Think about this: We (Christians) are commanded to:

1. Love god.

2. Love one-another.

3. Love our enemies.

Now can someone tell me if that leaves out any group of sapient beings you can think of? Folks who want to personally go out and punish sinners need to examine themselves carefully in the mirror before they leave the house.

Mind you, the Bible does, in fact, illustrate several times that homosexual behavior is not condoned*. However, it isn't considered important enough to have a specific commandment against it. This leads me to believe that "little" things like lying, stealing, etc, need to be addressed as much or more vigorously.

No-one can force anyone else into heaven. If you try, you've missed the point. It's an individual choice. You can only persuade those who will listen with their hearts. Some will scoff, others will claim they've already figured out how to get in on their own, and others will always claim you are being holier-than-thou and demand you get off your high horse.

Others will try to do violence to you, physically or verbally. Telling others that Christians are all a bunch of hate-mongers is, in my opinion, a violent act. The fact that a lot of your friends may vigorously agree does not make it any less violent. The fact that "Christians" do much the same thing when discussing homosexuals or prostitution or adultery doesn't make it any less violent.

The question is this: Do you want to promote hate and violence? Do you want one group of people to all die so you can get on with your life without worrying about them? Keep doing what you're doing. It will eventually lead to something like what is happening now in Kossovo. Little thoughts lead to great deeds, for good or evil.

--Baloo

*Only one reference in the NIV Bible specifically uses the word "Homosexual": 1 Corinthians 6:9.

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

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Don't call me a Yank.
I prefer to be referred to as a "Pull with a Sudden Movement".
 

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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
 

I agree very much with you, Baloo...

Hatred, in any form, towards anyone, is simply unacceptable.
 

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"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/

 

Well said, dude.

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Brandon "Enterprise" Grasmick
Commanding Officer, USS Sovereign (NX-74222)

"Captain, the Sona crew are willing to negotiate a cease fire. It may have something to do with the fact that we have 3 minutes of air left."
-- Worf

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
-- In time of war the law falls silent.
 

The reasons you gave were the reason why I tried to remain calm. Yet when explaining what needed to be said there is little chance of not offending people with the other viewpoint. Jesus didn't have a lotof tact either, but then, He had powers the rest of us don't have! Also, the reasons you gave are also the reason I abandened the other thread.

Thanks Baloo!

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Wheeelersburg Correctional Facility
Inmate #05301999

Okay, this isn't against Baloo, it's against that Bible passage. It seems to say that male prostitutes are immoral but female ones are not??

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"I have come to the conclusion that one man is called a disgrace, that two are called a law firm, and that three on the law become a congress! And by God I have had this Congress!"
--John Adams, "1776"
 

Isaiah 57:3 (English-NIV):

""But you--come here, you sons of a sorceress, you offspring of adulterers and prostitutes!"

This passage would seem to indicate that if prostitution is not the same as adultery, it is considered as a sinful behavior on approximately the same level.

Keep also in mind, the Pharisees denounced Jesus because his entourage included tax collectors and prostitutes (apparently tax collectors were held in as high an esteem then as today).

His response (Matthew Chapter 11, verses 18-19):

For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, "He has a demon."

The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, "Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and 'sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions.

With regard to your objection, I wasn't directly addressing that subject in the original post.

--Baloo

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Don't call me a Yank.
I prefer to be referred to as a "Pull with a Sudden Movement".

[This message was edited by Baloo on April 13, 1999.]
 

On the other hand, there are passages in the Bible PROSCRIBING punishment for such people, specifically, DEATH. Same for "Witches", and all sorts of other people.

***I don't know how to do quotes like everybody else, so this'll have to do:::***

"The question is this: Do you want to promote hate and violence? Do you want one group of people to all die so you can get on with your life without worrying about them? Keep doing what you're doing. It will eventually lead to something like what is happening now in Kossovo. Little thoughts lead to great deeds, for good or evil."

It already has. When God leads the Israelites into the "promised land" it turns out to be already occupied, which results in the genocide of the occupants (in fact, likely a worse genocide than is taking place in Kosovo, since at least SOME women and children are getting out of Kosovo.)

This, in a Book that was supposedly written by a God that loves and forgives everybody.

The inherent contradictions are ridiculous.

Why should we trust a people who can claim to be loving and forgiving, and yet cling to a book like that?

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

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Wheeelersburg Correctional Facility
Inmate #05301999

And don't forget, this is still the same God who has Armageddon all nicely planned out in advance...

Maybe his personality is going to swing back again?

"I'm gonna kill everybody.. no, now I love everybody.. okay, NOW I'm gonna kill everybody..."

*Makes the International "He's a Loony" sign by pointing at God-Being with left hand, while taking right index finger, pointing it at own right temple, and rotating it in small circles*

By the way, isn't one of the definitions of "God" that He's changeless? Doesn't even HE say that at at least one point?

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

I am also a realist.

IMHO there is a lot of crap in the bible. There, I said it. Anyone who reads the bible literally should be tied up and sent with a Black Panthers convention with a swastika tatooed to their forehead. Its stupid stupid stupid. I will put forward that the majority of the Old Testament has a very loose grip on history. Anything written 4000 years ago, Word of God or not, will have been mistranslated, warped by propagandists, lost and rewritten and pretty dated when it comes to modern day usage. However, so long as you don't go too literal onit, most of the New Testament is very good stuff.

One passage out of some shady Ancient Jewish manuscript certainly shouldn't superceed all the "love your neighbor" bits eleswhere. Any church leader who openly advocates harming homosexuals because of that one passage should really pay the panthers a visit.

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"......"
�������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371

Whoa...Tom, care to explain this to us? I happen to think that here are a LOT of valuble lessons in the Bible; Old Testament and New Testament alike.

Just because a document was written 4000 years ago doesn't mean that human nature has changed at all in that amount of time. The reason that so much of the Bible doesn't seem relevant to us today is mostly because we're not taking it in context.

Let me give an example: Ephesians 6:22-24. "You wives will submit to your husbands as you do to the Lord. For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body, the church; he gave his life to be her Savior. As the church submits to Christ, so you wives must submit to your husbands in everything."

Okay, right about now, you're thinking this is the most sexist, descriminatory thing you've ever heard and YES, it's in the Bible. But if you read only this, then that's where the fault lies. Ephesians carries on to say tell us that the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, and that he should love her as he loves his own body.

This isn't "submit to your husband when he beats you" of "submit to your husband when he's yelling at you" this is THE PERFECT RELATIONSHIP. Our partner is supposed to love us selflessly, as Christ loves his children. Submit, in this case, means acquiesce (To rest satisfied, without opposition and discontent.) because if the husband is seeking God's will for the family, he won't be making the decisions based on what he feels is right, but what is best for his family, and he won't be making these decisions on his own.

Anyways, that's just an example. IMHO, there is hardly anything in the Bible which is not at least the smallest bit relevant, even in current times.

((Oh, and FYI, I'd love to find the man who will love me as purely and unconditionally as God loves his children...))

quote:

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God loves his children

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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
 

Go ahead, read Leviticus. More raunchy than one of Liam's CapCom's entries. But I really doubt I'll go to hell for not following it word-for-word. The scary thing is a lot of people do.

"Love your neighbor as you love yourself"

That's all anyone really really needs, whether Atheist or Buddhist or Mormon or Orthodox Jew.

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"......"
�������������-The Breen at Internment Camp 371

He didn't MAKE those things...*sigh* This is often the most difficult thing for all people (Christians and non-Christians alike) to deal with...God loves us, but these things happen. I've often asked the same question, and I know MANY of my Christian friends have struggled with this question as well.

All we can do is have faith that He'll deliver the world from it all, in His time.
 

Which would make all of his conflicts our conflicts. Note...I see God as a child trying to gain a sense of identity from all this, to become sentient yet be the absolute sentient being.

Kind of deflating for us eh?

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I drink therefore I am.

-Descartes

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Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
 

Suppose you know a horrible crime is about to be committed. You know who will do it, when, where, and perhaps even why.
You also know that with a Q-like snap of your fingers, you can prevent this crime with no harm to anyone, while remaining undetectable and with no danger to yourself or any other person.
And yet, you refuse to snap your fingers, and it happens.

What does this make you?

What would you think of a person who stood idly by and watched someone get raped, or a child get murdered, or someone bleed to death in excruciating pain? Especially when that person has the power to MAKE IT STOP?

If I accept your version of God, I have to accept a being that is an accessory to every crime which ever occured. A being which behaves in a manner in which a person would be held in contempt by humanity for. (like that kid in Las Vegas who did nothing as his buddy killed a little girl in a bathroom stall).

I can't do that. Not with anything resembling a conscience. I don't possess that concept of "have faith, it'll all work out okay in the end."

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
 

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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?

Unless God is a Klingon. And even THEY only bear dishonor for a few generations.

We do not place blame on children for the sins of their parents.

Likewise, we are not responsible for the actions of a pair of fruit-munching simpletons untold eons ago.

They tell us the original sin was.. but they can't even agree WHAT it was.
Was it disobedience?
Ambition?

Bah. The original sin was putting the tree and the serpent and the aforementioned simpletons in the same garden. Intentionally. With knowledge (and therfore malice) aforethought. And then LYING about its effects.
(bet that's one thing everybody forgets.. the serpent told the TRUTH. They didn't die, they did "become as God, knowing right and wrong") Big G fibbed -- or worse, spoke in stupid metaphor to people who didn't yet have written language, much less the concept for metaphor.

You can't claim Omniscient God didn't know what was going to happen when He mixed those ingredients together. And since He knew, it's pretty stupid to be mad about it.

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?

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I drink therefore I am.

-Descartes

(as an aside, this sounds like the same "rebellious nature" Satan/Lucifer had. And of course, since only God created Lucifer, He had to have created Lucifer's nature as well.)

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

quote:

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God created man in his own image

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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
 

The only problem I've seen with these threads is that people want proof, adn it's pretty clear that a bunch of Star Trek fans on the internet aren't going to prove God's existence. People have studied this for millenia. God himself says that you must have faith. It's not an easy situation to work with.

Okay, say God eliminated all murder. We'd thne have no knowledge of murder. We'd say 'how does God allow beatings' So he eliminates all physical violence. We'd then say 'Why does God allow us to stub our toe?'
Peronally, i think God gave us free will for a reason. If he interferes in our lives, he's taking away that free will. Then we become little more than puppets. He HAS to allow us to make mistakes, so that we can grow. It's be like protecting a child from ALL the evils of the world, keeping them locked up in their bedroom so that they can never see anything bad. That child is never going to grow up. Same with us. We have to experience the bad, and then choose to embrace the good.

Does that make any sense?

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'My rigid grill structure...'
-Dinobot
 

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I drink therefore I am.

-Descartes

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Peace!
Brigs

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The Unknown Vulcan

 

No where in Christian text does it say that God is in anyway evil. Satan is a fallen angel.

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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?

I: Captain, I understand that in your career, you've had a strong anti-religious stance.

Kirk: Well, I don't see that as true...

I: Oh, come now, Captain. Don't be modest. Remember what occurred when you encountered the primitive people who worshipped Vaal?

Kirk: Yes...

I: And what did you do when you realized these people were in bondage to a supertitious worship?

Kirk: We, er, blew up the computer. I mean, Vaal. But...

I: And when you found a similar group of people under the rule of Landru, being held back by silly outdated superstitions?

Kirk: We blew him up. But...

I: And when confronted with a being that actually WAS the Greek God, Apollo?

Kirk: Blew him up. Kinda regretted that one. But...

I: And of course, when faced with the godlike Nomad, in search of his creator?

Kirk: Blew him up.

I: And when your friend Gary Mitchell was becoming a god?

Kirk: Blew him up.

I: What about when the people on Eminiar VII were enslaved to their computers and meekly followed, like sheep if you will, it's orders to step into disintegration chambers?

Kirk: (smiling sheepishly) Blew up LOTS of stuff!

I: When you actually travelled through the great barrier and MET God, what did you do?

Kirk: Hah! I'm off the hook on that one. *Spock* blew him up.

I: Thank you, Captain. This has been very enlightening...

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Peace!
Brigs

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The Naked Now

For instance, one account suggests that JC MARRIED Mary Mag., and settled down to found a family.
One suggests that a man named "Simon" ended up on the cross instead of JC.

The reson you have the accounts that you havem were that those of Matt, Mark, Luke and John were some of the ones that disagreed the LEAST. And they still disagree on several crucial points, including Jesus's last words on the cross.

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*I only SEEM Normal*

 

First of Two's query about God allowing pain and mayhem deserves some thought:

If you found yourself in a situations in which you may immediately witness an incident that was going to cause harm to someone, and had the clairvoyance--or access to all the information contained within the universe--to see how the incident would influence other events, and had the power to run a mental simulation in which you prevented the near occurance from happening and was able to analyse the events from that decision, then based on which future course you favored, you would then either allow the atrocity to happen, or prevent it.
Let's imagine that there is intervention by God. Now how the hell would we know what events are allowed and what events are deleted? The Colonization of the Western Hemisphere, Hitler, and now Milsovich and the Taliban could pale in comparison to other possible actrocities. Maybe these are neccesary evils in which a greater goodness will arrise.

I myself think of God as a conscience being, but not a sentient being. God's self-awareness comes from humanity. We think, therefore It is. The Higher Power is humanity and all living things contributing to it. God is the manifestation of that. To say there is no God is admitting that there is no humanity. To say there is no spirit is to say there is no conscience. To say there is no soul is to say there is no intelligence. To deny these things is to deny the very existance of energy. It is to say "there is nothing".
It is not a question of the existance of God. Nor is it a question of belief in a God. The deep question we wrestle with is "How do I perceive God?" And the answers vary from a nonentity, to a white bearded old gent in white robes, to a holographic-like matrix of interferance patterns in an endless sea of energy. Which one is correct?
Which one is correct for you.
There may be many Gods and Goddesses, but there is only one godness.

My thoughts on the homosexual issue. Plain and simple. Most men who hate them, fear them because they beleive that homosexuals may treat the heterosexual males like the heterosexual males treat the females.
Homosexuality doesn't bother me in the least bit (probably because I treat women with equalty, respect, and consideration, which given the above is how I feel a homosexual man would treat me.)
Off on a humorous rant meant to amuse and not offend, I offer this opinion:

What really irritates me about homosexual men is that as far as sex goes, they got the better end of the stick. Sex occupies a man's thoughts constantly. So two men who are attracted to men, who are constantly thinking about sex. . . well, someone is not playing the old "I'v got a headache, tonight" routine! What is the rejection rate in gay bars? It's got to be low. And another thing, I have never once in my life ran across a glory hole in a straight bar (not that I've ran across any in a gar bar. I don't go there.) No wonder we are pissed off. Those guys are having all the erotic fun! It's a shame I don't find a hairy butt attractive. But no. I have to deal with heterosexual women who are looking for the perfect mate to pass their genes onto the next generation. The competition is fierce.
Oh, and as far as homosexual women are concerned, not only do I not mind it, but, like 99.9 percent of all males out there, I condone it.

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IF is the middle word in Life.
--Appocalypse Now