posted
I was thinking about some of the information in the new Constellation article in the Star Trek magazine. According to the article, the USS Stargazer is a mothballed ship which can be redeployed for Starfleet service.
One of the curious questions about starships is, "Why is a Daedalus Class starship operational in the late 2260's?". My thinking goes something like this-
The class is retired in 2196. A small number of the ships from this class are put into a reserve fleet for future redeployment by Starfleet.
2266 or thereabouts. The Klingons and the Federation are feuding over territory and trade. The Organians settle the matter. An uneasy peace results.
2267 or thereabouts. The Federation, wary of the Klingons, reactivate older ships for the short-term. They bolster the size of the fleet. Among these ships, there is the very old U.S.S. Carolina NCC-160 . She has been upgraded in her software and technology and is assigned near the Klingon border.
I would like your input on this speculative scenario. Thanks.
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'd simply drop the notion that the Carolina was a Daedalus class vessel. Or that her registry was NCC-160, for that matter.
It's all good and well to give longevity to some ship classes to satisfy the demands of on-screen canon, even if it goes against common sense - sci-fi is often about things that don't make common sense. But it's not smart to try and do that on one of the few ship classes that actually earned an on-screen reference to the retirement date. We should do everything we can to respect that date, even when some sources don't seem to.
The other retirement date we know, the one for the Soyuz class, is also something I'd rather hold on to with two hands, a good set of teeth and (if available) a prehensile tail. The nonsense in DS9 TM should definitely be forgotten or reinterpreted, as it again undermines a rare and precious on-screen fact.
quote: The other retirement date we know, the one for the Soyuz class, is also something I'd rather hold on to with two hands, a good set of teeth and (if available) a prehensile tail. The nonsense in DS9 TM should definitely be forgotten or reinterpreted, as it again undermines a rare and precious on-screen fact.
By the 2260s I doubt that any amount of upgrading could make the Daedalus class combat ready against a Klingon ship. Possibly as transports or some kind of secondary vehicle but I would imagine it'd be more efficient either to reactivate more modern vessels or to build new light combatants.
Registered: Feb 2002
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Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
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posted
If the Klingons use centuries old ships during TOS, why can't the Feds use them, too?
Of course you could say "Having a Daedalus among a Federation fleet is like having a sailing ship as an aircraft carrier escort nowadays", but what would happen if you install up-to-date tech? It would work, the question is just "what's cheaper, building an entirely new vessel or refitting an old one?" - and if you concider the size of the Daedalus alone, you couldn't even use it as a freighter. Maybe a partrol vessel, but the problem in a war is not having enough ships to patrol the border (and I'm sure they had enough) but assembling a powerful fleet. What can you do with dozen Daedalus' (Daedali? Daedalusses?) if one Bird of Prey can wipe them out?
Maybe the Carolina was a private research vessel like the Vico, but I doubt the ship was pressed back into service.
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Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Timo: I'd simply drop the notion that the Carolina was a Daedalus class vessel. Or that her registry was NCC-160, for that matter.
Timo Saloniemi
Where'd that info come from anyway?
Maybe it was a refit Daedelus? Or an Oberth (TOS style)
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
posted
This ship has many problems associated with it. According to dialogue, they should've been long retired by TOS, It is given the Daedalus Class designation in Encyclopedia 3rd Ed. According to the ship list on page 471, its registry is NCC-160, but according to the Carolina entry on page 66, It's NCC-235, supported by a side-view graphic of the ship.
quote:Originally posted by SoundEffect: This ship has many problems associated with it. According to dialogue, they should've been long retired by TOS, It is given the Daedalus Class designation in Encyclopedia 3rd Ed. According to the ship list on page 471, its registry is NCC-160, but according to the Carolina entry on page 66, It's NCC-235, supported by a side-view graphic of the ship.
Well, well, well.
Well I'll be damned, I've never noticed that before. NCC-235 I can live with as the Carolina's reggo, better than NCC-160 at least. *alters shiplist*
posted
IMHO, I believe that this whole "Carolina=Daedalus" thing was simply just a mistake (or at least an oversight) on Okuda's part when he was writing the Encyclopedia. Since all of the Constitution class ships in TOS were accounted for with Greg Jein's T-Negative list, the Carolina is the odd man out. Instead of inventing a TOS-era conjectural class, he just saves time by making the ship Daedalus class, even though it contradicts the Daedalus recall date. And he can't even get the registries right between the shiplist entry and the graphic.
Keep in mind that there were only three other Starfleet vessels mentioned being in operation during TOS besides the Connies: The Carolina, the Antares, & the Deirdre. For some reason, Okuda decides to arbitrarily make the Antares its own class, ignore the Dierdre, and make the Carolina a class of ship that it really shouldn't be.
I'm not trying to bash Michael Okuda. I like Michael Okuda. He's a real nice guy who I'm sure works very hard to make Star Trek the best it can be for the fans. But he's not the Star Trek God, just because he wrote the Encyclopedia. Everything that's not canonically stated or seen on the show itself can be subject to anyone's interpretation (& sometimes even canon things as well, provided they contradict each other, but that's a different story). So if Newark wants to believe his theory, fine. I personally think the Carolina was a different ship. I also think the Republic & the Farragut weren't Constitutions, either...
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: Keep in mind that there were only three other Starfleet vessels mentioned being in operation during TOS besides the Connies: The Carolina, the Antares, & the Deirdre.
Wasn't the Valiant (Encyclopedia mentions NCC-1223) mentioned in "A Taste of Armageddon" a Starfleet vessel, although an older design which surely predates the Constitution Class?
posted
Dukhat was talking about ships in operation.
-------------------- "Never give up. And never, under any circumstances, no matter what - never face the facts." - Ruth Gordon
Registered: Mar 2000
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Constitution Class (based on visual and non-visual clues)are marked by an asterisk.
There was never a definite statement in the original stating that the Enterprise-type starships were the only ones in service. There may have been other operational starship classes at the time. I like to think there were.
As for the other non-Constitution Class ships, what do we know about them specifically?
U.S.S. Archon and U.S.S. Horizon were both identified as starships operating out of Starfleet a hundred years before. Both were lost.
U.S.S. Farrugut was a starship attacked and severly damaged by a vampire cloud. Over half her crew, 200 personnal, were killed. So she could have been a Constitution Class starship. Yet we have the contradictory evidence of the "Cage" which shows the Enterprise of the same time as having 203 crew.
Of the unnamed ships, we know the list is reversed alphabetical. The Enterprise is near the bottom of the chart and Intrepid near the top. I can believe some of these ships are Constitution, but not all.
U.S.S. Antares belongs to an older class of ships. She, like the unnamed Class J starship, had older technology-i.e. baffle plates-and had a very small crew size. Her exact ship type was never pinned down.
U.S.S. Carolina was an operational starship assigned to a sector of space near to the Klingon border.
Though identified by Captain Kirk as "United Star Ship Republic", she may not have been a Constitution Class starship. Afterall, the captain was repeating her name and not identifying her by class.
U.S.S. Valiant is identified as a scout ship sent by Earth to the Eminair Star System. She was destroyed fifty years prior to TOS.
U.S.S. Yorktown is mentioned by name and never as a starship.
The S.S. Dierdre is not a starship. She is a merchant vessel with a top warp speed of 2.
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
Thanks for the info, Newark. Just two points of contention: The Intrepid, which you marked as being a Connie, was AFAIK never canonically seen or described as being one, while the Defiant most certainly was a Connie, as we could see her in "The Tholian Web."
-------------------- "A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop
Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by newark: Of the unnamed ships, we know the list is reversed alphabetical. The Enterprise is near the bottom of the chart and Intrepid near the top.
They may not be listed in any sort of alphabetical order at all. The ship at the top could be in Parking Orbit Number One and so on.
quote:U.S.S. Antares belongs to an older class of ships. She, like the unnamed Class J starship, had older technology-i.e. baffle plates-and had a very small crew size. Her exact ship type was never pinned down.
Indeed, referred to as a cargo ship and as a space probe vessel. However, there's no positive evidence that baffle plates are limited to older ships.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
I'm assuming that you meant to mark the Defiant with an asterisk, as that ship was clearly seen to be a Connie in "The Tholian Web."
I agree that the Carolina, in all probability, is not in fact a Daedalus-class vessel. (I have in fact been planning to update my shiplist on this matter, but I'm still debating whether to keep the registry---and, if so, which one---and I'll probably ask Okuda for his thoughts on the subject before proceeding.) I'm not really able to visualize it as a Connie either. (And that's probably a good thing, as we have too many of those floating around as it is!)
quote:Originally posted by Dukhat: For some reason, Okuda decides to arbitrarily make the Antares its own class
Well, not quite arbitrarily. I believe he did it because of his listing of the Hermes from "Redemption" as an Antares-class vessel on the display graphic that SoundEffect has recently discovered. Granted, there's no particular need for the TOS Antares to be the latter's class ship, but it does make the overall list look nice.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Going by how they got the Daedelus - from Matt Jeffries early Enterprise ideas - I believe there were TOS versions of the Oberth and the Miranda. Considering the Oberth registry - it's not hard.
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