I sit here watching the last mission of the USS Yamato and I can't help but wonder what the hell Captain Varley was thinking going into the Neutral Zone. He discovers the Iconian homeworld, his ship begins to have system failures,gets spotted by a Romulan cruiser and manages to lose them in a asteroid field: still remains in Neutral zone, loses an entire engineering team and still thinks beaming non essential personell to the Enterprise is "uncalled for...at least not yet". Lotsa of dead Starfleeters over his obsession.
your thoughts?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, I think Varley is a lot like Picard in some respects. In the same situation, Picard may have done the same thing. However, I think that after being chased by a Romulan cruiser, Picard would have left the Neutral Zone.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As I recall, the Yamato's search for Iconia began as your average research mission. Varley's "reckless" decisions didn't begin until it became clear that Iconia might be within the Neutral Zone and might reasonably be believed to still contain Iconian artifacts and technologies. His decision to pursue the search was based on the concern of Iconian technology falling into Romulan hands. Now, on the one hand, this was ultimately a bad decision, as it led to the destruction of his ship. But his concerns about Iconia, specifically that it could pose a grave security threat to the Federation, do not seem unreasonable to me, and this is the kind of snap decision that Starfleet captains would appear to be entrusted with by the UFP.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
My real gripes with Varley is the baaaad decision not to evac non essential personell and the fact that if he had not entered he NZ the Romulans might never have bothered scouring that backwater world at all. Also, even after Picard destroyed the last bit of tech on Iconia, the romulans would have sent cloaked ship to search every other possible artifact locations for leftover Iconian tech. It might have led to their phasing cloak experiments and super systems on the Scimitar. ...or they might still find some.
On DS9 we saw that the Iconians went as far as the gamma Quadrant at least: it sure would be bad news for the galaxy in the borg got that tech. Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
We should look at Varley in two ways:
First off, he definately didn't want the Romulans to get their hands on Iconian technology. So he felt it was best to make sure that he gets to the Iconian homeworld before Romulans do. He sacraficed the Starfleet personel in order to do this.
Then again, he didn't offload the non-essential personel and civilians when he had the chance. Also, finding the planet lead the Romulans to the damn place.
In conclusion, there is best case scenario. Either the Federation sends a secret team or Section 31 does to destroy and take Iconian tech and the Romulans find out and peace goes to hell in a handbasket or rumors from the Federation about Iconia brings the Romulans to the Neutral Zone and peace goes to hell in a handbasket.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's the kind of thing that would happen if a derelict Borg cube or Planetkiller was found somewhere. There are lots of older high tech races out there with a bad track record of losing their toys.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I think Starfleet's major problem with Varley is one that troubled Picard, too. They way too often placed the lives of non-essential crew and families in risk needlessly. Right off the top of my head, Picard's charge into the Neutral Zone in "The Defector" wasn't all that different from what Varley did, even if Picard DID have an (well, three) aces-in-the-sleeve.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...and yet when the cadets of dead...er...Red Squad do the same damn thing, they're considered foolhardy and their captain was "bad".
Varley should have at least contacted Picard. Picard would have understood the problembetter than anyone else and the Enterprise was doubtlessly the closest starship anyway.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:...and yet when the cadets of dead...er...Red Squad do the same damn thing, they're considered foolhardy and their captain was "bad".
I haven't seen the episode in a while. But, frankly, YES! I forget how the comissioned officers were killed, but I think it was because their comissioned captain decided that Red Squad was fit to see combat and serve duty. Well, maybe. But his flaw was in thinking that Red Squad was ready to make command decisions -- and they AREN'T!
Their original captain should've high-tailed it back to base, gotten an experienced crew, and probably could've done a lot more damage against the Dominion then with a bunch of snobby know-it-all cadets without the practical experience to make the decisions that Varley and Picard did.
Just because you're the top Red Squad cadet commander, when all you have is four years of Academy marching and lectures, you're going to fall well short of the command abilities of someone like Picard, with literally decades of experience under his belt.
The original captain of the Valiant should have been aware of this. The Red Squad captain was too ARROGRANT to be aware of this, and he got his crew killed on account of his own pride ... and that's something Picard or Varley wouldn't do.
As a side note: the fact that Red Squad's CO misled (LIED THROUGH HIS FUCKING TEETH) Starfleet as to the status of the Valiant's commissioned crew, simply points to his unworthiness to command. He was so desperate for the opportunity, he got himself and most of his crew killed, and destroyed an expensive and powerful starship in the process that could've been a greater asset to the Federation in the hands of a capable commander. Don't compare this ignorant snot to Picard, or Varley.
[ April 22, 2003, 09:35 PM: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Red squad mightb not have been ready to make the big decisions, but they all risked their own lives to try to destroy the Dominion Battleship whereas Varley risked many non-starfleeters on a mission that could have waited for a ship without civillians and choc full of archeoligists. Varley let his intrest in the Iconians cloud his better judgement. He very well could have started a war that would have cost thousands (or millions!) of lives on the off chance there was Iconian tech on the planet. In this case, there was a threat, but the ends don't justify the means.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Red squad mightb not have been ready to make the big decisions, but they all risked their own lives to try to destroy the Dominion Battleship whereas Varley risked many non-starfleeters on a mission that could have waited for a ship without civillians and choc full of archeoligists.
Red Squad failed because they didn't have the know-how to complete their mission. Red Squad found a threat, but they acted improperly, and decieved Starfleet as to their status - Starfleet believed the ship was being commanded by its comissioned officers, when it wasn't. The difference between what Red Squad did and what Varley did was fantastic.
Varley had to make a quick decision -- oh crap, the Romulans might be snooping around Iconia! The Iconian technology would have given the Romulans a great technological edge over the Federation, and potentially the motive to start a war to take down the Federation. Sure Varley took a risk -- but the difference between him and that Red Squad CO is that Varley had not only the experience, but the trust of Starfleet, in making that decision. The Red Squad CO had neither.
quote:Varley let his intrest in the Iconians cloud his better judgement.
Do you believe Picard's interest in the Iconians clouded his judgement? I doubt it. Picard had more info to go on that Varley did, and they acted for the same reasons -- to prevent the technology from falling into the hands of the Romulans.
quote:He very well could have started a war that would have cost thousands (or millions!) of lives on the off chance there was Iconian tech on the planet.
Well, gosh, we don't want that. Nevermind that there was already a Romulan warship doing the exact same thing that he was doing, and with the same potential consequences!
quote:In this case, there was a threat, but the ends don't justify the means.
I disagree. If Varley acted, and did cause a war, yes, billions would die.
But what if he DIDN'T act, and the Romulans DID get the Iconian technology? They would be able to bring the Federation to its knees. Varley acted to preserve the balance of power - whatever the cost.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: [QUOTE]Do you believe Picard's interest in the Iconians clouded his judgement? I doubt it. Picard had more info to go on that Varley did, and they acted for the same reasons -- to prevent the technology from falling into the hands of the Romulans.
[QUOTE]
The romulans only started snooping around beacuse a Federation GCS violated the Neutral Zone. They were'nt looking for Iconia: varley never said they were: The Romulans spotted him in the NZ and gave chase. If a Chinese ship was snooping around an island near American waters we's be curious as to why too. Picard had no options after reading Varley's log: The log made clear that the Romulans were onto him and the Warbird did see the federation's greatest class of warship go boom over a world that inside the NZ. It would'nt have taken them very long to re-trace the Yamato's course (even if they had'nt tapped into the logs' transmissions). By the time Picard became involved it was either continue Varley's mission or definitely allow the romulans to have the tech. The NZ had been in place for at least 100 years without anyone finding Iconia so what was the rush to violate treaty?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The same reason that if the US discovered we'd left an intact nuclear weapon in the middle of the Korean DMZ, we probably wouldn't say, "oh, it's been there half-a-century, no rush..." in retrieving it!!!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's more like "if we left a nuke on Bikini Atoll and no one else knew about it". The threat is still there, but sublty could avert crisis whereas sending a carrier would cause everyone in the region to see what we were up to. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Clearly, Varley didn't think he had the time to contact Starfleet to make them aware of the situation. He may have been overconfident of his ability or luck to remain off the Romulans' viewscreen, or he may have had other relevent concerns (if memory serves, the Romulans were doing their own archeological digs in the area?). Varley didn't think that he had a choice in the matter, and given what was at stake, I might be willing to consider him a "competent captain who made a mistake" (even though I don't consider his actions - except for not seperating the saucer - a mistake).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The Romulans were not doing any archeogical anything. Varleys ship found some artifacts in Fed or undeclared space and followed the clues to Iconia. I think he just saw the discovery as a long term inevitability. He had plenty of time to contact starfleet but he knew they'd never allow him to risk a war without hard evidence...and he decided to bend the rules like Kirk and others have in the past....but it didint work how he planned and everyone on his ship died as result.
I had'nt even considered eperating the saucer! that would have really made the diffrence too!
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Varley didn't think that he had a choice in the matter, and given what was at stake, I might be willing to consider him a "competent captain who made a mistake" (even though I don't consider his actions - except for not seperating the saucer - a mistake).
and
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: The Romulans were not doing any archeogical anything. Varleys ship found some artifacts in Fed or undeclared space and followed the clues to Iconia. I think he just saw the discovery as a long term inevitability. He had plenty of time to contact starfleet but he knew they'd never allow him to risk a war without hard evidence...and he decided to bend the rules like Kirk and others have in the past....but it didint work how he planned and everyone on his ship died as result. I had'nt even considered eperating the saucer! that would have really made the diffrence too!
To sum it up, keep in mind he may not have been able to separate the ship, considering the condition that it was in. He did state in his logs that their transporter were down, perhaps too their warp drive (as to explain why they were just sitting there), and seeing that saucer separation is such a 'major' process for that ship to conduct, it might not have had the capibility to do it, or if it could, who is to say the computer virus wouldnt have found a way to kill the crew by cutting off life support next, or something.
His only REAL mistake was underestimating the Iconian probe. Had that not happened, he too, like Picard and Co., could have just waltzed down to the planet or managed some other means destroy the Gateway and go on their merry way.
Keep in mind he did manage to contact the Enterprise, so the opportunity existed for him to contact Starfleet Command, why he may not have may be contributed to 1) the distance from the diplomats making the decisions and the fact that he felt that this situation deemed immediate action. And 2) the fact that it really wouldnt have made for that good of an episode....
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
In Varleys case it was all about maintaining the balance of power. Some relavent points from "Contagion":
quote: VARLEY - I know what you're thinking, what the hell am I doing here? Well, I had heard rumors about a couple of archaeological digs that started making the Iconians sound a lot less like legend. I did a little investigating, and I located their homeworld.
PICARD - Donald, this was quite a risk to run just to satisfy an archaeological curiosity.
VARLEY - No, the risk would be in allowing the Romulans to locate Iconia. Fortunately, I got there first. It's a virtually dead planet, but enough of the technology remains to give the Romulans an edge if they were ever to find it.
quote: VARLEY (from log) - My first officer is questioning the wisdom of my order to violate the Neutral Zone, but I am convinced I have taken the only proper course. Should this advanced technology fall into the hands of the Romulans, we might as well dock our ships and defend ourselves with sticks.
quote: VARLEY - Personal log. I am unable to send an away team to the surface of Iconia, nor can I scan the energy source on the planet because of these maddening system failures. It is infuriating to be stopped at the threshold of a dream by one's own ship. We are leaving orbit to rendezvous with Picard. If his people can't help us repair the Yamato, I must convince him to continue this exploration. The future well being of the Federation may depend upon it.
By all of this, it would seem that Varleys mission-of-boyhood-fantasy turned into a mission to save the Federation once he discovered the location of the Iconian homeworld and that the location of it is well within the grasps of the Romulans and giving them an opportunity at grasping a foothold over the competition.
quote: WORF - Sir, that would put us substantially closer to the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone.
PICARD - It can't be helped. Ensign Crusher, lay in a course. Warp factor eight.
(Riker is staring at him.)
PICARD - We are going to assume the Yamato's mission.
RIKER - And risk a war?
PICARD - If that's what it takes to get some answers.
Picard, too, is compelled to do the same thing, no matter the cost, be it war or his ship. He, like Varley, put his crew at risk to save the Federation, a conclusion he draws upon viewing Varleys evidence.
It seems that this premise was true, too, with Weyoun and Siskos need to destroy the Jem'Hadar controlled Iconian Gateway in "To the Death": to prevent both the destruction of the Dominion and the Federation. Even Weyoun was more interested in destroying the Gateway moreso than the renegade soldiers controlling it, despite the vast upperhand it could have given the Dominion. The fear of total destruction against a foe you have no way to combat, seems to play a large role in the command decision of a starship
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: Malnurtured Snay As a side note: the fact that Red Squad's CO misled (LIED THROUGH HIS FUCKING TEETH) Starfleet as to the status of the Valiant's commissioned crew, simply points to his unworthiness to command. He was so desperate for the opportunity, he got himself and most of his crew killed, and destroyed an expensive and powerful starship in the process that could've been a greater asset to the Federation in the hands of a capable commander. Don't compare this ignorant snot to Picard, or Varley.
I agree, partially, as Capt. Watters (of Red Squad), was conduction a mission that was addressed to his late Capt. Ramirez. He didn't necessarily lie to Starfleet, regarding the status of the Valiant crew, he just used the explaination of the need to keep "radio silence"; and to, yes, 'make a name for himself' by being a cadet pulling off a major offensive against the enemy.
His drive was the fact that he was getting a boner having command of his own warship, and that he has managed to keep his crew alive for eight long months and his crew loves him for it and he is just eating that up.
[NOTE: The Valiant only originally had 7 commissioned officers on board (and 35 cadets) as it was].
However, aside from taking on a mission that really wasnt his, they did manage to carry it out (that is: find the battleship and obtained a complete scan). The kicker, though was the fact that they were there, and it was probably forseen that no other starship could penetrate Dominion space and do what they were in the position to do.
As much in the manner of heroics that perhaps Varley and Picard in "Contagion" did, Watters felt that the Dominion ship in question "was a direct threat to every Federation outpost and colony within fifty light years and that it must be destroyed". True it wasn't a Gateway posing the potential threat to every planet in the Galaxy, but it would have set the Dominion back a bit destroying the ship.
I think that despite his arrogance to carry the mission forward, he was trying "save", "help", or whathaveyou, the Federation, unfortunately his decision was driven by his ego and not his experience and in doing so, made a poor choice in how he conducted it. I suppose, too, the fact that they thought they had the means to destroy it made it that much more tempting. Again, in the end he meant well, but he ultimately just got in over his head.
I suppose another commander in yet another similar situation to think about is Commodore Decker and his insane battle against the planetkiller, which was initally a battle of insurmountable odds to save Federation lives turned battle of vengence...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think Varley had a boner over the Iconians and how he'd be the big hero for finding their homeworld. No way was that the Starfleet assigned mission of the Yamato. As to saucer seperation: He should have done that prior to entering the Neutral Zone. The first officer could have rescued everyone off the drive section from command of the saucer.
Tey ccould have at least done something sneaky like hake a shuttle acciadent and the yamato searching for it to explain the treaty violation...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I think Varley had a boner over the Iconians and how he'd be the big hero for finding their homeworld.
That's original...
quote: No way was that the Starfleet assigned mission of the Yamato.
Never said it was....as you know...there seems to be a certain liberty to go on tangent missions, both officially and unofficially, now and again (i.e. "Gambit" & "The Chase").
quote: As to saucer seperation: He should have done that prior to entering the Neutral Zone.
The same could have been said with any of the other asinine missions the Enterprise has gone on over the years....
quote: Tey ccould have at least done something sneaky like hake a shuttle acciadent and the yamato searching for it to explain the treaty violation...
Ugh, you've missed sooo much of the point.... Let me reiterate:
Varley sits in the big chair cuz he can make the command decisions, trying to maintain the balance of power was moreless clearly stated in the script as his intentions. The entire state of his mission had a certain severity or urgency to it...deeming what he did necessary...
Varleys mission-of-boyhood-fantasy turned into a mission to save the Federation once he discovered the location of the Iconian homeworld and deemed that it was well within the grasps of the Romulans and thus threatened the Federation.
Picard also risked everything compelled to do what was necessary, no matter the cost, be it war or his ship to save the Federation. Note too, taht he didnt separate saucer either, and he's no fool, putting his crew at just as much, if not more, risk than Yamatos.
Again: "To the Death" (DS9) rehashed "fears".
FINALLY - Varley's only REAL mistake was underestimating the Iconian probe. Had that not happened, he too, like Picard and Co., could have just waltzed down to the planet or managed some other means destroy the Gateway and go on their merry way.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I must admit it's a long time since I've seen this episode but here goes.
Varley decided to go and search for Iconia on his own without asking, even though it had been lost for ages.
When Picard took over his mission, the Romulans had already met Varley, and were presumably already suspicious.
Therefore, whereas Varley undertook the mission when it was not urgent (the Romulans were hardly likely to find it in the next week when the NZ had been there for centuries), Picard was faced with the real possibility of the Romulans finding Iconia, after Varley's incursion made them suspicious.
Varley - wanted to make a name for himself Picard - defending the Federation
At least thats my opinion.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
exactly!
I may have been a bit harsh im my wording of Varley's motives of "wanting to be a hero" (it was late)....but he was living out a boyhood fantasy at the expense of his crew. Picard would'nt have done that even for say, revenge on the Borg. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:it was late)....but he was living out a boyhood fantasy at the expense of his crew.
And what the hell was Picard doing in the Chase?! The same damn thing.
This is my case for Varley.
Varley's location of the homeworld was based on two things:
1.) the uncovering of an Iconian artifcact.
2.) coupling the age of the artifact, with what I believe were recovered starcharts, and accounting for the corrosponding "stellar drift", Varley was able to relatively easily locate Iconia.
Varley's decision to enter the Neutral Zone and located Iconia was also based on two points as well:
1.) The knowledge that if the Romulan Star Empire gained the technology of the Iconians, the balance of power would be overthrown, and the Federation would face a powerful threat with a motive for war.
2.) It stands to reason that there are worlds within the RSE which also house Iconian relics. If so, this could mean that the same evidence which allowed Varley to locate Iconia could be present in the RSE, which means that at any time, a Romulan could make the same deductions and locate Iconia.
In conclusion, to Varley's mind, there was a very real and potential danger sitting between the RSE and the UFP. There was also a very real and potential danger that the Romulans could locate the world, using similar methods to Varley.
Varley wasn't motivated by his boyhood dream. Varley was motivated by preventing a war in which the Romulans would have the supreme advantage.
Donald Varley made the correct decision. He saw a danger to the security of the United Federation of Planets, and he took steps to end that danger, as he is expected to as Captain of a Starfleet starship.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
At best he jumped the gun: The Romulans had no Iconian artifacts to go on and there was no mention of them investigating at all: they were'nt looking for Iconia (for all we know, archeology is a lost art to them) and as pointed out, the Neutral Zone stood for centuries without them searching that desolate planet. Varley could have coordinated with Picard and Starfleet instead of risking a instellar war with the Romulans and getting his crew killed without cause. Remember: the Romulans were not looking for Iconia. The romulans only started snooping around beacuse a Federation GCS violated the Neutral Zone. By violating the treaty, Varley caused the Romulans to investigate the Iconians. What would varley have done if the Iconian homeworld was deep inside Romulan space? The same thing. He would have started a war on the unfounded assumption that there was useful tech left over from thousands of years ago. That, to me, is the sign of a poor captain. (yes I know Picard does almost the same stupid thing later on but there is no risk of instellar war in that sorry episode.)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hey, its over...your entire case is based on assumptions...and lets not get into stupid cliches about what happens when we 'assume'.
And "The Chase" too, could have started an interstellar war, if you want to assume...seeing that if you want to compare...the Yamato was lost by the Iconian Probe...so technically nothing was destroyed by one adversary by another.
In "The Chase", from what we see on screen, we know thus far the costs were: Galen gets killed, a Yridian Destroyer is destroyed, a planet is virtually destroyed, things come to a head between the Klingons, Cardassians and Federation to where the Cardassians attack the latter two's ships...there is a standoff between 4 major powers on a dead planet....
Hmm...seems like Picard was getting into some risky business compared to Varleys situation...at least Varley *knew* what he was going after, a potential threat, whereas Picard and at least 3 other major powers were pursuing and for something no one knew what was...
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Wasn't this the first episode in which Picard's own interest in archeology was established? In retrospective, I think that he silently agreed with what Varley was doing, although he did not express that in the episode itself.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: whereas Picard and at least 3 other major powers were pursuing and for something no one knew what was...
It was a recipe for cookies!
It's a wonder the Ferengi weren't also involved in "The Chase".
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Wasn't this the first episode in which Picard's own interest in archeology was established?
The history of his interest in archaeology, we saw few occations prior to this were his archaeological interests/knowledge were discussed...
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: In retrospective, I think that he silently agreed with what Varley was doing, although he did not express that in the episode itself.
This certainly seemed to be played out in his insistance of going down to the planets surface, contrary to protocol and his first officers chagrin.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...well, the ass-groove in his chair was becoming embarrasing.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Im sure Uhura would say otherwise....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Only because she's the queen on the ass-groove herself. ...and in the 60's she did have a groovy ass! Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Realistically speaking, if the Yamato hadn't blown to smithereens, what SHOULD have happened to Varley was what happened to Ben Maxwell: removal from command and, most likely, court-martial. No matter what the favorable outcomes to UFP security, in each case both men are guilty of the same offense: violation of a treaty that the Federation signed in good faith. If you're going to throw the book at one, you should do the same to the other.
Of course, Picard should have had the same thing happen to him after some of his shenanigans, but we all know the rules don't apply to Enterprise captains
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well, Picard didn't have orders from SF to enter the zone, he was going on Varleys request. We didnt even see him consulting SF when he went even deeper into the zone to finish the mission. Picard did the exact same thing as Varley, entered the zone without provocation, so Picard really should have gotten it too...
The thing I dont get is why the Romulans are ALWAYS in the neutral zone and yet if SF sticks its toe in the zone the Romulans are threatening war....
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Woah. There's a big difference between what Varley did and what Maxwell did, and don't tell me you can't see it.
Maxwell was running around attacking and destroying Cardassian ships & installations. Varley wasn't. There's a world of difference, and you need to draw better conclusions.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I have to agree that there is a big diffrence between Varley and Maxwell's actions, but Varley would still have faced some serious charges. Kirk and Picard were elevated to "living legend" status and that's what saved their commands from stupid choices.
What if the Romulan ship had stubbornly not taken Riker's advice on how to re-boot their systems? War. You can bet the Romulans stopped to report illeagal Federation presense in the NZ to their command....so if two Fed ships entered the NZ and one was destroyed along with a warbird there would have been no explanations that would have satisfied the Romulan senate. After all, Enterprise had destroyed any evidence and data that could have supported their story.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i think that if Varley had gone in on the archaeologicla clues, found Iconia either recovered the alien tech or simply kept it out of enemy hands, he wouldve been fine. I doubt Picard's 'legendary' status is enough to let him get away with misconduct, and it follows that as long as the mission outcome was as favorable for Varley, he probably wouldve been given due credit for his actions... i dont believe he botched the mission, his ship was claimed by a hostile force through actions not his own, remember that the same very nearly happened to Enterprise, which continued his mission as though nothing was wrong with continuing the said mission. If the mission were truly criminal or inadvisable i doubt Picard wouldve led his crew to the same end as Varley.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
In the end though, Varley & Picard's actions came down to saving the hind of the Federation (from the grave but not immediate threat of the Romulans making planetfall on Iconia, then possibly [!] declaring war on the UFP), the same slim justification Sisko needed in ITPM to frame the Dominion. And he could live with it... underneath that Evolved Sensibility bullcrap resides an all too familiar clandestine nature
Heck, come to think of it, Sisko's initial reaction to Section 31 and his later 180 degree turnaround in ITPM speak volumes about true human essence... Picard is no different, much as he might want to be
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I would'nt put Sisko in with Varley. Sisko broke his own consience because thousands of lives had already been lost and millions more were going to be killed if he didint act then. Varley's case was just a "mabye" and there was a far greater chance that nothing of use remaining on Iconia than that there would be super weapons or gateways or anything else. Sisko was led to a moral quicksand by circumstances beyond his control. Varley jumped in head first.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Varley is worse than Sisko? Sisko provoked the Dominion to the point of war which killed billions of people and almost brought about the end of the Federation!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: What if the Romulan ship had stubbornly not taken Riker's advice on how to re-boot their systems? War. You can bet the Romulans stopped to report illeagal Federation presense in the NZ to their command....so if two Fed ships entered the NZ.
Two GALAXIES too... that seemed quite rare at that time.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
From the Romulan POV, the Galaxy was the Federation Battleship. Imagine the fun if a Warbird just decloaked around Saturn.
NO WAY did Sisko provoke the Dominion war! With what? The minefield? Without the Minefield the Dominion could have easily taken out the station and then Bajor with one of their regular fleet reenforcments. What could starfleet have done then against a greater power that had proven itself hostile to the Federation if they lost control of the wormhole? Nothing at all. Even with the Romulans and Klingons they would have been wiped out within a year id Dominion forces from the Gamma quadrant could be summoned up prepetually.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote: Woah. There's a big difference between what Varley did and what Maxwell did, and don't tell me you can't see it.
Maxwell was running around attacking and destroying Cardassian ships & installations. Varley wasn't. There's a world of difference, and you need to draw better conclusions.
Snay, I'm quite aware of the difference. However, the point I was trying to make was that, in the diplomatic scheme of things, both men were guilty of the same offense; the additional crimes Maxwell was guilty of were just icing on the cake. If a US Navy captain went off on his own and violated a treaty we had with another country, his career would be over whether or not lives were involved. The fact that Varley's actions benefitted Federation security would probably gotten his punishment swept under the rug, but it wouldn't (or shouldn't) have gotten him off the hook totally.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
that analogy is lame.. surely you recognize there's a big difference between trespass in the home system of one of the gov'ts and the neutral zone.. ie, a Fed starship intruding in the Zone is not similar to a Rom bird intruding in the Sol System.. decloaking near Saturn would be a serious offense, but no one is talking about the E-D or Yamato penetrating Romulan space (even though Picard did just that two years later), they were just penetrating the Zone.. its a line the Romulans also cross frequently, usually without consequences. the treaty is there, but commanders know that both sides can and will use leeway when it comes to the Zone, simply because theyve gotten away with it before as long as there reasoning kept their government safe..
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Sisko arguably ruined any chance the Federation had of finding a diplomatic solution to the Odyssey incident and the destruction of the Bajoran colonies when he took a heavily armed experimental starship into the heart of the Dominion looking for the homeworld of its notoriously secretive rulers. Gosh, I can't imagine how they might misinterpret that.
This is a problem with the story as presented, though, and not really a mistake Sisko the character made.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:NO WAY did Sisko provoke the Dominion war!
Not to mention the Dominion also told him, "hey, stay the fuck out of our space", and he went in there every chance he got.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Sisko arguably ruined any chance the Federation had of finding a diplomatic solution to the Odyssey incident and the destruction of the Bajoran colonies when he took a heavily armed experimental starship into the heart of the Dominion looking for the homeworld of its notoriously secretive rulers. Gosh, I can't imagine how they might misinterpret that.
This is a problem with the story as presented, though, and not really a mistake Sisko the character made.
Well, gosh! I don't think sending another GCS into the Gamma quadrant would have done any better either! How else could Starfleet have scouted the situation and attempted to reach the Founders? Remember that doing nothing was just not an option: Thousands of colonists had already been killed without the Dominion warning anyone about their supposed "territory". The systems directly around the Gamma entrance to the wormhole (Idran) are not part of the Dominion so Sisko going there should not really be a big provocation to war. I'm sure the Bajorans would have foolishly started sending ships to investigate their lost colonies if Starfleet had not sent the Defiant on behalf of both the Federation and the Romulans.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Exactly. We were poking around over there for over a year and a half before we even started getting hints of the Dominion's existence. Then they delivered their ultimatum, and Sisko's reaction was to use the best tool he could to try to contact the Founders in hopes that diplomacy might win out. We all know how that turned out, though.
--Jonah
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Im not sure you can say that Sisko ruined any chances of preventing a war just because he took the Defiant into their space. Its not as if he stole the ship and went into Dominion space hellbent for glory. The Federation gave it to him as well as their blessing for the mission upon a bit of pursuation, for that matter the Romulans are equally guilty. The Dominion fired the first shot, and were clearly the aggressors from the get-go. Sisko may have been scouting out where he shouldnt have been, but really, Dukat is the one who let the dogs out, and he should be the one indirectly implicated here.
[ May 12, 2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Futurama Guy ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Here's an idea: Maybe send a highly visible and well announced diplomatic mission staffed with the very best diplomats and first contact specialists available instead of an invisible experimental warship. Even better, don't physically send anyone at all, just chat up known Dominion worlds via subspace radio while making sure the Bajor system is suitably defended.
Anyway, this isn't a huge deal to me, but it is a bit of a peeve.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
quote:NO WAY did Sisko provoke the Dominion war!
Not to mention the Dominion also told him, "hey, stay the fuck out of our space", and he went in there every chance he got.
Hey, the Founders wanted order - their type of 'order'. They'd done it to the Gamma Quadrant - The Wormhole and Sisko opened their eyes to just another Quadrant of disorder that had to be ordered.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Here's an idea: Maybe send a highly visible and well announced diplomatic mission staffed with the very best diplomats and first contact specialists available instead of an invisible experimental warship.
Sure! Send them in an Oberth class starship while you're at it! Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Sure! Send them in an Oberth class starship while you're at it!
So that's what happened to the Oberth Class Valiant... Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Or is that the Valiant Class - Oberth? Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Also, let's check something. The Dominion said "We claim this space, it is ours, you are not allowed in it."
Now, when the Romulans say this, the Federation say "Okay, we won't go in. Except for sweeps episodes, or something".
The Dominion say it, and Starfleet (and specifically Dax) says "Fuck you! We're going to go exploring there no matter what you say."
And then, they send in the invisible warship with the big fuck off guns to talk to the very very paranoid shoot-first enemy.
Honestly, Federation diplomats are a bit silly at the best of times, but here? They were retards of the highest order.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
At LEAST the Defiant still had to investigate the lost colonies and determine their fate. ...or would you just take the word of a single unknown alien (the Jemmie officer) just because he had a Padd from one of your colonies?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The colony was right by the wormhole. Have a runabout stick it's nose through, do a quick scan, and then retreat. Or send a probe. But DON'T send in an invisible warship with Mighty, Mighty Bossguns.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The nearest star system was the ternary system Idran three light-years away. New Bajor was further.
--Jonah
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: The colony was right by the wormhole. Have a runabout stick it's nose through, do a quick scan, and then retreat. Or send a probe. But DON'T send in an invisible warship with Mighty, Mighty Bossguns.
I believe the technical term is "Gonzo Phasers". Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm... now what WAS the Idran end of the wormhole doing out in the middle of nowhere, anyway? I mean, the Prophets are of Bajor and all that crap, but why the other end in nowhere'sville, GQ?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
....so as not to cause a huge sign pointing toward Bajor before they were ready? mabye as a buffer between the Dominion and the Alpha Quadrant? Time means nothing to them so any reason is possible.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yes, well, the whole "time means nothing" thing was apparently also crap, judging by pretty much everything but the pilot...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Read the Milenium books: they tie up all of the strange doings of te prophets nicely. Hell of a good trilogy of books too. Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Millennium was a decent 'pull it together' kind of romp that explained tons of loose ends left by the un-planned-ness of the DS9 Prophets and universe that transpired between 'Emissary' and 'What You Leave Behind' .. but it still left me feeling a little pissed off because .. well, the Reeves-Stevens just dont tell enjoyable stories.. everything is so dismal and inhuman.. their novels just make me feel depressed after reading them, rather than like i enjoyed something. the same goes for their shatner novels...
on the topic of post WYLB DS9 stories, i standby the Avatar series as definitive, they are just really good and enjoyable.. theres lots of continuity and fanboy stuff, but you get a real sense that things are progressing as they "should" and that this is the spirit of DS9 , continuing. the relaunch just has had an excellent grasp of how DS9's players and universe 'works'
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I am still waiting for Unity to hit the shelves! It was due out in April and ...well...April is long gone but there's STIL no damn book! You don't have it yet do you?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
nope, i'd heard of a delay.. i know they want it to be out this year, because its DS9s 10th anniversary.. i find it hard to believe that a book could be delayed a whole summer, but this seems to be the case..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Man does that suck. It's a fucking hardcover no less: just to look akward next to the other books, of course.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
November, y'all. Major suckage.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So their master plan is to postpone a book that's already written and lost lots of readers that might not stay intrested in a series that makes readers wait almost a year between installments and to miss the DS9 anniversary.
O-Kay.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
They're taking hints from Peter David.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No shit! I dropped New Frontier because of that crap.... ....and because the stories were getting pretty damn stupid too.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Bringing this back up. Watching the fourth season episode "To the Death", was interesting.
Sisko & Worf agreed to assist the Jem'Hadar because of the dangers in allowing anyone access to the technology. While Worf was on the original Iconian mission, Sisko wasn't, yet seemed pretty up-to-date on what had happened (which surprised Weyoun). It strikes me that Starfleet not only didn't keep Varley's actions a secret, but Sisko & Worf both seemed to support the decision to keep the Iconian technology out of hostile hands at ANY cost - including war.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Does Worf mention his previous Iconian experience in that episode? I don't think I've seen any fourth season DS9 since they were first on.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
When Sisko, Worf and the Defiant crew discuss what Weyoun told Sisko, Worf mentions that he was on the original mission to Iconia, and he can therefore vouch for the danger. O'Brien doesn't say anything, but I gather Worf meant the landing portion of the mission.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Yeah, he mentions it. As far as agreeing with varley's decision, it's pretty easy to armchair quarterback situations that went in favor of your side.
I'd figure that all starfleet captains/ commanders would have to be up to date on the Iconian situation (too much chance of catastrophic fubar otherwise) but that does'nt mean that the adverage Fed citizen is aware of that close call with galactic warfare.
Just as most US citizens don't now about a russian sub firing a torpedo (that missed) at an american ship during the cuban missile crisis. It's not classified or anything, just not publicized (save for the history channel).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:As far as agreeing with varley's decision, it's pretty easy to armchair quarterback situations that went in favor of your side.
And it's important to note that when faced with similar circumstances, both Picard and Sisko made decisions which seem to support Varley's - if you need to go to war to keep it out of the hands of the Romulans/Dominion, that's what you do. You might argue that one Starfleet captain making this decision was a "reckless moron", I don't see how you can make the arguement against three of 'em.
It's easy to armchair quarterback AGAINST Varley, too.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
About all I could add to this, is that if Varley had attempted to off load his people to the Enterprise,it would have placed the Enterprise close to the Yamato with shields down trying to transport as many as possible when the Warp breech let go.At the very least Enterprise would have been heavily damaged if not destroyed.Few if any of the Yamato crew would have been saved.Any shuttle craft or ecape pods would have been destroyed.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
However, the Enterprise was already quite close to the Yamato when she exploded and her shields were down. Transporter range is pretty far (at least as far as they already were), they very easily could have been beaming during the "whats a nice guy like you doing out here" conversation and just upped the shields after the ship exploded, just like they did, as seen on TV.
For that matter, when the Odyssey exploded, Bashirs/Kiras runabout was pretty durn close to Odyssey when she went up and they came out unscathed.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
I must have missed the part about the Enterprise shields being down.Doesn't seem like they would have gotten off that light with a Galaxy Class Starships Warp core going off that close.So I guess I'll vote that Varley was a fool after all.Going into the Zone might have been defensible but not letting his crew perish with a rescue ship that close.Of course it's doubtful that there would have been time enough for anyone to have escaped,but the order should still have been given.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Yeah, the shields were down and we see the white flash and Picards orders shields up then we see crap bouncing off Enterprise (on the viewscreen) they shake a few times and thats it. I agree, you would think if a Galaxy class saucer bounces off the shields of another Galaxy class saucer you would get a little more effect out of it as far as damage to the Enterprise. (And based on all the visual evidence it would appear the the Yamato saucer DID bounce off the Enterprise on the viewscreen).
Also, I'm still not convinced that Varley was a fool, he just didn't make the right decision about beaming his crew off while he ship was little more than a floating live-gernade. He certainly wouldn't have forseen the core breach, because frankly, he didn't even know the MSBlast virus had infected his computer yet and the one minute warning was all he got before his ship decided to reboot or go kaput.
Perhaps after that incident STarfleet decided to persue some sort of rule of offloading nonessential personell in potentially life threatening situations, as was mentioned with the Odyssey.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: And based on all the visual evidence it would appear the the Yamato saucer DID bounce off the Enterprise on the viewscreen
Oh? This was not my impression.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
quote:As far as agreeing with varley's decision, it's pretty easy to armchair quarterback situations that went in favor of your side.
And it's important to note that when faced with similar circumstances, both Picard and Sisko made decisions which seem to support Varley's - if you need to go to war to keep it out of the hands of the Romulans/Dominion, that's what you do. You might argue that one Starfleet captain making this decision was a "reckless moron", I don't see how you can make the arguement against three of 'em.
It's easy to armchair quarterback AGAINST Varley, too.
Sisko and Picard only took action after the Iconian technology was first revealed: by VARLEY. There is NO mention of the Romulans investigating or even being the least bit curious about any Iconian anything or in the planets in the Zone. The Romulans investigated after a bright shiney Galaxy class battleship violated the Zone and they were right to investigate too. My whole point about Varley being a moron is that if he'd just left the issue alone, the Romulans would have never gotten involved. Even after the episode ended, the Romulans would have had their curiosity peaked and doubtlessly searched every planet in the Zone and in their own territory for Iconian tech (thus Varley GREATLY increased the chances of Romulans getting Iconian tech any way you look at it).
Picard and Sisko were forced into their actions by what Varley did so comapring the three captains is pointless. Picard has shown many times that he'd not risk war on even a good hunch. Remember Picard wouldnt expose the cardassian freighter chock full o' weapons because it could have caused a war. (in The Wounded)
In fact, if Picard did not personally know Varley, he would have given him almost the exact same speach he gave Captain Maxwell.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"they very easily could have been beaming..."
Unless the transporters were already FUBAR at that point.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:My whole point about Varley being a moron is that if he'd just left the issue alone, the Romulans would have never gotten involved.
You don't know that. Varley may have had reason to believe that the Romulans were close to locating Iconia. It's not unlikely to assume that both sides probe the Neutral Zone on a regular basis - meaning that the non-discovery of Iconia up to that point had been a fluke. Perhaps the archeological dig that Varley saw was being monitored by the Romulans as part of their intelligence network (it makes sense that the Romulans would monitor worlds in the Federation that border the Zone ) - meaning it would've been very possible for Romulan Tal'Shiar to work out what Varley worked out and realize "Oh Crap!" Hell, for all we know, there were Starfleet standing orders to the effect of "We think the Iconians are just myth, but if they're not, drop everything..."
As I said before, if Varley was able to figure out where Iconia was how he did, it is really quite plausible to believe that similar artifacts are located on worlds within Romulan territory, worlds which might have archeological expeditions in progress too. You say "The Romulans would NEVER have found out", but how do you know? You don't. You assume that the clues which led Varley to Iconia are the only clues that exist.
If the Romulans had located Iconia, it would have meant war - a war waged with Iconian technology that the Federation would have lost. Varley made the right decision - better to lose everyone on the Yamato, better even to risk conventional war with the Romulans, then to allow them access to Iconia.
quote: The Romulans investigated after a bright shiney Galaxy class battleship violated the Zone and they were right to investigate too.
Actually, I think there's more to the story than that. The Federation's most powerful class of ship enters the Zone - and the Romulans send ONE warship? A second of the same class enters the zone, and the Romulans send - the same warship, without backup? No, that warbird was already in the Zone for whatever reason - even possibly looking for Iconia.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: "they very easily could have been beaming..."
Unless the transporters were already FUBAR at that point.
The Enterprise only had its 'hiccup' at that point, it systems started to go after that, I highly doubt its transporters were effected yet.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: And based on all the visual evidence it would appear the the Yamato saucer DID bounce off the Enterprise on the viewscreen
Oh? This was not my impression.
Could you be any more accusatory about that?
(I wish I had my DVD set on hand here...but from memory:)
We see Yamato explode, we see saucer (and possible nacelle or other large item) come at Enterprise, we see Enterprise shudder, we see the saucer suddenly fly away from Enterprise. In space it would need to 'bounce off' something to change directions...the Enterprises shields were the only thing to account for that.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
This reminds me of a real life incident from WW2.A cruiser in the early days of the war in the pacific war,had been heavily damaged.She was in tow with damage control parties working to put out fires.The decision had to be made whether to heave to and allow most of the crew to board an escort vessel.There was a big posibility of Jap subs still in the area.The crew stayed aboard.A couple of hours later the Magazine blew.Only a handful of the crew survived.Who's to say that the decision to stay was wrong?If they had hove to, that would have put the cruiser towing them dead in the water in an area infested with jap subs.The escort destroyer would likely have been damaged by the blast(the forward turret flew three miles,actually passing over the other cruiser and striking the water ahead of her).Hard to say.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
As I recall, the Yamato's engineering hull exploded, the saucer was cast free and DISINTEGRATED as it approached the Enterprise. I think you're confusing the momentum caused by the explosion with bouncing off Enterprise's shields.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
I think inertia has a lot to do with bad command decisions under the pressure of a ship board emergency.Not being willing to admit that the situation has gotten out of hand.Fatigue and just plain lack of the ability to deal with something that your training can not have prepared you for.Brain lock,thats the term.Something Starfleet academy should have found a way to deal with in command training.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Could you be any more accusatory about that?
Uh, sure, since that was the least "accusatory" statement ever made.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
A weapon of unimaginable power sits within reach of the Romulan Star Empire. Locating and either securing or destroying that weapon is the only choice you can make, and the consequences of acting are far outweighed by the consequences of not acting. Duty to Starfleet and the Federation didn't permit the luxury of a decision - Varley made the only choice he could.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's crap. Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians. Varley had no evidence that anything of value was on Iconia at all. All he had was a randon pices of tech that did nothing and they could'nt even figure out what it was! He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all: If the Warbird HAD destroyed the Yamato the Romulans could have easily claimed self defense- A Galaxy class starship violates the Zone, makes a beeline toward the Romulan homeworld and gives them NO eplanation as to why? Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command. Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war. If the Romulans DID destroy Yamato and start a war, starfleet command would have been clueless as to why Varley was in the zone at all! It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:That's crap.
No it's not. Your arguements are crap.
quote:Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians.
How do YOU know that? Do you have access to off-screen Starfleet Intelligence files? Somehow, I doubt it.
Varley's logic:
a. I found an artifact of Iconian origin.
b. If an artifact is here, then it's possible that there are artifacts scattered throughout the Alpha Quadrant. This is worth following up.
c. I have followed up. Iconia is in the Neutral Zone. Link with B -> the Romulans have the same ability to locate Iconia as I do.
d. Iconian technology must be kept out of Romulan hands at all costs.
quote:Varley had no evidence that anything of value was on Iconia at all. All he had was a randon pices of tech that did nothing and they could'nt even figure out what it was!
Let me ask you something. If you were commander of a Federation starship and learned that Iconia was within reach of a hostile, aggressive power with an eye on Federation territory, could you say to yourself "Well, there might not be anything on that planet, so I'm going to keep going on my survey mission."
quote:He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all:
I would say he got lucky that his mission was accomplished: Iconia was removed as a threat.
quote:If the Warbird HAD destroyed the Yamato the Romulans could have easily claimed self defense- A Galaxy class starship violates the Zone, makes a beeline toward the Romulan homeworld and gives them NO eplanation as to why?
So what? Of the possible outcomes to Varley's mission, the destruction of the Yamato is insignificant. If not for the mission, the entire Federation could've been brought down.
quote:Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
Considering that Varley's evidence was DEAD ON, I wouldn't call it flimsy. And in case you've consistently missed the point, a war fought without the benefit of Iconian technology on the side of the Romulans would be preferable to the Romulans finding Iconia.
quote:Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command.
And SAVED THE FEDERATION in the process! If all it cost him was his career, he really would've beaten fate.
quote:Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war.
You don't know this.
quote:If the Romulans DID destroy Yamato and start a war, starfleet command would have been clueless as to why Varley was in the zone at all!
No. If the Romulans had destroyed the Yamato, the Federation would have pointed out "Look, six months earlier you sent a Warbird INTO FEDERATION SPACE to the locations where a bunch of our outposts got blown up. We didn't go to war with you for crossing the Zone AND ILLEGALLY ENTERING FEDERATION SPACE and possible participating in those attacks, so you have no reason to moan about a Galaxy-Class ship that stayed IN the Zone and never entered Romulan space. Paint a GCS silhouette on your ship's hull, shut the fuck up, and call it a day."
quote:It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors.
How do you figure? One ship entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war? What does that make crossing completely through the Zone and into the other's territory? A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
quote:A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
Let us also not forget that the Romulans declared war in "Balance of Terror", and the Enterprise -no bloody A-B-C-orrr-D- declared war in "The Enterprise Incident".
Were Starfleet to review Varley's actions at a Board of Inquiry (can't give a dead man a court-martial!) they would probably ask themselves two questions (the same that have been bandied about this thread quite often);
1. Did Varley's violating the Neutral Zone threaten Federation security more, or would it be more threatened by the Iconian technology?
It can go both ways. If the technology on Iconia simply left there, it's entirely possible that eventually the Romulans might discover it giving them an extreme technological advantage if they could use it. On the other hand, they might never discover it, but is it worth the risk to let sleeping dogs lie when that dog could destroy the Federation? I'm willing to say no, and that the possibility of war with the Romulans is better than giving them access to Iconia.
2. Was the loss of the Yamato due to negligence on the part of the commanding officer?
This one is a little more undefined, as if Varley had never gone to Iconia his ship would never have been infected. In fact the only reason the Enterprise survived was because Data's infection by the virus gave them the cure. We shouldn't forget that Enterprise was also a ticking time-bomb until that happened. There are too many unknowns out in the depths of space (i.e. should Commodore Decker be accused of negligence of the loss of the Constellation?).
However, he was negligent in that he did not take the opportunity to evacuate non-essential personnel from his ship when he had the chance. Even if Yamato's transporters were off-line, Enterprise's weren't. Getting as many people off a ship that's about to tear itself apart should be a primary concern for the commanding officer.
Simply put, was Varley negligent in the loss of Yamato? I don't think so, in that he never could have forseen the circumstances which led up to her eventual loss (much like Decker could never have expected to run into the Doomsday Machine). Was he negligent of the deaths of the 1000+ people aboard? Absolutely. He had the chance to send as many as he could to safety, and he didn't. YMMV.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: [QB]
quote:
quote:Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians.
How do YOU know that? Do you have access to off-screen Starfleet Intelligence files? Somehow, I doubt it. .
I say that because Picard and riker said they knew nothing about the Romulan's or their abilities ("The Neutral Zone") just a few weeks (or months) earlier. Nobody ever said they knew anything about the Romulans looking for Iconia or keeping tabs on Varley's investigations. Iconia was there for centuries without the Romulans stumbeling onto it so what was Varley's rush? He understood there was a POTENTIAL threat but had NO evidence that there was anything there at all.
quote: Varley's logic:
a. I found an artifact of Iconian origin.
b. If an artifact is here, then it's possible that there are artifacts scattered throughout the Alpha Quadrant. This is worth following up.
c. I have followed up. Iconia is in the Neutral Zone. Link with B -> the Romulans have the same ability to locate Iconia as I do.
d. Iconian technology must be kept out of Romulan hands at all costs.
Agreed on all counts but there was no rush to violate treaty or any excuse not to notify command: you're assuming the Romulans were close to discovering Iconia but if they had'nt done so after a century of the Zone being there, I doubt they'd just get lucky. Varley tipped his hand to them that something of intrest was there by violating the zone.
quote:Let me ask you something. If you were commander of a Federation starship and learned that Iconia was within reach of a hostile, aggressive power with an eye on Federation territory, could you say to yourself "Well, there might not be anything on that planet, so I'm going to keep going on my survey mission."
Well for starters I'd have filed a report (scrambled to prevent eavesdropping, of course) to starfleet command. That would have taken what, ten minutes? I think he knew starfleet would not risk a war on such circumstantial evidence and so he went in with no backup. Picard would not have made that mistake.
quote:He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all: I would say he got lucky that his mission was accomplished: Iconia was removed as a threat.
BY alerting the Romulans to the Iconian tech at all he may have ultimately given it to the Romulans- they'll be looking for it now, after all.
quote:Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
quote:Considering that Varley's evidence was DEAD ON, I wouldn't call it flimsy. And in case you've consistently missed the point, a war fought without the benefit of Iconian technology on the side of the Romulans would be preferable to the Romulans finding Iconia.
His evidence was NOT "dead on": he had nothing but a hunch that turned out to be right on this one occasion: no diffrent than Ben Maxwell's hunch the Cardassians were building up weapons again. While correct, Starfleet does not take such provicative actions without clearance from Command.
quote:Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command.
And SAVED THE FEDERATION in the process! If all it cost him was his career, he really would've beaten fate.
Saved the Federation? How? He didint destroy the Iconian Tech: Jean Luc did that and could have done that without the Yamato's loss if only Varley had contacted him before his ship was crippled.
quote:Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war. You don't know this.
Basic logic says otherwise. Iconia was not in danger of discovery by the Romulans, based on onscreen dialogue, until they reacted to Yamato's entering the zone and obviously looking for something.
quote:It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors. How do you figure? One ship entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war? What does that make crossing completely through the Zone and into the other's territory? A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
The diffrence is that the Romulans ALWAYS provoked a response to see what (if anything) their opponent will do. (according to Data in "Data's Day") whereas the Federation always forgives minor incursions into their territory with no reprecussions. Even with the Dominion flooding into the Alpha quadrant, the Federation did nothing for weeks. Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:I say that because Picard and riker said they knew nothing about the Romulan's or their abilities ("The Neutral Zone") just a few weeks (or months) earlier. Nobody ever said they knew anything about the Romulans looking for Iconia or keeping tabs on Varley's investigations. Iconia was there for centuries without the Romulans stumbeling onto it so what was Varley's rush? He understood there was a POTENTIAL threat but had NO evidence that there was anything there at all.
And it was there for centuries before the Federation found out about it. And who is to say that the Romulans wouldn't find it the next week? The Romulans are a cultured people, it's not as head-scratching for them to be doing archeological digs on worlds within their control as it would be for Klingons to do the same. There's an old theory about myths that I picked up in, I think, "Relics" (the book turned into a bad movie) ... it has to do with plotting the reporting sightings of the myth, and then plotting a center point. The idea is that if you're looking for a vampire or monster or what have you, that it will most likely be located in the center of the sightings. Couldn't the same be true of worlds with Iconian artifacts? That they radiate away from the homeworld, and therefore that planets with Romulan space could hold the same clues that revealed to Varley the planet's location? I mean, with the gateways, this doesn't even have to apply, it just adds a bit more urgency considering Iconia was about halfway between the two powers.
You're right, he had no evidence. But that potential threat was all he needed to act.
quote:Agreed on all counts but there was no rush to violate treaty or any excuse not to notify command: you're assuming the Romulans were close to discovering Iconia but if they had'nt done so after a century of the Zone being there, I doubt they'd just get lucky. Varley tipped his hand to them that something of intrest was there by violating the zone.
I disagree. Regardless of whether or not the Romulans were aware of or were close to being aware of the location of Iconia, once you figure out "Hey, there's a weapon in easy reach of the Romulans which could enable them to destroy the Federation", it's not exactly time to sit around for a month while the Federation Council mediates on how to proceed. You've been granted the authority to command a starship by Starfleet, which means very little direct oversight from Command, and a great deal of freedom to proceed on your own authority. Varley decided that the risk was great enough to proceed immediately, and I agree.
quote:Well for starters I'd have filed a report (scrambled to prevent eavesdropping, of course) to starfleet command. That would have taken what, ten minutes?
Yeah, but we know that even in the 24th Century, communications with starships on the Neutral Zone with Command isn't instintaneous. Varley could've sent out a subspace message, or perhaps a probe to a nearby starbase, "This is Varley. Have possibly located Iconia in Neutral Zone. Proceeding to verify and if true, destroy any advanced technology. I assume full responsibility for entering the Neutral Zone. Best, - Donald."
Then we have to assume that the message is recieved by Starfleet, and relayed back to Picard -- "Hey, listen, Donald thinks he found Iconia and maybe Santa Clause, keep an eye out for him, eh?" -- before Varley contacts Picard "Hey, Jean-Luc, remember those Orion slave girls back in our Academy Days? Hahahah. Oh, reason I called - I'm in the Neutral Zone, and, er, could use your help. Thanks dude!"
We have no evidence that Varley didn't relay his intentions to Starfleet Command, all we know is that Picard was never informed of this. And really, if Varley had chatted with the mission about Admiral Neyechev, do you really think Starfleet Command would've blabbed to all its starships and starbases on the Zone, "Hey, the Yamato went into the Neutral Zone, wave hi." With such a delicate mission, it's not unlikely that Command might've kept a wrap on it - what would the Romulans' reaction had been if Federation starships suddenly started mobilizing (in response to a feared retaliation of the Yamato's entry into the NZ), coupled with seeing a Galaxy-Class starship flying around the Zone.
quote:I think he knew starfleet would not risk a war on such circumstantial evidence and so he went in with no backup. Picard would not have made that mistake.
And as we've seen, Starship Captain often take matters into their own hands for what they perceive to be the greater good. The best example is probably Sisko, who in "The Search pt. II" believed that the Federation was about to hand the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, and if it had been reality, he would have given his life to close the wormhole and save the Federation. Varley's actions were little different (except he wasn't having his mind fooled by a Dominion mind-fooling machine).
As for Picard not "making that mistake" - how many times has Picard ignored his own orders? Let's see, in "First Contact" he breaks off the Neutral Zone patrol, and in "Insurrection" he, well, leads an insurrection against the Federation (in a manner of speaking). You're right - Picard wouldn't have made that mistake, because it wasn't a mistake. It was the correct course of action.
quote:His evidence was NOT "dead on": he had nothing but a hunch that turned out to be right on this one occasion: no diffrent than Ben Maxwell's hunch the Cardassians were building up weapons again. While correct, Starfleet does not take such provicative actions without clearance from Command.
Hold on here. Maxwell wasn't going around beaming down intelligence teams and taking photos of Cardassian instillations proving they were re-arming: he was attacking and destroying Cardassian ships for no real gain except to provoke a war for revenge against those who killed his family. Varley wasn't motivated by revenge, he was motivated by concern for the citizens of the Federation that he had taken an oath to defend.
quote:Saved the Federation? How? He didint destroy the Iconian Tech: Jean Luc did that and could have done that without the Yamato's loss if only Varley had contacted him before his ship was crippled.
Oh please. Is Jean-Luc in the habit of chit-chatting with his buddy on the Desoto before he decided to abandon whatever mission the Enterprise is on before pursuing whatever it is he wants to pursue? Of course not. Is Varley supposed to have an epiphany: "Gosh, I might be scanned by an Iconian probe and have my ship fall apart from under me, should contact Jean-Luc before proceeding."
And kindly remember that if not for Varley pursuing this matter, the tech wouldn't have been destroyed at all. Picard finished what Varley started, and if Varley hadn't started it, the Romulans may well have defeated the Federation.
quote:Basic logic says otherwise. Iconia was not in danger of discovery by the Romulans, based on onscreen dialogue, until they reacted to Yamato's entering the zone and obviously looking for something.
And up until Varley figured out where Iconia was, the same held true for the Federation. But the second one of 'em figures out where the planet is, how long could it be until the other side figures it out? Probably not too long. Besides, what are the Romulans going to do in response to a ship entering the Zone (and I might add, let's not forget THEY had a ship prowling around the same area at the same time too ... coincidence? Hmmmm)?
quote:The diffrence is that the Romulans ALWAYS provoked a response to see what (if anything) their opponent will do. (according to Data in "Data's Day") whereas the Federation always forgives minor incursions into their territory with no reprecussions. Even with the Dominion flooding into the Alpha quadrant, the Federation did nothing for weeks.
If a Federation starship entering the Zone was reason for war, then certainly when Picard came storming through with KLINGON ships as back-up, Tomalack would not have stood down so easily. Sure, he might've died, but it would have been a glorious start to a new Romulan campaign against the Federation. Let's face it: the Romulans aren't going to go to war with anyone over a single ship. The Dominion blew up HOW MANY of their ships and crews, and still it took Sisko framing the Dominion for the assassination of a senator before they went to war? It's not something they'd do lightly, more probably, they'd use the Yamato's entry as a way to spawn-off an "incident" and get some good reactions for laughs and jollies.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote: As for Picard not "making that mistake" - how many times has Picard ignored his own orders? Let's see, in "First Contact" he breaks off the Neutral Zone patrol, and in "Insurrection" he, well, leads an insurrection against the Federation (in a manner of speaking). You're right - Picard wouldn't have made that mistake, because it wasn't a mistake. It was the correct course of action
Okay, Let us just say that picard of First Season TNG would not have acted that way. By First Contact he's either full of himself after countless impossible victories, from Krypton or thinks Q will save him (for what, the THIRD time?!?).
quote: And up until Varley figured out where Iconia was, the same held true for the Federation. But the second one of 'em figures out where the planet is, how long could it be until the other side figures it out? Probably not too long. Besides, what are the Romulans going to do in response to a ship entering the Zone (and I might add, let's not forget THEY had a ship prowling around the same area at the same time too ... coincidence? Hmmmm)?
Or they have cloaked sensor relays in the Zone to warn of intruders: they hate the klingons AND the Federation, so that's what I'd do- and sent the Warbird after the Yamato's detection. God only knows how Varley managed to elude the Warbird's sensors at all, so it's possible they just let him think he'd got away and followed him under cloak. they were taping Yamato's computer feed and were in the system observing when Yamato blew up after all.
You make good arguments as to urgency but Varley could also have misled the Romulans AWAY from Iconia by replicating that do-dah he had and left it on planets leading AWAY from the Zone. That's kinda what picard and company did in The Pegasus. Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :
quote: {snip} Varley could also have misled the Romulans AWAY from Iconia by replicating that do-dah he had and left it on planets leading AWAY from the Zone.
But that would have still ignored the primary problem that the Romulans would eventually discover Iconia even if a false trail detoured them for a while. Romulans are well known for their suspicion so they certainly wouldn't leave well enough alone when Iconian technological treasures fell in their lap.
Even if Varley did pursue that course of action it's highly likely that the Romulans would discover the Federation "treachery" (It's a Faaake!) and search every single planet in the Zone until they found the real Iconian tech. And yet still, we have the problem of the Romulans getting their hands on technology that would completely shift the balance of power in their favor. Once again Varley is in the position of maintaining Federation security.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It would have just bought some time. Varley could also have just launched probes into systems away from the zone set to scan for (insert rare technobabble element here)or just launched one of those Quarentine beacons on the world he got the Iconian tech from. If the Romulans are dumb enough to violate a starfleet quarentine, they'll love the tar monster that killed Yar! Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Er, it's one thing for Starfleet to put a quarantine beacon on a planet in Federation space. But if Starfleet did that in the Zone, the Romulans would say "This is interesting" and investigate. It wouldn't act as a warning - more like a "Come and Look!"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not in the Zone, just at the planet Varley picked up his little useless gizmo. In case he really thought thr Romulans were putting the pieces together before he violated the Treaty and entered the zone.
Any way we look at it, there would have to be a story or three either explaining Varley's motivations more clearly (as almost every class M planet with ruins could yield aincent precoursor weapons or tech), a story with the Romulans looking for either Iconia in the Zone or doing some sneaky shit there afterward . There's just a LOT of unanswered questions for me, but such is the fate of all good first season TNG stories (I think there were three).
You'd think Starfleet would be keeping tabs on archeogical sites after this and after vulcan telepathic weapon...and that stupid episode with "The Preservers'" genetic recording.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Not in the Zone, just at the planet Varley picked up his little useless gizmo. In case he really thought thr Romulans were putting the pieces together before he violated the Treaty and entered the zone.
That would keep other Federation captains from locating Iconia, wouldn't do much to stop the Romulans.
quote:Any way we look at it, there would have to be a story or three either explaining Varley's motivations more clearly (as almost every class M planet with ruins could yield aincent precoursor weapons or tech), a story with the Romulans looking for either Iconia in the Zone or doing some sneaky shit there afterward .
Well, not "almost" every - first you've got to find a former Iconian world with remements of their technology. Then you've got to have someone with an interest in archeology to know what has been located, and do other neat tricks (like adjusting for stellar drift) to locate Iconia.
quote:There's just a LOT of unanswered questions for me, but such is the fate of all good first season TNG stories (I think there were three).
Sure. "Conspiracy", "The Neutral Zone" and "Heart of Glory", IMO. "Contagion" was season two.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
for all we know, Varley mightve been tipped off by some defector, informant, sme discovery on a planet he was visiting.. i mean thats how most of the Enterprise's missions go.. look at "The Chase" on the surface, it is difficult to explain Picard's actions but we watched all the good reasons unfold. Varley mightve experienced similar situations leading up to the fateful mission
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
The mistakes made are actualy common ones among naval officers. Ego is at the root of it. Faced with his ship failing without a logical reason put him into a brain lock. His character gave a window to how things like that go down in the real world and made him memorable.
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