
-------------------- "Kirito? I killed a thing and now it says I have XPs! Is that bad? Am I dying?"
-Asuna, Episode 2, Sword Art Online Abridged
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I loved it too! The chemistry between Rey and Finn is excellent, as was the banter between Finn and Poe. All the familiar characters (except, well, Luke) got great character moments. The entire story borrowed all the best themes from the original trilogy without falling into the trap of outright copying. Or at least just accepting the homages. (Droid wandering across the desert carrying the plot macguffin, opening scene with Stormtroopers attacking, another super weapon, and of course, the bar scene with all the aliens!)
quote:Originally posted by Krenim: "Let's take that ship over there!" "What about that ship?" "That ship's junk!" *Good ship blows up* "Junk ship it is, then!" *Junk ship is the Millennium Falcon*
That was hands-down my favorite funny moment in the entire movie. And the escape dogfight was freaking amazing.
Kylo Ren is a much more believable villain-in-training than prequel-Anakin ever was. It's clear he's an evil badass, but that moment when the First Order underling brought the bad news (and was clearly expecting to be Force-choked), only for Kylo Ren to slice up the console with his lightsaber in a rage... well, that was scary in its own right, if only because it's clear that his darkness is mostly rage and barely channeled.
With all the speculation about Rey's parents before the film, I'd never even stopped to consider any of the other characters. I picked up on Ren/Ben's identity before it was explicitly stated, but not too early. That was nicely handled.
And of course... Han's confrontation with his son. I agree with Krenim: as soon as I realized the walkway that Ren was stalking down went across a bottomless pit, I could see where it was going. The producers and actors did a great job obscuring the plot points (and I avoided all possible spoilers), but I could read between the lines months ago. Harrison Ford said way back in Return of the Jedi that he wanted to see Han Solo killed off. It would've been nice if a well-written story was enough to draw him back, but I'd always felt that it was a well-written story with a well-written death scene that convinced Ford to put on the vest and striped pants again. I wasn't really surprised by that development. Shocked when it came, yes, but not surprised.
I really want to know more about where Snoke came from and what his motivations are. Is the First Order I suspect that will come in the next film. The plot holes there are more gaps in back story that can be filled in with the rest of the trilogy, I hope.
I think that Captain Phasma was the biggest disappointment; though I agree with Krenim that we'll probably see her again, the single biggest actual plot hole in my opinion was her lowering the shields for Han and Finn. I don't care if they had her at gunpoint, I'd think a badass Stormtrooper would absolutely refuse such a demand, and wouldn't be nearly so self-preserving.
I also agree that the timing of R2's revival was incredibly convenient, but I'm willing to overlook that for now, because I suspect there's more to Luke's disappearance.
The scenes on Han's freighter did feel slightly drawn out, but I also think that it was necessary to show how far back to his old ways he'd gone. And just like the first movie, he may have been a good smuggler, but he was terrible at talking his way out of trouble!
All in all, an excellent story. No more plot holes than the original trilogy, so much more entertainment value than the prequels. JJ Abrams and everyone else have successfully recaptured the spirit of Star Wars.
...So when is Episode VIII again?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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Firstly, considering that EU was supposedly scrapped, this movie borrows a HECK of a lot from it! Kylo Revan? Kylo Jacen Solo, prahaps?
This might be first viewing infatuation talking, but I think it's as great as Empire or ANH- it's everything I hoped for and nothing I feared 10/10 all around. DEFINITELY the best acted SW movie to date too!
Only real "downsides" are the limited number of new ship designs and some "Star Wars physics" that you'll need to seriously turn off your brain for- the Starkiller super-weapon having both FTL speed AND being somehow directed... It would have been cool to see Kylo Ren in some chamber directing the beams- like what he did with Poe's blaster bolt (and holy smokes was that a jaw-dropper!). That would re-enforce (no pun intended) Han's line about Snoke "only using you for your power". Kylo Ren seems MUCH more powerful than anything we've seen- except the three from Mortis maybe. Kylo Ren being able to pick thoughts out of a captive is something shown in CW (only more powerful, I'd guess).
Also, was the FO going to abandon the Starkiller base once the local star was exhausted? was the base somehow seperate from the planet- like a tick- and able to up and leave? That would have neen kinda neat. My roomate pointed out that the super-sized Starkiller base/planet was a bit like Abrams making the Enterprise super huge- he called Abrams a "size-queen" and I laughed.
As to the general setup of things: The FIRST ORDER is the condolidated remains of the Empire and the REPUBLIC is the worlds freed before that happened. They got on with making a new society- it's been 30 years of cold war- during which time the First Order kidnapped this generation of stormtroopers THE RESISTANCE seems to be the (unsanctioned?) Freedom fighters inside First Order space.
That's my take away, anyway
My big questions are- was the Republic fleet lost in the FO doomsday weapon attack? Dialogue seemed to suggest as much- and the Resistance, being a gorilla outfit did not seem to have any capital ships at all- hence the attack with ONLY X-Wings on the Starkiller base.
Could spell real trouble next film- as the aparant loss of the Senate and several key worlds would cause social/economic upheavals through the Republic And no fleet means only the Resistance is there to defend them. Everything seems kinda scaled down from the "thousands of systems" of the Old Republic/Empire.
My guess is that Rey is Luke's daughter- and that they left her as a child (for her safety) when the Knights of Ren were killing all Kuke's new batch of Jedi. That makes for a nice replay of Luke himself being left on a desert planet for his own safety from Jedi-hunters. Rey's connection to Luke's old lightsaber seems to be a famillial bloodline thing- and would explain why Kylo Ren could not use the force on it. It also makes for a nice family dynamic suprise without rehashing the father/son thing- they're cousins! It's worth noting that Rey's and Ren's outfits are a kinda parallel for Obi Wan and Vader's from ANH-something about the top Rey wears looks very "Jedi" to me- but then, Kenobi and Rey were both living in the desert, so simmular attire is not that unusual, I guess. I still think the costume designer did it on purpose though.
Like Krenim, I'm also hoping they explain how Luke's saber was retrieved from Cloud City. (maybe something in a tie-in movie will get into it) and yeah, it was FUN! More fun than all the prequels put together! I really love the new cast- the actors seem to have real chemistry together (though I don't know if Poe and Rey ever met).
Poe Dameron isindeed the best pilot ever- and the dogfight and TIE escape scenes were amazing. Those new TIE's are a huge improvment on the old model! And the new X-Wings have an anti-personnel cannon like the Falcon! I wonder if Han or Chewie suggested that?
Some oddball things- Phasma was...odd. I thought she'd turn out to be a deep cover Resistance agent. And I still do. Mainly because she's telling Han and Fin "This WON'T work!" not "I'll kill you!" or whatever-and she dropped the shield readily enough. Considering the fanatical nature of FO troops, that was too strange not to notice.
Was that Akbar at the conference table? Looked like him- though obviously the effects are better now and he moved much better (particularly the hands).
Also, there must be something edited out where the new star destroyer gets a bit singed at the bow during the planet's destruction (possibly saving Kylo Ren). There's a couple of toys with the front of that ship burned and mangled. Toys go into production prior to final editing most times and we sometimes get little gems like this- or characters get toys but get edited out of the movie.
It's an AWESOME addition to the SW movies- Tied with ESB in my opinion for the best!
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The first half of Star Wars: The Force Awakens is a perfect blend of new character introduction, old character reintroduction; nostalgia and freshly awakened wonder, to the point where one of the story's massive weaknesses can be pretty well ignored.
And then we get Starkiller Base.
But I'll get to that later.
Here's what I loved:
Daisy Riddle as Rey, a Force-sensitive resident of the planet Jakku who ekes a living by scavaging parts off downed Imperial Star Destroyers and Rebel ships; John Boyega as Finn, a Stormtrooper who develops a conscience on his first mission, and becomes a hero after overcoming his fear; and Oscar Isaac as Poe Dameron, the Resistance's top fighter pilot. They don't exactly fill the same shoes as Han, Leia, and Luke in the original trilogy, but they come close.
Maz Kanata, on the surface, could be easy to dismiss as a second-class Yoda: they're both long lived, both short, and both earth-toned; she's not a Jedi, but she's experienced in the Force. Oh, and she's got a lightsaber -- which she gives to Finn when Rey refuses it.
BB-8 steals the show. He's like R2, but cuter, and far more emotive. I was prepared to hate him, but he's like a cat housed in a robot, and I can't get away from how awesome he is.
How is it possible for C-3PO to become even more annoying, and why does he insist on talking about his red arm. Also, since BB-8 is actually a droid with the Resistance, does he *really* need C-3PO to explain that R2-D2 has been on shut down for ten years or so?
Wait, wait, you're asking -- what is this First Order? Didn't the Empire collapse? Yes, and there's now a Republic, and a Senate, too. The First Order is the remains of what used to be the Empire, and from dialogue in the film, it seems they and the Republic aren't at war, maybe a cold war? -- Hux mentions that the Republic is secretly funding and supporting the Resistance, which supports this theory.
Now we get to the stuff I didn't like. Look, after Star Trek Into Darkness, I can't say I expect originality or thoughtfulness, necessarily, from JJ Abrams, but what the hell was Lawrence Kasdan doing?
The opening crawl of this film promises that we'll be looking for Luke Skywalker, who vanished many years prior, the cause of his retreat we later learn to be the betrayal of his student, Ben Solo (Ben Organa?), the son of Han and Leia, who was turned to the Dark Side by the First Order's Supreme Hologram Snoke. And for the first half of the film, we look for Luke, and on the way, our new heroes (Stormtrooper turned Rebel Finn, scavanger Rey, and hot shot pilot Poe Dameron) find each other, as well as Han and Chewbacca, the Millennium Falcon (great introduction, and the only one that didn't feel forced), General Leia, C-3PO, R2-D2, and some old standbys like Admiral Ackbar and Nien Nunb (who only appears in the background).
And then, again, we get to the Starkiller Base, which is basically a planet turned into a Death Star, because no one in the Empire or First Order can be bothered to study history and keep thinking super-weapons are a brilliant idea: no, really guys, just build more Star Destroyers. Somewhere there's a financial guy screaming "ROI YOU NERF HERDERS!" And no one on the writing staff, apparently, could think of a convincing threat more severe than yet another spin on a Star Wars super-weapon -- but isn't the threat to Luke enough? If the First Order gets to him first, he's dead, and the hope for the resurrection of the Jedi is gone forever -- how is THAT not a much bigger threat than a new take on a Death Star?
The entire thing -- the entire Starkiller -- is a total distraction. What purpose this part of the plot served, I don't know, and there was nothing in it that (well, except the Falcon jumping out of lightspeed into an atmosphere and crashing through a forest) couldn't be transferred to the First Order's Star Destroyer, and worked just as well. Big climactic space battle? Resistance X-Wings attacking a Star Destroyer instead of a planet.
Starkiller Base was only one thing.
The movie starts with Poe Dameron retrieving a fragment of a map from Max Von Sydow, an ally of the Resistance whose past is never really explained -- it's okay, though, he dies pretty quickly and the story forgets about the map about an hour later so who cares.
But the map makes no sense. We know from the previous films that the Old Republic (which the Empire replaced) existed for thousands of years. And before that? Probably space travel for thousands of years before the Republic became the galactic political force. So in thousands of years, are you telling me that a complete, charted map of the galaxy doesn't exist, especially with how quickly the Falcon seems to hyperspace from location to location? So if you've got a map of the galaxy lying around, and you've got a fragment from Mr. Exorcist, wouldn't it be simpler to take your fragment, plug in some astromechs, and have them just see where in their galactic maps the fragment appears to align with charted stars and planets?
I mean, seriously, such a huge deal is made about why they need "the rest of the map" by both sides that it's like, "How exactly are you guys making sure your calculate your light-speed jumps so you don't jump too close to a star, or into a supernova, eh?"
This leads to the third big thing that I disliked about the film. I'll call it deus-ex-astromech. The film established that after Luke vanished, R2-D2 went into low-power mode. Well, after Starkiller base has been killed, for no apparent reason, R2 powers up and provides the rest of the galactic map which leads Rey and Chewie to find Luke within about two minutes.
Where's Han? Oh, he's dead. Killed by his bratty kid. And given how much you probably know Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in Empire, and then Jedi, you probably figured that JJ Abrams promising to kill the character was the only way Ford agreed to come back.
Finally ... Captain Phasma, who we first meet when she lectures Finn on removing his helmet while on duty, and who then disappears pretty much entirely until near the end, where Finn, Han, and Chewie take her prisoner, get her to take down Starkiller Base's shields, and then throw her down a trash chute; so much for the bad-ass Captain Phasma, this First Order loyalist doesn't even attempt to resist, or die for the cause.
You may think I hated the film from this review. I didn't. I liked it just fine. But I wanted to love it ... and I just don't. I remain ever optimistic about Episodes VIII and IX, as well as for Rogue One, which'll be in theaters this time next year. And I look forward to seeing more of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker in the next films ... even with the knowledge that, like his smuggler friend, he might get killed off.
quote:My big questions are- was the Republic fleet lost in the FO doomsday weapon attack? Dialogue seemed to suggest as much- and the Resistance, being a gorilla outfit did not seem to have any capital ships at all- hence the attack with ONLY X-Wings on the Starkiller base.
No -- the FO weapon only took out planets in the same system. The second attack, which they were preparing for, might've targeted the Republic. IIRC, I think the dialogue references the Resistance pilots targeting the Starkiller WITHOUT support from the Republic Fleet which does not openly support the Resistance.
quote:Was that Akbar at the conference table? Looked like him- though obviously the effects are better now and he moved much better (particularly the hands).
Yes! Yhat was Ackbar! And the Sullustan seen was Nien Nunb, although neither got quite the acknowledgement they deserved and WHERE THE HELL IS LANDO.
posted
This was a great film that worked hard to immerse you into the universe, unlike the prequels which seemed to play solely on your nostalgia to get you to care. Characters talked and acted like real people. Pacing was good. I was never bored, and the action didn't feel tacked on but came on naturally as the story progressed.
Solo's death hit me hard, he was my favorite character. But I see his son as being the anti-Luke. Son of a politician and ace pilot who goes on to learn the ways of the force from an old Jedi. Yet unlike Luke, Benny Ren strays from the light side. His strained relationship with father leads him to the dark side, and when given to opportunity to kill him, he does so without mercy unlike Luke with Vader. Yet I wish more had been said about Han dying. There's no memorial to a Hero of the Rebellion at the end; there should have been.
Ironically, I actually wish we had more space politics. What could the First Order have or the New Republic lack that would make either of them avoid open confrontation. It seemed the Resistance, and by extension the Republic, were unaware of Starkiller. So why the Cold War-like proxy wars? Moreover, Snoke seems to be using the First Order as front for something more sinister. He didn't seem too bothered by the bases destruction.
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My roomate avoided all spoilers but still called Solo's death- because Ford wanted that in RTOJ.
I think the implication of Ren's killing his father was that it was the last of his light going out- I feel like if Han had hugged him and told him he loved him, he might have been saved
Great filmmaking to have the light die just then
I still don't see the point to the Starkiller I'd it can't move- how many years did that take to make? Why not just blow the star (assuming they can, if they can divert and contain it!) Indtead of all that shooting? Once the star dies, the system would rapidly die as well
Like I said, you need to turn your brain off a bit.
I really liked that the Starkiller planet took time to blow up- I hope some future SE does that for the Death Stars- I always found their "pop" deaths cringeworthy
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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I also wonder if Starkiller base is carved into the planet, or just some space station poorly disguised as a planet? I would say its likely the former, but the questionable decision making skills of the First Order don't rule out the latter. Also it would dovetail with the notion of the base being able to move. Finn made a comment that suggested it might have drained other stars, and that would be hard to do if it was immobile. Also I find it hard for the star draining mechanism and firing mechanism to work with the planet still having a core. I mean why not use geothermal energy to power the weapon instead?
Also I hope they don't try to redeem Kylo Ren. Make him an irredeemable asshole to the end, not just because he killed Solo, but because it would undermine the gutsy move to kill Solo if he turns good guy in a later film.
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Listening to the EXCELLENT audiobook version of TFA and it really explains quite a lot -the Starkiller base was indeed a secret from everyone -the Starkiller weapon uses dark matter jargon to fire it's beam (and split it) through a new "sub-hyperspace" -yes, the weapon destroyed the Republic Senate world AND the fleet- leaving only the Resistance to retaliate
It also explains a lot about Rey- Rey's suddenly being capable with her inate force ability stems from her mental struggle with Kylo Ren. She was inside his mind and pulled out a lot of his skill sets while fishing around in there.
There's also stuff cut from the movie- gangsters from Jakku show up to cause trouble in the bar scene- one of whom loses his arm when Chewie rips it out.
They also explain in detail how Poe Dameron survives and gets back to the Resistance.
Definitely a worthwhile and entertaining listen!
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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More goodies from the book- the First Order, while fanatical, are very young and green in emergencies The Resistance has several Alliance pilots with lots of experience- Nein Nub is now Red Leader
Computers have evolved and miniaturization has blossomed- Poe (Black Leader) slaves all the X-Wings to his ship and makes a course adjustment FROM HYPERSPACE. Just like that, the Intridictor becomes obsolete
Kylo Ren has never seen the Millennium Falcon! After crashing it on the Starkiller world, it's found by TIE patrols and Ren investigates. He senses Rey and suspects more but that's all So I guess the Falcon was stolen soon after RTOJ
Han and Finn seal the shield control room when leaving-probably with the lightsaber. When the FO blow the door, they learn the controls inside are shot to hell. The system control can be re-routed to the main control room, but it takes too long and the Resistance are attacking by then.
Finn uses his knowledge of the base to seal the blast doors to the pilots barracks- keeping most TIEs grounded as the Resistance attack begins. Doesn't last though
Hux is a MUCH better commander than Kylo Ren- understanding that yelling and threatening crew does not make them work better. Hux orders seekers (missiles) launched- they're indiscriminate though and he reasons that it's not the time to worry about collateral damage.
Finn worries about killing stormtroopers- he's very aware of his past Rey is much more involved in getting them into the oscillation base- her years if scavenging Imperial tech pays off bigtime.
In the big Ren/Rey lightsaber duel a couple of clarifications- Ren realizes who Rey is (really), Rey slashes him across the head, chest -leaving a scortch mark across his face (gonna need that madk now- good foresight) and then... Snoke reaches out to Rey- telepathicly urging her to kill Ren! She recoils from the darkside and then it's like the movie chasm opening between the two (heavy symbolism) and all that jazz
[ January 02, 2016, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: -yes, the weapon destroyed the Republic Senate world AND the fleet- leaving only the Resistance to retaliate
Okay, now I'm confused.
When I was watching the movie, my first thought was that Starkiller Base destroyed Coruscant. It looked a lot like Coruscant, both in the space and the ground shots.
A bit later, they name the system that was destroyed. I don't remember the name, but it wasn't Coruscant.
Now the novelization is stating that this system was indeed home to the Republic Senate? I mean, sure, I can come up with a few reasons why that might be so, but now I'm curious as to why it's not Coruscant.
-------------------- "Kirito? I killed a thing and now it says I have XPs! Is that bad? Am I dying?"
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I was puzzled by that too. I assume that they decided to set up a new capital on a different world. Maybe Coruscant has too much baggage, being both the capital of the oppressive Empire and the capital of the failed Republic with its suffocating bureaucracy. And maybe Coruscant wasn't ever captured from the Empire, or wasn't captured until after the New Republic had set up its government.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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