posted
What did you guys think of the continuity? I think Episode III in general did very well in terms of matching up the story threads with the original films. I watched "The Empire Strikes Back" again the other day and didn�t see too many blunders.
The main one I saw, and it�s not unexplainable, was when Luke was getting ready to leave Dagobah to save the others in Cloud City. Obi-Wan appears and together he and Yoda try to convince Luke to stay and finish his training. When Luke takes off, Obi-Wan says to Yoda, "That boy is our last hope" or something like that, and Yoda replies, "No, there is another." This struck me as a bit strange as... $ $ $ $$ $ $ $$ $ $ $$ $ $ $ $ $$ $ $ $ $$ $ $ $ $$ $ $ $ $ ...Obi-Wan was actually there when Padme gave birth, and saw the twins. Unless he didn�t know about Leia assumed the girl was killed on Alderaan...
-------------------- "Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"
The Battle of the Pelennor Fields.
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posted
Perhaps Obi Wan was unaware that Leia would be strong enough with the Force to defeat Vader and the Emperor. Or maybe Obi Wan was aware of the short time that Yoda had to live and was concerned that Leia would never have the opportunity to receive the kind of training Luke had.
Of a larger concern to me is Leia's recollection of her real mother. At least as far as Episode III goes, Luke was shown to have spent more time with Padme than Leia, and that was a only a few moments. I'm sure one could come up with a Force-related explanation, but it seems kind of odd that Lucas didn't suggest such a thing with meaningful closeups showing a connection between mother and daughter or something.
One wonders if Lucas a)didn't feel like he had enough time to explain the inconsistancies, b)didn't think anyone would notice (with 30 years of experience with the fans, that's not likely), c)didn't want to deal with them, or d)wanted to give the fans something to think about and novel writers something to fill in. I vote for d) since Lucas probably gets some sort of royalties for all those novels and is thus motivated to give the fans reasons to read them.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
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quote:Originally posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh: Obi-Wan says to Yoda, "That boy is our last hope" or something like that, and Yoda replies, "No, there is another."
Why I agree that this is a contradiction, it really isn't Episode III's contradiction. RotJ had already made it seem very unlikely that Obi-Wan didn't know about Leia. I would have been surprised if Lucas had manipulated the styoryline in Episode III so that Obi-Wan didn't know that Padme gave birth to twins.
Obi-Wan was just senile. ESB cut off the rest of his conversation with Yoda:
Obi-Wan: That boy is our last hope. Yoda: No, there is another. Obi-Wan: There is? Yoda: The girl. Obi-Wan: Girl? Yoda: The girl! Vader's other child. You were there when Padme gave birth. Remember? Obi-Wan: Yes. Yoda: Good. Obi-Wan: Who are you?
-------------------- "Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It?s us. Only us." Rorschach
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I vote for the thought that Obi-Wan simply didn't consider Leia to be in a position to be of any use. She would never be able to be trained by a living Jedi. Qui Gon has apparently been chatting with Obi Wan all this time, too, and it seems likely that the two of them were focusing all their attention on Luke's potential. It's possible that Yoda had been keeping closer tabs on Leia and saw some potential there that Obi Wan didn't.
Though I agree that Yoda's statement and it's cryptic nature lose all meaning having now seen eps 1-3.
posted
True, but I'd file that under the same catagory as "episodes 1-3 ruin the fact that Vadar is Luke's father". Most people know that Leia is Luke's sister, so why play it for a surprise in the prequels?
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Especially since in Episode VI, Ben is the one that tells Luke he has a sister.
So, either Ben never considered Leia as an option, or he forgot about her or Yoda filled him in after Luke left Dabobah in Episode V.
Regardless, with Ben's sudden knowledge in Jedi, the apparent contradiction existed before Episode III.
Moving on... my wife and I watched Episode IV Monday night. It was interesting to watch it now after seeing Episodes I-III. Gives a different perspective to what the characters are thinking, etc...
Also cool when you last see Vader in III he's on the proto-SD, and then he makes his grand entrance in IV. We last see the droids on the Tantavie and then IV opens with them on the Tantavie.
posted
A few questions and vaguely continuity-related comments from a moderately awestruck recent viewer:
-What was the logic of Bail Organa telling Antilles to wipe C-3PO's memory, but not R2-D2's? It's a rather major continuity issue, and a really cheap cop-out for an explanation when not extrapolated upon.
-Was that supposed to be Tarkin, conversing briefly with Vader and Palpatine and then departing as we zoom in on them as they ogle the DS construction site? The facial structure is suggestive, even if they didn't actually get a Cushing cameo. The all-"human" crew is good continuity, but again is left unexplained. Are these clones, or perhaps descendants of clones, substituted for unreliable "naturals" and other alien thrash?
-With Organa in apparent exile, how come he retains Senator status so that Leia still tries to play that card in IV? What does Palpatine gain by not declaring him traitor and outlaw?
-Why no baby Solo, suggestively clad in ANH'ish clothing and smartassing his way to our hearts?
-I was impressed by the number and quality of "transitional" Republic/Empire spacecraft designs. All the superfluous moving parts in the "incidental" vehicles got a bit tiresome towards the end, though. Grievous' escape ship (the one confiscated by Obi-Wan) was the most annoying, with that little widget astern wiggling just for the sake of wiggling.
-Loved the imaginative planetary sets that lamentably got too little continuous screen time to act as mood pieces in most cases. (The part about Padm� and Anakin "watching" each other from the Two Towers on Coruscant was good stuff, though, and one of the few non-cringeworthy scenes for the two.) Apparently, Tatooine gets a lot less prosperous in the following years, making Jabba an embittered mountain hermit rather than an urbane and urban crime lord - but the "livening up" of the planet in the revamped IV pretty much ruins that impression.
-Funny to see the same medical droid type sew together ol' Vader in III and heal Luke in V...
-Was Mrs Organa supposed to be the "mother" that Leia barely remembers in VI? Or did Leia have "postmonitions" about Padm�? Will Mrs Organa (what was her name?) stop smiling at some point, and be killed? EU experts, help!
posted
The answers to the questions I know (or think I know) the answers to:
Wiping 3Po's memory was a comedy point, no doubt, but also because 3PO is rather talkative and somewhat less trustworthy than our favorite Astromech. At some point, though, 3PO will have to be given a job operating binary load lifters... probably in the service of Captain Antilles.
Yes, that was Tarkin.
I don't think Organa is in exile. Does anyone even know that he helped the Jedi? The Senate stayed active until the beginning of Ep 4. Organa was probably the senator for some time until Leia took over the position for him.
Baby Solo would've just been groan-worthy.
Didn't notice the wiggling widget on Grievous' ship... but I had a hard time following where all the ships came from.
I believe that Leia's "memories" about her real mother are Force echos of some kind which her adoptive parents do well not to expound upon. They certainly aren't about to tell her that she's really Vader's daughter.
posted
R2 is far more trustworthy to keep his mouth shut than 3PO. Everyone knows he's a blabberbouth, even Organa.
This is acutally a key continuity point. In ANH 3PO states he does not know where he is. At this time he's standing in the Lars homestead, a place where he spent a lot of time in between Ep I & II. He should have recognized the place and the name Skywalker. He doesn't. Obviously something had to happen to erase those memories.
When they crash on Tatooine, R2 takes off and knows exactly which way to go. Later, while Luke eats dinner, R2 takes off again. This is one little droid with a mission. It's obvious he knows where to go.
Another point of possible contradiction: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father in the Clone Wars..." From Ep III it didn't really look like Kenobi was in the service of Bail Organa. Continuity glitch or an embelishment/confusion of facts between Bail and Leia (little Leia thinks her daddy is the King and everyone must have served him...)
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posted
Leia could be expressing the idea that Obi-Wan fought for the Republic and its ideals, and thus nominally was under the command of the Senate - this in contrast to fighting on the Separatist side (I'd think many of Leia's acquaintances from IV on would actually be ex-Separatists), or for the selfish goals of the Chancellor, both of which could be common beliefs when a propaganda-saturated Empire citizen speaks of the ex-Jedi. Saying that Obi-Wan served Bail Organa shows that Leia is in on the actual events, and thus inspires confidence from the first sentence of the message.
I accept the necessity of having C-3PO wiped, but I still don't quite get why our little Astromech whistle-blower didn't get the same treatment. Even if R2's trustworthier, he's still just a droid, and why not err on the side of safety? Even if he was wiped, IV could still play out just fine, since the whereabouts of Kenobi could have been programmed into R2 for this particular mission. But I accept that it's dramatically better than he actually remembers things. I'd just have preferred a more involved plot twist that would have saved R2 from the mindwipe - perhaps the clever little trash bin could have managed to fool Antilles somehow during the process?
Yeah, the point about Organa's conspirator role remaining secret from Palpatine is a good one. Even if the clone troopers who encountered him at the Jedi Temple report on him, they will only tell of a meek departure and a failure lift a finger to assist the Jedi kid.
One final question, prompted by the utter inability of most of the "actors" to actually emote: was Owen Lars supposed to be turning his back on Obi-Wan for some reason, or was he striking that idiotic Luke-lookalike pose on the ridge just for the sake of looking stupid? Was he supposed to hate or fear the idea of sheltering the little future rebel, only melting when he got to actually see the baby? Or did he hold a grudge against the Jedi for Anakin once having stolen his bike?
posted
I think it's a combination. From theend of Episode 2, Organa seems to have some kind of oversight of the military. So in a general way, Obi Wan, and all the Jedi, were probably under his command. Or at least under Senatorial oversight. The roles may also have been embellished slightly for Leia's benefit to impress upon her the fact that Kenobi could be trusted.
posted
Surely the largest nitpicky thing between the two sets is how everyone is scared that Anakin will not be a good Jedi because he is too old when they find him, and how when it comes time to train the next super awesome Jedi they just leave him alone for 18 years. I mean, what exactly was the big plan again? Wouldn't it make more sense for Yoda and Obi-Won to both sneak off to Dagobah with the infants and raise them up in proper Jedi fashion?
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WizArtist II
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posted
Well, proper Jedi fashion sure didn't do the ones of Ep. III any good did it?
Besides, what was Yoda waiting for? He was insistent that Luke was too old to begin the training and he spoke of "Another". Well how long was he just going to wait in Planet Louisiana till some magical 5 year old flew to him to be trained?
Doesn't Luke say that he is "The Last Jedi" in Ep. VI? Yoda, chokes/laughs.... like "dude, you don't know how many others are out there hiding". I always had the feeling that there was quite a number that hid that would pop their heads up after Palpy does the Nasty Plunge. And then there is still that "other Hope".
-------------------- There are 10 types of people in the world...those that understand Binary and those that don't.
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posted
So I was thinking about The Force and obfuscation. (I love that sentence. Anyway) No, but I was thinking that first Senator, then Chancellor Palpatine is the purest embodiment of Dark Side/Sith power there is, and yet here Yoda and Mace Windu were sitting across the table from him at how many meetings? And I was thinking that perhaps if Palpy wasn't actively using The Force, they weren't able to see him for what he was. Like as anyone uses The Force, for good or ill, that creates a ripple which other Force-users can detect if they are sensitive to it. So as long as he remained relatively still, they would mistake him for a mundane.
Likewise perhaps if Kenobi, Yoda and the twins were all practicing their lightsaber throwing and Force-pushes in the swamps, Vader and the Emperor would be able to sense them and find them out before they were ready. So the plan was to lay low not only in terms of keeping out of sight, but also minimizing their active Force use. Or something. I'm just talking out my ass.
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posted
It was repeated several times in both AOTC and the "Clone Wars" miniseries that Yoda, Windu and others had started losing their touch with prescience, feeling the Dark Side "shrouding" everything.
So what Palpatine did was act as a Force inhibitor, while at the same time working to hamstring and manipulate the Council as much as possible without being called on it, choosing Anakin as naval commander for the invasion of Munilyst, spreading other Jedi thin across the Outer Rim to est up the chance for Dooku to lunge for Coruscant.
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