posted
I sit here watching the last mission of the USS Yamato and I can't help but wonder what the hell Captain Varley was thinking going into the Neutral Zone. He discovers the Iconian homeworld, his ship begins to have system failures,gets spotted by a Romulan cruiser and manages to lose them in a asteroid field: still remains in Neutral zone, loses an entire engineering team and still thinks beaming non essential personell to the Enterprise is "uncalled for...at least not yet". Lotsa of dead Starfleeters over his obsession.
your thoughts?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Well, I think Varley is a lot like Picard in some respects. In the same situation, Picard may have done the same thing. However, I think that after being chased by a Romulan cruiser, Picard would have left the Neutral Zone.
-------------------- I haul cardboard and cardboard accessories
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
As I recall, the Yamato's search for Iconia began as your average research mission. Varley's "reckless" decisions didn't begin until it became clear that Iconia might be within the Neutral Zone and might reasonably be believed to still contain Iconian artifacts and technologies. His decision to pursue the search was based on the concern of Iconian technology falling into Romulan hands. Now, on the one hand, this was ultimately a bad decision, as it led to the destruction of his ship. But his concerns about Iconia, specifically that it could pose a grave security threat to the Federation, do not seem unreasonable to me, and this is the kind of snap decision that Starfleet captains would appear to be entrusted with by the UFP.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
My real gripes with Varley is the baaaad decision not to evac non essential personell and the fact that if he had not entered he NZ the Romulans might never have bothered scouring that backwater world at all. Also, even after Picard destroyed the last bit of tech on Iconia, the romulans would have sent cloaked ship to search every other possible artifact locations for leftover Iconian tech. It might have led to their phasing cloak experiments and super systems on the Scimitar. ...or they might still find some.
On DS9 we saw that the Iconians went as far as the gamma Quadrant at least: it sure would be bad news for the galaxy in the borg got that tech.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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First off, he definately didn't want the Romulans to get their hands on Iconian technology. So he felt it was best to make sure that he gets to the Iconian homeworld before Romulans do. He sacraficed the Starfleet personel in order to do this.
Then again, he didn't offload the non-essential personel and civilians when he had the chance. Also, finding the planet lead the Romulans to the damn place.
In conclusion, there is best case scenario. Either the Federation sends a secret team or Section 31 does to destroy and take Iconian tech and the Romulans find out and peace goes to hell in a handbasket or rumors from the Federation about Iconia brings the Romulans to the Neutral Zone and peace goes to hell in a handbasket.
-------------------- "It speaks to some basic human needs: that there is a tomorrow, it's not all going to be over with a big splash and a bomb, that the human race is improving, that we have things to be proud of as humans." -Gene Roddenberry about Star Trek
Registered: May 1999
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posted
That's the kind of thing that would happen if a derelict Borg cube or Planetkiller was found somewhere. There are lots of older high tech races out there with a bad track record of losing their toys.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I think Starfleet's major problem with Varley is one that troubled Picard, too. They way too often placed the lives of non-essential crew and families in risk needlessly. Right off the top of my head, Picard's charge into the Neutral Zone in "The Defector" wasn't all that different from what Varley did, even if Picard DID have an (well, three) aces-in-the-sleeve.
posted
...and yet when the cadets of dead...er...Red Squad do the same damn thing, they're considered foolhardy and their captain was "bad".
Varley should have at least contacted Picard. Picard would have understood the problembetter than anyone else and the Enterprise was doubtlessly the closest starship anyway.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:...and yet when the cadets of dead...er...Red Squad do the same damn thing, they're considered foolhardy and their captain was "bad".
I haven't seen the episode in a while. But, frankly, YES! I forget how the comissioned officers were killed, but I think it was because their comissioned captain decided that Red Squad was fit to see combat and serve duty. Well, maybe. But his flaw was in thinking that Red Squad was ready to make command decisions -- and they AREN'T!
Their original captain should've high-tailed it back to base, gotten an experienced crew, and probably could've done a lot more damage against the Dominion then with a bunch of snobby know-it-all cadets without the practical experience to make the decisions that Varley and Picard did.
Just because you're the top Red Squad cadet commander, when all you have is four years of Academy marching and lectures, you're going to fall well short of the command abilities of someone like Picard, with literally decades of experience under his belt.
The original captain of the Valiant should have been aware of this. The Red Squad captain was too ARROGRANT to be aware of this, and he got his crew killed on account of his own pride ... and that's something Picard or Varley wouldn't do.
As a side note: the fact that Red Squad's CO misled (LIED THROUGH HIS FUCKING TEETH) Starfleet as to the status of the Valiant's commissioned crew, simply points to his unworthiness to command. He was so desperate for the opportunity, he got himself and most of his crew killed, and destroyed an expensive and powerful starship in the process that could've been a greater asset to the Federation in the hands of a capable commander. Don't compare this ignorant snot to Picard, or Varley.
posted
Red squad mightb not have been ready to make the big decisions, but they all risked their own lives to try to destroy the Dominion Battleship whereas Varley risked many non-starfleeters on a mission that could have waited for a ship without civillians and choc full of archeoligists. Varley let his intrest in the Iconians cloud his better judgement. He very well could have started a war that would have cost thousands (or millions!) of lives on the off chance there was Iconian tech on the planet. In this case, there was a threat, but the ends don't justify the means.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Red squad mightb not have been ready to make the big decisions, but they all risked their own lives to try to destroy the Dominion Battleship whereas Varley risked many non-starfleeters on a mission that could have waited for a ship without civillians and choc full of archeoligists.
Red Squad failed because they didn't have the know-how to complete their mission. Red Squad found a threat, but they acted improperly, and decieved Starfleet as to their status - Starfleet believed the ship was being commanded by its comissioned officers, when it wasn't. The difference between what Red Squad did and what Varley did was fantastic.
Varley had to make a quick decision -- oh crap, the Romulans might be snooping around Iconia! The Iconian technology would have given the Romulans a great technological edge over the Federation, and potentially the motive to start a war to take down the Federation. Sure Varley took a risk -- but the difference between him and that Red Squad CO is that Varley had not only the experience, but the trust of Starfleet, in making that decision. The Red Squad CO had neither.
quote:Varley let his intrest in the Iconians cloud his better judgement.
Do you believe Picard's interest in the Iconians clouded his judgement? I doubt it. Picard had more info to go on that Varley did, and they acted for the same reasons -- to prevent the technology from falling into the hands of the Romulans.
quote:He very well could have started a war that would have cost thousands (or millions!) of lives on the off chance there was Iconian tech on the planet.
Well, gosh, we don't want that. Nevermind that there was already a Romulan warship doing the exact same thing that he was doing, and with the same potential consequences!
quote:In this case, there was a threat, but the ends don't justify the means.
I disagree. If Varley acted, and did cause a war, yes, billions would die.
But what if he DIDN'T act, and the Romulans DID get the Iconian technology? They would be able to bring the Federation to its knees. Varley acted to preserve the balance of power - whatever the cost.
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: [QUOTE]Do you believe Picard's interest in the Iconians clouded his judgement? I doubt it. Picard had more info to go on that Varley did, and they acted for the same reasons -- to prevent the technology from falling into the hands of the Romulans.
[QUOTE]
The romulans only started snooping around beacuse a Federation GCS violated the Neutral Zone. They were'nt looking for Iconia: varley never said they were: The Romulans spotted him in the NZ and gave chase. If a Chinese ship was snooping around an island near American waters we's be curious as to why too. Picard had no options after reading Varley's log: The log made clear that the Romulans were onto him and the Warbird did see the federation's greatest class of warship go boom over a world that inside the NZ. It would'nt have taken them very long to re-trace the Yamato's course (even if they had'nt tapped into the logs' transmissions). By the time Picard became involved it was either continue Varley's mission or definitely allow the romulans to have the tech. The NZ had been in place for at least 100 years without anyone finding Iconia so what was the rush to violate treaty?
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
The same reason that if the US discovered we'd left an intact nuclear weapon in the middle of the Korean DMZ, we probably wouldn't say, "oh, it's been there half-a-century, no rush..." in retrieving it!!!!
posted
It's more like "if we left a nuke on Bikini Atoll and no one else knew about it". The threat is still there, but sublty could avert crisis whereas sending a carrier would cause everyone in the region to see what we were up to.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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posted
Clearly, Varley didn't think he had the time to contact Starfleet to make them aware of the situation. He may have been overconfident of his ability or luck to remain off the Romulans' viewscreen, or he may have had other relevent concerns (if memory serves, the Romulans were doing their own archeological digs in the area?). Varley didn't think that he had a choice in the matter, and given what was at stake, I might be willing to consider him a "competent captain who made a mistake" (even though I don't consider his actions - except for not seperating the saucer - a mistake).
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