posted
This one could also be in the Enterprise forum, but I think it's techy enough to be discussed here.
Now that we'll get to see what Starfleet is flying in the 2150s, we will be faced with the fact that the Daedalus class is in fact really puny as far as starships go. Clearly, it will be difficult to pretend it's the top dog of the 2160-2190 period. So it could be time to rethink the whole concept of the Daedalus class now.
The Essex is the only canonically known example of the Daedalus class, and even then we lack visual identification. So there are a lot of options on how to deal with the ships we THOUGHT were Daedaloi - from more severe to less so:
1) Essex is a Daedalus, as canonically stated, but looks completely different from the conjectural pictures, and is well armed and armored. Horizon is the only one that looks like the baseball-and-beer-can, as per the tabletop model, but she is not Daedalus class. Archon is something utterly else altogether, and potentially also big and bad.
2) Essex is a Daedalus and so is Horizon. Given their similar registries, they are likely to share a class. Thus, both must look like the Horizon tabletop model. Archon is a different ship, possibly more powerful.
3) All the ships are indeed just like speculated in the Encyclopedia. They just aren't very powerful for their era. They are more akin to Oberths, and the seeming lack of weapon ports is in fact because the ships do not HAVE weapons.
4) All the ships are just like speculated in the Encyclopedia, and they are indeed the primary ships of their day. Starfleet just went wimpy for a while. Or perfected miniaturization, and then forgot about it.
The second theory appeals to me the most. I'd hate to lose the tabletop design, but I'd also hate to think of it in a major role now that we know that Starfleet had bigger and more modern things from day one (or, rather, from year minus-ten). There is nothing in "Power Play" to suggest that the Essex was not a meek Oberth-like surveyor, now is there? Nor are the capabilities of the Archon or the Horizon clearly outlined in the episodes.
Just like Oberths look somewhat antiquated in the TOS movie era, so the Daedaloi could be old designs dating from before the "saucer era" that was begun by NX-01. Size-wise, they are similar to the supposed Enterprise class as Oberths are to the Constitution class...
posted
Why #2 and not #3? They're the same, except for the assumption in #2 that the Archon is different. There's no reason for this, so #3 appeals more to me...
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Mainly because it seems unreasonable to assume that ALL the starships lost in that time period would be from a single class, let alone from the "Oberth class" of the day. This was a suspect choice originally, and all the more suspect now. Earlier we could claim that Starfleet lacked the resources to send anything more than their top designs to deep space, so only those ships would disappear. Now that we know that to be untrue, I think we should go for diversity wherever we can.
And by making the Archon more akin to the Constitutions of the day than to an Oberth, we'd be continuing the TOS tradition of having mainly the best and biggest ships (Exeter, Defiant, Constellation) get into trouble or disappear. That would nicely separate the show from TNG, where the smallest and dinkiest ships were the ones to get into trouble (apart from the hero ship, of course).
When Mike originally labeled all the old ships as Daedalus class, he was sorely lacking in alternatives - note he never tried to think up a fictional class for the USS Valiant, even if that strange NCC-1226 popped up from somewhere. Now that there are alternatives upcoming, I think he should rethink the decision and retcon the canonically unconfirmed parts.
posted
Just out of curiosity, how does the pre-Ent stack up to the Daedalus size-wise, Timo?
I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Starfleet had more than one type of really solid design around the time of the Daedalus. I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Daedalus wasn't the top of the line. I mean, the pre-Ent is going to be getting into all kinds of trouble every couple weeks or so and not crash land on a moon, or get lost or anything... My point is, I think it's completely possible that, even though the Daedalus is newer than the pre-Ent, it may have about the same level of toughness...
posted
"That would nicely separate the show from TNG, where the smallest and dinkiest ships were the ones to get into trouble (apart from the hero ship, of course)."
And the rest of the Galaxy class ships. Yamoto, Oddysey, Enterprise; they lost half their original ships in less than ten years. Not a good thing for a design tht was suppossed to last a century...
How big is the Daedalus anyway? I'd bet that if we do see any Daedalus', they'll look slighty different (read = better/newer) than they do in the Encyclopdia.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
posted
Don't forget, the USS Galaxy got shot up pretty bad in "Tears of the Prophets." I think that maybe whatever the Pre-Ent's class was, it was too costly to produce many of with the Romulan Wars going on and limited resources they had, so they designed a simpler Daedalus class vessel. Whereas the Enterprise may be a warship (from the looks) the Daedalus class was an explorer design, like the TOS Enterprise.
posted
Why can't we alternatively just IGNORE everything pertaining to and around 'Enterprise' - it doesn't even have Star Trek in the title... I'd go TAS over ENT... in terms of canonicity.
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
quote:What about that ship in TAS that was supposed to be the first ship with warp drive that looked like an overweight connie.
You mean this? The S.S. Bonaventure NCC-S2100. It's supposed to be the first STARFLEET ship with warp drive. (Not that Ent isn't going to blow that to hell...) And it happens to be one of my favorite ship designs. Overweight Connie, my ass! this is exactly what a Pre-TOS ship should look like, not some anorexic Akira! Smaller, a little bulkier, but still recognizable.
[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Speaking subjectively of course, that ship looks like it took more than a few whacks from the ugly stick. A regular beat-down, really.
-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
In the TAS episode it was featured in, Scotty makes the statement ,"There's the old Bonaventure, the first ship to have warp drive installed." Scotty does NOT say that it was the first Starfleet ship w/ WD, but the FIRST SHIP. Period.
Of course, First Contact changes this to the Phoenix, which is a good thing. A very good thing. Because the ship looks too much like the Enterprise to have been built in 2063 or whenever. And it's ugly. (In TAS's defense, I'm sure no one was really figuring things out chronologically like Okuda would later do.)
Now if you want to take Scotty's statement figuratively instead of literally, then you might say that he meant that the Bonaventure was the first Starfleet ship. It makes much more sense. Although the ship still remains ugly.
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
quote: Reverend: Erm... The Phoenix was very much not a Starfleet ship.
quote: In the TAS episode it was featured in, Scotty makes the statement ,"There's the old Bonaventure, the first ship to have warp drive installed." Scotty does NOT say that it was the first Starfleet ship w/ WD, but the FIRST SHIP. Period.
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