posted
Hi, I was directed to this forum through some link on G2k's ST vs SW site... Been reading through his stuff for a few days now, entertaining stuff! Shot off a few feedbacks too, got a reply to one, which I should be proud of considering the amount of feedback he probably gets.
I did a quick keyword search for "genesis" torpedo... and came up with zilch. I hope this posting isn't redundant
If my foggy memory recalls properly, it was some kind of torpedo-delivered device that could "reorganize matter" on a planetary scale. The Reliant was looking for some lifeless planet to test the torpedo on...
I guess I'll start this discussion with some open questions,
1. Was the genesis torpedo ever mentioned after ST:II and ST:III in canon? Non-canon? 2. Since they were looking for a lifeless planet to "reorganize matter" on, do you think that the torpedo depends only on the amount of mass in the vicinity to create life? For example, the genesis torpedo seemed to affect the nebula, and the planetoid, even though they were pretty far from the planet. 3. What level of access do you think Starfleet personnel needed to have to know about the project? Could, for example, Janeway have replicated a genesis torpedo in the Delta quadrant while she was a lowly Captain? 4. Could the genesis torpedo be replicated? Was Khan's failure to replicate the genesis torpedo because there was some component that could not be replicated, or because he lacked the design schematics to do so? 5. Could reorganization of matter be accomplished on any target? I am thinking of certain "banned" weapons... warp weapons in ST:Insurrection the Son'a seemed to have. Do you think the "genesis" torpedo was banned, or just that the information was kept confidential?
I would have more questions, but don't want to spam everybody with them... yet I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this potentially most devestating weapon in Star Trek... G2k you should really think of putting up a page about the Genesis device!
posted
Okay I promised I wouldn't spam yet, but some quick ideas just came to my head that I don't want to forget...
1. In ST:III, I remember the Klingon guy obtaining exactly the same recording that Kirk showed to Spock and McCoy in ST:II... so either the schematics weren't complete enough for the Klingon to replicate in that video, or there was some component that couldn't be replicated.
2. Does anyone have a good blow up of the schematic of the genesis torpedo? Better yet, can someone with a DVD version of the movies and an AV cable hooked up to their computer host the small video? It would be nice to see some screenshots... maybe it would be possible to extrapolate the size/volume/mass of the planetoid from the video, and determine a potential high/low yield ranges...
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
That's not really spamming- just requesting. The schematic you describe would have been just a generalization of components: notthing that would describe how those components were built.
I've not seen any scareenshot of that image though.
Do a search (in the upper right hand corner of the page) for "Genesis" to find the eleventy billion threads on the Genesis Device thus far here at Flare. And welcome to Flare.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
The Genesis project was mentioned briefly in the Voyager episode "The Omega Directive." Other than that, I think Star Trek II, III, and IV are the only canon that deal with it.
-------------------- "Kirito? I killed a thing and now it says I have XPs! Is that bad? Am I dying?"
-Asuna, Episode 2, Sword Art Online Abridged
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Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
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posted
1. It was mentioned on Voyager? I just remember something about a Regula-type starbase where they tried to create an Omega-particle which caused the destruction of subspace in that area (or something like that; never payed attention to the "science" on that show). But I believe they mentioned it early on TNG.
2. As far as I understood it, the reorganisation caused the creation of a new planet, regardless if the material used was from a nebula or a planetoid. As long as there was enough of it, it really didn't matter. Furthermore, it didn't create any life, did it? It just created an environment that could sustain life.
3. Obviously, the video was not that highly classified (I guess they screened it at scientific congresses or used it to convince the council to fund the project). The real data about the project however probably wasn't even available to Kirk.
4./5. The thing didn't work from the start (they used protomatter; it worked, but it all collapsed after a short time). And it obviously wasn't that efficient as a weapon, either. Not very precise (at least not if your name isn't Emperor Palpatine and your sick hobby is blowing away Rebel planets), and not very useful either. Take a couple of quantum torpedos or a biogenetic weapon instead. Think of the Transwarp drive or the advanced cloaking; we didn't see them again, although they did work (one was sabotaged, the other one was just used by someone incompetent).
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
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The Genesis device did actually create life as Dr. carol marcus states: "the lifeforms developed later at a gtreatly accelerated rate..."
For killin' on a grand scale, I'd go with biogenics, subspace weapons or the ol' solar flare trick the Klingons pulled. That "shoot protomatter into the sun to mkae it go nova" was pretty slick as well.
Who needs the Death Star anyway?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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The makeup of this threadtitle attracts me. I can't describe it but it is funny.
Welcome to Flare, Brian Eyci. About the Genesis Torpedo, it was a prototype, restricted to that science station and that work crew, so kind of unique. And it was invented as a terraforming device, as we all know. Of course, so was dynamite originally. :.) Anyway, Khan was in dire need of som reschooling, having been out of the loop for some time (!), besides, the main thought occupying his mind was cold, slimy revenge, so he wouldn't be doing any microbiology studies in the near future.
What was that "forbidden" component that David Skywalker had used to finish the Genesis-cocktail, when it wouldn't work the conventional way? Was it Deuterium? Unobtainium?
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
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posted
There was some oblique reference to Genesis in an early TNG episode too. "Home Soil," first or second season. A terraformer making snide comments about what happens when you try to take shortcuts with planetary engineering.
And welcome! Don't let the hazing get to you, it will pass.
Browsing through Dixon's fandom-timeline, there are several non-canon references to Genesis.
According to "The Ashes Of Eden", Starfleet disposed of all it's protomatter after the Genesis incident.
FASA has some tensions between the Klingons and the Federation erupting because the Klingons believe that the UFP has 'Genesis torpedoes'.
Then there's the "Genesis Wave" series of novels. It introduces a 'Genesis Nonproliferation Treaty', and does some stuff with a rebooted Genesis Project.
I'm not really into novels, so I'm sure someone else can tell you more interesting things.
posted
Recall that, even in the movies, the Klingons had their panties all in a bunch about the Federation's creation of an ultimate weapon. So evidently, they were worried about its use in that capacity.
I recall someone, I think Janeway, mentioning Carol Marcus along with other scientists. It may have been in the Omega Directive, but I can't remember which ep.
As to why Khan couldn't replicate the Genesis Device, replicator tech wasn't nearly as advanced back then, if it existed at all. It also seems highly unlikely that protomatter is able to be replicated.
quote:Originally posted by Topher: The Genesis Wave series is crap. I only read the first two, but it was enough.
I cant concievably agree more: total shit were those novels and if I could, I would excise the experience of having read them from my life.
Really, just avoid anything written by John Vornholt or Peter david and you'll probably get a good read from recent Trek novels. Stick to the DS9 novels.
To summarize; the novel states that Dr. Carol Marcus is still alive in the post-DS9 era and has been under house arrest for the past century for "knowing too much". Not only really stupid, but completely not what Trek/ Starfleet is about.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
I'd also avoid Susan Wright's 'novels'. She's constantly showing off that she has read the Chronology and Encycolopedia, and forgets she actually has to write something new.
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
quote:Originally posted by Harry: I'd also avoid Susan Wright's 'novels'. She's constantly showing off that she has read the Chronology and Encycolopedia, and forgets she actually has to write something new.
I was able to obtain a copy of "Badlands, Part 1". Wasn't that spectacular at all (worse than the second part, at least the Voyager story in that volume was entertaining), but that's exactly what really annoyed me. She tries to be smart but gets half of the facts wrong anyway. If she wants to impress Okuda and Sternbach, se should write a real tech book.
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
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quote: 1. It was mentioned on Voyager? I just remember something about a Regula-type starbase where they tried to create an Omega-particle which caused the destruction of subspace in that area (or something like that; never payed attention to the "science" on that show). But I believe they mentioned it early on TNG.
Protomatter was also mentioned in DS9 "Second Sight" and "By Inferno's Light". Both times, it was used for "helioforming" rather than "terraforming" - that is, to manipulate stars rather than planets. Seemed to work just fine in turning a "dead" star into a sunlike live one, and was supposed to work just fine in turning a sunlike live star into a nova...
quote: 2. As far as I understood it, the reorganisation caused the creation of a new planet, regardless if the material used was from a nebula or a planetoid. As long as there was enough of it, it really didn't matter.
We don't really know. In the promo video, a pre-existing moon was transformed only on the surface, and very thinly so: the mountain ranges stayed unaltered, for example. And if the torpedo was tuned to do the same to its intended test planet, then it probably did that to some unintended planet in the Regula system when Khan detonated it, rather than turn nebular matter into a planet.
quote: Furthermore, it didn't create any life, did it? It just created an environment that could sustain life.
Depends. We never heard of Carol or David planting all those ferns in the Genesis Cave. Instead, we were supposed to think that the Genesis effect had created the ferns, as well as the birdlike critters in the cave.
On the Genesis Planet, only the giant bugs in Spock's coffin were said to have mutated from pre-existing life. The other life there presumably grew out of nothing, created by Genesis either via some sort of super-rapid evolution, or then instantaneously, without any evolution.
Certainly, there wouldn't have been time for life to develop on its own in either case. Barely one generation of each lifeform would have lived before our heroes came.
quote: 3. Obviously, the video was not that highly classified (I guess they screened it at scientific congresses or used it to convince the council to fund the project). The real data about the project however probably wasn't even available to Kirk.
So why was the promo video part "eyes only" (literally!), if the retina scan didn't give Kirk access to anything more than the pretty pictures? I rather think the whole concept of Genesis was top secret, and the promo video was awaiting the moment Carol could finally make her "proposal" openly.
quote: 4./5. The thing didn't work from the start (they used protomatter; it worked, but it all collapsed after a short time).
Well, the Genesis Cave experiment seemed to work just fine. We don't know how long before the movie the Phase Two experiment had been started, but it probably was at least a couple of months prior, because the Marcuses wouldn't have begun the search for a Phase Three planet until they knew their device worked.
quote: And it obviously wasn't that efficient as a weapon, either. Not very precise (at least not if your name isn't Emperor Palpatine and your sick hobby is blowing away Rebel planets), and not very useful either. Take a couple of quantum torpedos or a biogenetic weapon instead.
Well, if you want to eliminate a whole planetful of enemies, a single torpedo sounds like a better weapon than a "couple" of torpedoes, never mind the warhead type.
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I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about this potentially most devestating weapon in Star Trek... G2k you should really think of putting up a page about the Genesis device!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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