This is topic $$ Consequences of the movie on the original Trek universe [Spoilers] in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2000.html

---

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Okay, I've seen it. It's very good. Something that could not have been done if it followed a TV-sized philosophy of the 60s with a larger franchise that was essentially stuck in the 80s. Starting from zero is what is needed if we're to see future Trek, and this is what can do it.

But what happens to the old universe? I've largely avoided the spoiler threads, so forgive me if the nomenclature has come up already.

Let's call the Star Trek universe up to this point "Universe-1". The new film explicitly states that they're in a divergent, alternate reality that started when Nero popped through from the future and destroyed the USS Kelvin. Thus, everything from Universe 1 still happened and will continue after 2387, while this second universe (which I'll call "Universe-A" for fun) shares everything that happened to that point and is on its own afterwards.

So, stuff of note that happened in both universes that may cause a problem:

- Various temporal incursions by the Enterprise in the 1960s

- An older, heavier crew of a destroyed USS Enterprise steals some whales in 1986

- Some self-righteous woman and her lost children muck up the LA skyline and surrounding desert in 1995

- Khan apparently controlled half the planet or something like that in 1995 and is currently floating around in suspended animation somewhere

- A Borg sphere crashed in the southern polar region of Earth in 2063 and no one noticed

- Pretty much everything in "Enterprise"

...And a bunch of other stuff from Universe-1 that isn't worth bringing up. This means that a considerable amount of history in Universe-A is a reult of stuff originating in Universe-1. Most of it will likely never be touched upon as Universe-1 stories have largely cleaned up after themselves, but it's interesting to think that anyone doing pre-2258 time travel in Universe-A will be interacting in history that was influenced by alternate versions of themselves.

This is to say nothing of what has happened in the post-TNG Universe-1 that seems to have been dismissed. It has nothing to do with Universe-A anyway except that it caused Nero and Spock to show up. However, it's important to point out that in Universe-1:

- Romulus itself has been obliterated, and with it probably a large chunk of the Empire, starting with Remus (if it truly is close to Romulus)

- Ambassador Spock has sacrificed himself to save many other star systems from the same fate, and unbeknowns to anyone in Universe-1 is now trapped in the past of Universe-A

I'm sure that the Universe-1 secondary media (probably the novels and comics only) will explore the ramifications of the movie in detail. The "Countdown" prequel comics establishes CAPTAIN Data in command of the Enterprise-E, with Picard an Ambassador to Vulcan (which is not destroyed), Geordi as the engineer that built Spock's "jellyfish" ship with the Vulcans, and Worf back with the Klingons yet again as a General. One wonders how (and if) this will be followed up in the future.

Mark
 

---

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Of interest to Universe-1 is probably the Star Trek Online's "The Path to 2409" (http://www.startrekonline.com/fiction), in particular the 2387 article: http://www.startrekonline.com/timeline/2387

I'm not entirely sure that time travelers from post-2233 Universe-1 actually do still exist in Universe-A's (Neroverse?) past. I mean.. in the Neroverse, they may never go back in time in the first place. OTOH, Star Trek has never been particularly clear on what theory of time-travel they use, and in fact its handled differently every time, so I guess we can't really be sure what happens.

We can also discuss what is different in the Neroverse.. particularly, the contact with Romulans in 2233. I don't remember that they made much of a fuss about seeing Romulans, as opposed to "Balance of Terror". So..

- I can't remember, but did Captain Robau and his crew realize that the bad guys were Romulan?
- How and why would Uhura have learned Romulan languages? Theoretically humans could've known Romulan languages from the days of the Romulan War, but it seemed to be general knowledge that Romulan and Vulcan culture were very similar (see Spock's reasoning for joining Kirk in his mission to the Narada).
 

---

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
There is a built-in 25-year gap between the Kelvin's loss and the start of the fun. Plenty of time for everyone to properly learn of the existence of the Romulans and their ties with the Vulcans. I don't recall any specific dialogus from Robau about the big face on the screen being Romulan, but relative history is open season after that.

Mark
 

---

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 
See, this is actually what's been driving me crazy the most since I saw this last night.

First, what to call the two universes. Awesome Futurama jokes aside, Nimoy's Spock was credited as "Spock Prime." Therefore the original timeline is "Prime." The Prime timeline. Or the Primeline.

As for what's actually happened, temporally speaking...

A couple of months ago, I think, the writers of the movie gave an interview in which they said they were going with the multiverse theory of time travel. When you travel back in time, you don't actually change your own timeline. You just create a second timeline, and the first one goes on without you.

That oddly seemed to agree with me, since I really didn't want to see the original series, Next Generation, etc., not exist anymore. And as Harry stated, that's the theory that Star Trek Online seems to be taking, since it takes place in the Primeline.

But nothing in the movie's dialog seems to imply the multiverse theory. In fact, the dialog seemed to go with the idea that the original timeline was wiped out. So, I'm not sure what to think at this point.

Maybe I'll just blame Braxton. It's what I always do anyway.
 

---

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
I did postulate before I saw the movie that some of the differences (ie ship and costume designs) that appeared to have been in place prior to Nero's arrival would be a result of some or all of the Trek-Prime being negated or altered.

For example, the Cetacean probe is probably still on it's way, so assuming that will be dealt with in a similar manner then George, Gracie and Dr Taylor may have still disappeared from the late 80s, the the precise circumstances would be different (for one thing Spock would not have recently visited Mt Selaya.)

On the other hand, the Sisko (if he's ever born) may never find himself in the middle of the Bell riots so if you looked Gabriel Bell up in the Trek-Secundus he may not necessarily look like Avery Brooks.
It's all very complicated and there's no way you can pick at all the strands and make it ALL work, especially when you try and factor in the mirror universe. I can only theorise that since the Prime and Prime-Mirror universes are so oddly entangled that when one of them make a "quantum split" they both split, which would mean that the Secundus universe would have it's own slightly different mirrored companion universe. One where Empress Sato still took power with the Defiant, but a Defiant from the Secundus that looks like the Secundus NCC-1701. Whether or not the Terran Empire falls because of Kirk's advise to Mirror-Spock remains to be seen.

And now I have a question; was George Kirk Jr Jim's older or younger brother? if the latter then neither he or by extension Peter would exist in this universe. An older brother certainly wasn't mentioned, but could still conceivably have existed off-screen.

A few more consequences that occur to me: -

• Any Vulcan character alive in this period or born afterwards may now never have existed, though there's only a handful of notable examples.

• I was going to mention Tuvok, but he wasn't born on Vulcan, so it's possible his parents survived.

• Carol Marcus and David may or may not still be in Kirk's future, therefore the event's of TWoK may still play out similarly, though as I mentioned before, the Katra would have to be refused on New Vulcan (or whatever they end up calling the colony.)

• It seams unlikely that Pike ever visited Talos IV.

• Kirk may end up trapped in the nexus indefinitely.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Krenim:
But nothing in the movie's dialog seems to imply the multiverse theory. In fact, the dialog seemed to go with the idea that the original timeline was wiped out. So, I'm not sure what to think at this point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Krenim:
...
Nimoy's Spock was credited as "Spock Prime." Therefore the original timeline is "Prime." The Prime timeline. Or the Primeline.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Rev - Sam Kirk was older, and he does exist. I didn't notice at the time (but I did when I checked IMDB), he's the older kid Jim drives past in the stolen car.

---

quote:

---

but for the most part the actual time travel stories have suggested a single timeline which, when altered, reshapes the Trek fictional universe.

---

code:

---

UNIVERSE A | UNIVERSE B | UNIVERSE C | UNIVERSE D
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
-------------------------------------------------
    A's          B's         C's          D's
 timeline  |  timeline  |  timeline  |  timeline
-------------------------------------------------
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||
     ||          ||          ||           ||

---

In Trek, universes have timelines, but if you screw with a timeline you have screwed with The Timeline for that universe. But this is not the same as actually hopping to or creating a new universe.

The Orci theory involves each of those columns above having sub-columns . . . that is, a single instance of time travel can make a Y appear like a fork in the road, and thus two parallel timelines are formed, and other parallels off of those, and so on.

Thus Orci's timelines are functionally equivalent to multiple universes, since they would both serve as columns in the above.
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
OK I've been thinking about this too.

So I think now we have to assume there are two types of time-travel in the Trek Universe. The 'singular universe timeline' - which most of Trek to date has dealt with. This Multiverse timeline of the movie - now exists alongside the other type. I guess it's what caused the time travel to beginwith - and for this movie it appears it was the Red-Matter anomaly. So maybe using that stuff triggers an alternate reality instead of just time travel on the same time-stream.

So yes, Spock is presumably killed in the supernova/destruction of Romulus and goes into the alternate timeline with Nero. As for the whole - "he entered at a different time than Nero" - maybe he got caught-up in the anomaly and proceeded through with Nero only came out a bit later. Anyway - it's a different reality - he's from the Universe 1 moving to universe A - whatever Nero does in the past isn't going to affect him.

Maybe we can call them nimoyverse and quintoverse?



So now we have two Star Trek universes to play in. Enterprise etc. still happened - they mentioned Admiral Archer and his Beagle (presumably not Porthos... but people tend to keep getting dogs from the same breed).

Stuff from Universe 1 was still allowed to let all the past 1960s, 1980s, 1990s, early 2000s etc time travel to happen. I guess the new movie is just a branch of the other.

1 A
^ ^
| |
| |
| |
|/ Nero Appears
|
|
|
| First Contact etc.
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Just thinking about it - was it an accident that Nero got pulled through into the past? Or was that a gutless way to destroy Vulcan?

ALSO - the destruction on Romulus is now an established fact in (the preferable) original timeline. This actually fits nicely with the events in All Good Things... where the Klingon Empire have absorbed the Romulan Empire... although I do think they say Romulus was still around. Maybe it was 'new Romulus' - I'm gathering big-arsed galactic events like this giant supernova happen across all timelines... unless it was artificially precipitated... maybe by the Borg!! LOL Just gonna throw that in there.
 

---

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
It was defiantly an accident.

As for the state of the galaxy in the Trek-Prime 24th century, I think that's being covered by that MMO they're developing. I gather that even before Romulus was destroyed that the Empire had already fractured. No idea if Paramount even care about continuity enough to make anything "offical", but at this point it seems unlikely that there will ever be another live action film or series in the Prime universe. I think for the foreseeable future that'll be the exclusive domain of books comics and games.
Oh and in 'All Good Things' the Klingons hadn't just absorbed old Romulan territory, they'd conquered it.
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
I can't remember - was Romulus still around?

And truth be told - Even though the movie was good and all - I do miss the old prime universe.
 

---

Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
 
In the Nero'verse yes, in the Prime'verse no.
 

---

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 
The instant the Enterprise-E arrived in 2063, they created a new timeline in which they were instrumental in Cochrane's first flight.

Alternate timelines have been part of Star Trek for ages, it just hasn't been massive changes such as the one in the latest movie.
 

---

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Krenim:

A couple of months ago, I think, the writers of the movie gave an interview in which they said they were going with the multiverse theory of time travel. When you travel back in time, you don't actually change your own timeline. You just create a second timeline, and the first one goes on without you.

That oddly seemed to agree with me, since I really didn't want to see the original series, Next Generation, etc., not exist anymore. And as Harry stated, that's the theory that Star Trek Online seems to be taking, since it takes place in the Primeline.

---

quote:

---

from trekmovie.com
EXCLUSIVE: Bob Orci Explains How The New Star Trek Movie Fits With Trek Canon (and Real Science)

December 11, 2008
by Anthony Pascale , Filed under: Interview, Orci/Kurtzman, Science/Technology, Star Trek (2009 film) , trackback
One topic that seems to come up quite a bit with Trek fans regarding the new Star Trek movie, it is the subject of the Star Trek continuity (or canon). It has been the contention of the film makers that despite how some things may appear to be rewriting Trek’s history, the movie fits within Trek’s canon. In a very detailed conversation with TrekMovie’s Anthony Pascale, Star Trek co-writer Roberto Orci finally explains how it all fits together. [SPOILERS BELOW]

Bob and Anthony talk Time Travel, canon, paradoxes, physics and more

Background: As a follow-up to our earlier ‘post November’ interview with Star Trek co-writer Bob Orci is the following conversation between Bob and TrekMovie.com editor Anthony Pascale. It is presented as a ‘conversation’ because it is more of a chat between two Trekkies diving deep down a nerdy rabbit hole, than a traditional interview. Understanding the issues discussed is not required to watch the movie or enjoy it, but is presented to answer the follow-up questions about how the film ‘fits’ with Trek and with science.

The subject of the discussion was how to reconcile a number of issues. Since day one with regards to this project, it has been stated that the new movie is not a ‘reboot’ like the recent Batman, Bond and Battlestar Galactica, but will fit within Trek canon. However, just by looking at the new trailer and certainly based on JJ Abrams four scene preview tour (see TrekMovie report), some things appear not to fit within canon. Or do they? Many have noted that the report in Entertainment Weekly revealing how the film’s villain Nero travels through time to attack the ship carrying James T. Kirk’s parents might somehow come into play. But if so, then there are implications related to Trek history, as well as real and ‘Trek’ science. And that is where this discussion begins.

[NOTE: The discussion goes pretty deep into science and Trek lore, so for those who just want the quick version, skip to the summary at the bottom]

Anthony: OK, now let’s get really into it. From the trailer, and certainly from the four scene preview, there is no doubt that things are different. Pike and Kirk are hanging out in a bar. The ship looks different. Kirk is on the Enterprise and not headed to the Farragut. People are seeing Romulans…things are different. Now it has been revealed in the Entertainment Weekly article that Nero goes back in time and attacks the Kelvin, and JJ also talked about this during his previews. So the big question is: Is the destruction of the Kelvin, the canon reason why everything is different?

Bob: It is the reason why some things are different, but not everything is different. Not everything is inconsistent with what might have actually happened, in canon. Some of the things that seem that they are totally different, I will argue, once the film comes out, fall well within what could have been the non-time travel version of this move.

Anthony: So, for example, Kirk is different, because his back story has totally changed, in that his parents…and all that. But you are saying that maybe Scotty or Spock’s back story would not be affected by that change?

Bob: Right.

Anthony: Does the time travel explain why the Enterprise looks different and why it is being built in Riverside Iowa?

Bob: Yes, and yes.

Anthony: OK, well then some fans will say ‘fair enough, alternate timeline, we are used to that, but that is not my Kirk, that is some other Kirk.’ So is this still our movie, or are we seeing some other version of Star Trek?

Bob: Well that depends on whether or not you believe in nature or nurture and how much you believe in, for lack of a better word, their souls. I would argue that for the characters, their true nature does not change. Our motto for this movie was ’same ship, different day.’

Anthony: So then is time travel, and the alternative timeline, just a way to do a BSG-style reboot, while still remaining canon?

Bob: In some one else’s hands, maybe, but, again, much of what you will see could conform to classic canon, and thus we were not relying it as an excuse to change everything.

Anthony: So even though some things, most notably Kirk himself, are on a different path (for example he doesn’t go to the Farragut after the Academy), he still ends up on the Enterprise with Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Spock, etc. Are you saying there is some kind of ‘entropy’ perhaps? So even though some things are different, they gravitate towards some kind of center point?

Bob: Yes. If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening. And that the most probable events tend to happen more often and that one of the subsets of that theory is the many universe theory. Data said this [in "Parallels"], he summed up quantum mechanics as the theory that "all possibilities that can happen do happen" in a parallel universe. According to theory, there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way. This is not something we are making up; this is something we researched, in terms of the physical theory. So yes, there is an element of the universe trying to hold itself together.

Anthony: OK so let’s call the timeline Nero left, as ‘the prime timeline’, so that means that the USS Kelvin, as designed and seen in the trailer, that is also in the prime timeline?

Bob: Yes

Anthony: So what happens with the destruction of the Kelvin is the creation of an alternative timeline, but what happens to the prime timeline after Nero leaves it? Does it continue or does it wink out of existence once he goes back and creates this new timeline.

Bob: It continues. According to the most successful, most tested scientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.

Anthony: So everyone in the prime timeline, like Picard and Riker, are still off doing there thing, it is just that Nero is gone.

Bob: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.

Anthony: OK we just dove pretty deep into Trek physics minutiae. Is any of that discussed in the film? In "Back To The Future II," there is that scene with the Doc and Marty, where the Doc explains time travel to Marty on a chalkboard. Does Spock ever do that with Kirk?

Bob: It would seem very logical. Quantum mechanics avoids the grandfather paradox that Back to the Future relies on, which is: you can go back in Back to the Future and screw with your own birth and potentially invalidate your own birth. In quantum mechanics that is not the case. In quantum mechanics, if you go back and kill your own father, then you just live on as the guy who came in from another universe who lives in a universe where you killed some guy, but you don’t erase your existence doing that.

Anthony: And you believe that the Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is the Star Trek interpretation, based on "Parallels."

Bob: Yes. I would argue that at the very least, if we are going to do our Star Trek, it has to conform to the latest scientific theories and the most advanced and complete, and right now that is quantum mechanics.

Anthony: Star Trek has not always been consistent in this regard. For example both "Yesterday’s Enterprise" and "City on the Edge of Forever" seem to follow the Back to the Future rules of time travel, where new timelines overwrite previous timelines.

Bob: We have to deal with it, with the fact that Star Trek episodes that don’t conform to our theory of it, also do not conform to the latest greatest, most highly tested scientific theory in human history. So I would default that it is the science that counts. And say in the case of "Star Trek IV," it could go either way. They cross over to a parallel universe and grab some whales and bring them back and save their own universe.

Anthony: Although the "Parallels" view of time travel resolves the paradoxes and is based on quantum physics, doesn’t it also affect the level of the drama? Are there still life and death stakes if anything you do in the past has no real effect on the timeline you started in?

Bob: There are, of course, life and death stakes, they simply don’t involve the cartoonyness of having a picture of yourself fading away because you bumped into your mother [as it was in "Back to the Future"]. We are not relying on the time travel element to tell a good story. That’s why this is not "Terminator" or any other movie you’ve seen before. And yet, oddly, as a practical matter, most people who see this movie will not have read this interview. Most of the audience will assume the classical time travel rules still apply.

Anthony: Well in the history of Star Trek there are dozens of recorded time travel events, and so does every single one of those create a new timeline. For example when Ben Sisko goes back in time ["Past Tense"] and becomes Gabriel Bell, does every Trek episode after that exist in an alternative timeline where Ben Sisko is Gabriel Bell?

Bob: I would argue that, yes, any time there is time travel that they created a parallel universe, if they want to conform to our most current and advanced thinking on the matter, which is quantum mechanics.

Anthony: So starting with "The Naked Time," which is the first episode of Star Trek with time travel, where they just went briefly back in time and that even though they didn’t change anything, merely by going back in time they created a new timeline?

Bob: Yes

Anthony: And even though they are all very similar, that we are up to something like the 57th* timeline when we get to Nemesis due to all the previous time traveling.

Bob: If we take Data’s description of the most current and awesome scientific theory to heart, then there is no prime timeline. If everything that can happen, does happen, who is to say what the right timeline is.

Anthony: But elder Spock and Nero come from the last known Star Trek timeline, which is the post-Nemesis, Next Generation era, right?

Bob: Right, that is where they are starting, yes.

Anthony: And that timeline lives on after they leave?

Bob: Yes.

Anthony: Traditionally in time travel plots from "Yesterdays Enterprise", "Star Trek: First Contact" and "City on the Edge of Forever" to the Back to the Future and Terminator series, the goal of the protagonists is to protect or restore the original timeline. Is that also the case in this movie? Is Spock’s mission to restore his original timeline?

Bob: No comment, I can’t give everything away [laughs]


To summarize…in FAQ form

All of the above can be a bit much to take in, and to paraphrase Captain Janeway ‘time travel gives you a headache.’ In reality you really won’t need to understand any of this to watch the movie. The above explains (in possibly too much detail) how the film resolves both the paradox of how the movie can appear different, but fit within canon, as well as how the film resolves the traditional paradoxes associated with time travel. So here it is in a simpler FAQ.

Q: Why do some things appear different in the new Star Trek movie?
A: There is an alternative timeline created by Nero traveling back in time.

Q: Is everything different in the alternative timeline?
A: No, some things remain the same.

Q: Does this alternative timeline wipe out the original timeline (from TOS -Nemesis)?
A: No, quantum theory says they both co-exist.

Q: Does the original timeline continue?
A: Yes, again as explained by quantum theory.

Q: Does this quantum theory approach conform to ‘Trek science?’
A: Depends on the episode, but it is explicitly cited by Data in the episode “Parallels.”

* 57 was just a number pulled out of the air. In actuality (according to Memory Alpha) there are 53 Star Trek episodes (including movies) involving time travel, many with multiple time travel events within them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend:
In the Nero'verse yes, in the Prime'verse no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewR:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend:
In the Nero'verse yes, in the Prime'verse no.

---

I just read that link - Romulus was destroyed. Why'd you say no?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
1. Romulans from the Prime timeline have had ridges since at least the 2100s. (And tattoos have never been observed as a Romulan normal trait, even among the civilians.) Nero and the gang do not have ridges. Ergo they are not our Romulans.

---

quote:

---

Even in the Supernova timeline, they give stardates just like they do in BH 2233, a modified timeline.

---

quote:

---

Supernova Spock says Scotty discovered transwarp beaming. Our Scotty never did that.

---

quote:

---

As soon as Nero fell in, the timeline ought to have changed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

---

Supernova Spock says Scotty discovered transwarp beaming. Our Scotty never did that.

---

Why do you say that? We have no idea what Scotty did or didn't do after we last saw him in "Relics" (TNG).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
1. Romulans from the Prime timeline have had ridges since at least the 2100s. (And tattoos have never been observed as a Romulan normal trait, even among the civilians.) Nero and the gang do not have ridges. Ergo they are not our Romulans.

---

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

As soon as Nero fell in, the timeline ought to have changed.

---

No, it would have changed when he came out, which according to Spock was "minutes" later. Besides, they aren't using the "one timeline" theory any more, but rather the "many timelines" theory. For all we know, all our previous observations about how time travel works have been wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend:

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewR:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reverend:
In the Nero'verse yes, in the Prime'verse no.

---

I just read that link - Romulus was destroyed. Why'd you say no?

---

Uh, because you asked if it was still around. Shall I draw you a diagram?

---

I meant in ALL GOOD THINGS... Shall I draw YOU a diagram?
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
The main thing that worries me about the movie and the new timeline... is that this is now the main trek timeline... it's an upstart. It was a good movie and all but 1 two hour movie does not deserve to replace 40 years of established star trek. I know I know it doesn't but having just seen the movie and it still fresh in my mind and it's subject matter of time travel and time being rewritten I have this fear that people are going to accept this as the trek universe now. I know it sounds silly but the prime universe has a place in my heart and mind - as I'm sure it does in most people here. It's sorta weird to have it 'rewritten'. Yes silly I know, I know. I think I just need to go and watch some more 'Prime Universe' Star Trek. And it's also sad to think there's not going to be any more of that too. Hopefully it wont be too long and we'll get a new series set in the original universe. Will we ever get something in the original universe again? I hope the new movie's universe is always made clear and destinct from our own... I mean hehehe, from the prime universe.
 

---

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
[qb]1. Romulans from the Prime timeline have had ridges since at least the 2100s. (And tattoos have never been observed as a Romulan normal trait, even among the civilians.) Nero and the gang do not have ridges. Ergo they are not our Romulans.

---

Not in TOS they didn't,

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Even in the Supernova timeline, they give stardates just like they do in BH 2233, a modified timeline.

---

So at some point between 2379 and the 2380s they went back to an older system of stardates. We've already seen them change dating conventions twice before.

---

quote:

---

We have no idea what Scotty did or didn't do after we last saw him in "Relics" (TNG).

---

quote:

---

No, it would have changed when he came out, which according to Spock was "minutes" later.

---

quote:

---

Besides, they aren't using the "one timeline" theory any more, but rather the "many timelines" theory. For all we know, all our previous observations about how time travel works have been wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewR:
These were mining ship Romulans.

---

quote:

---

how many people are now gonna think that the Prime Timeline/Universe is gone forever!?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
You sure? There are exceptions, but most of the Romulans in TOS had helmets which featured the same forehead design. And no such Romulans have been seen in the 24th Century.

---

quote:

---

Are you suggesting the unlikely scenario that this just so happens to be a ship totally staffed by a minority of smooth-headed Romulans? Do you have any evidence for this unlikely situation?

---

quote:

---

We've only seen one change of stardate schemes in 200+ years of Federation history. The Earth Starfleet used Earth-normal dating conventions.

---

quote:

---

But again, your argument hinges on the argumentum ad ignorantium . . . specifically in this case, that no matter what changes are evident, they are based on a change that occurred between 2379 and 2387, no matter how unlikely.

---

quote:

---

There's simply too much that is too different and would've been too easy to make not different, and no reason to jump all 100 hoops to get to it.

---

quote:

---

I do not remember that line. However, I would've thought that going into the black hole in SN 2387 and coming out in BH 2233 would be simultaneous. After all, minutes spent in time travel have no real meaning when you get down to it.

---

quote:

---

Our observations are not wrong. Our conclusions might be

---

quote:

---

the producers have ignored the Trek time travel principles standard to the productions for 40 years

---

quote:

---

That simply means that, if we choose to care enough to try to make a cohesive whole out of it, we have to get more creative with our conclusions.

---

Again, I am working from the same principle. And forgive me, but I think you're getting a little too creative for your own good, here. I think we're supposed to take what we see at face value, but with the caveat that retconning is a continual process carried out by whoever the current caretakers of the franchise happen to be, and ultimately we must defer to that until the next bunch come along.


The whole point of including Nimoy in the film was to pass on the Trek mantle, just as had been done with every preceeding iteration. If Spock Prime (and, indeed, the title itself is an indication of intent) is some further alternate as you suggest, that aspect is gutted. Therefore, your scenario is dramatically unworkable.

Don't get me wrong, I have plenty of issues with the creative decisions behind the new film, and if I'd been in charge I would've done things differently. But, just as it was with ENT, I feel it's counterproductive to work toward the exclusion of what we don't like rather than its inclusion.

-MMoM

[ May 12, 2009, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Wonder what will happen with the supernova in this alternate universe timeline? These 'natural' things like supernovae are bound to happen in more than one reality - unless it was artificially created. Will history repeat itself? Will Romulus still be destroyed again? Maybe in time for another cast in 40 years.
 

---

Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
 
In the alternate timeline, it should be possible to save Romulus. Spock Prime should at least be able to identify the star that went nova, and might even be able to instruct the Federation on how to produce red matter. Collapsing the supernova in the prime timeline wasn't the problem - Spock just didn't get there fast enough to save Romulus. With 129 years of a lead he should be able to get something sorted out.
 

---

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
Oh, and one more thing @ G2k:

quote:

---

We quickly wind up with Sagan's Dragon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
Mark Lenard's Commander and his Centurian, the female Commander, Caithlin Dar, Ambassador Nanclus, all of the Romulan delegation from TUC, etc, had no ridges.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

But again, your argument hinges on the argumentum ad ignorantium . . . specifically in this case, that no matter what changes are evident, they are based on a change that occurred between 2379 and 2387, no matter how unlikely.

---

What it hinges on is the clearly-stated intent of TPTB.

---

quote:

---

Spock Prime told Kirk his passage through the anomaly "was only minutes to me."

---

quote:

---

I think we're supposed to take what we see at face value, but with the caveat that retconning is a continual process carried out by whoever the current caretakers of the franchise happen to be, and ultimately we must defer to that until the next bunch come along.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mars Needs Women:
Here's a thought:

So let's say ST IX does erase the primeline. Would that mean that Nero and Old Spock would have to now come from the new universe and do everything their primeline counterparts did in order for this universe to persist? If this were the case, the new timeline could essentially erase itself by having its Hobus Star destroyed before it can destroy Romulus. Events would play out differently since Nero would not have an incentive to go all evil, pimp out his mining freighter, then lead said pimped out freighter through a serious of events that would lead him to be sent back in time. So then I guess time would correct itself, and we would have the Primeline minus the whole Romulus being destroyed event.

Or maybe not?

---

Thgis bit of paradox is nicely explained in the most recent film version of the Time Machine- even if events dont coorespond exactly to the original timeline, the cause for the traveler going back in time will remain valid- The Time Traveler's girlfriend kept getting killed in diffrent ways but, as she was the reason he invented the machine in the first place, he could not save her.

In Trek, we have both causeality and alternate timelines (usually represented as alternate universes, but still another timeline).

It sure would be funny if this new timeline uses Spock Prime's knowldege to prevent every calamity the Federaion will face (Tomed Incident, Borg, etc.) and as result, becomes a Terran Empire equilivent.
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
True - It makes you wonder if they thought about this. Or will Spock not divulge the future. Seeing as things have been irreparibly changed what would it matter. Would he want the lives of the people who died in the Tomed Incident or the Borg invasions on his hands? Or the Dominion Wars.

I suppose if you change one thing it's gonna mean things a century later are going to be way different.

Spock could become some sort of GOD. I mean literally - he could go and discover the Bajoran Wormhole!

Do you think the fleet in the Laurentian system has something to do with the Kelvin being destroyed and the presence of future Romulans in the past? Although - at the same time in the normal timeline - we obviously knew nothing about what was going on elsewhere in the Federation.
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:

But the conversation by the BH Enterprise crew makes it fairly clear that the old timeline is wiped away ("destinies have changed", et cetera), despite Orci's statements to the contrary. In other words, there is a contradiction (or at least some damn strong contrariness) between what was said and what was intended.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bX:
I think your nomenclature has me confused, G2K. I think that you are asserting that everything in the new movie is alternate, even the so-called Prime Timeline where the supernova is going to blow up the galaxy or whatever...

---

quote:

---

Anyway, the JJVerse (Neroverse? BH timeline? 2009 timeverse? Dawsonverse?) continues on with a youth-y crew, tons of lensflares

---

More proof of an alternate universe . . . we mere 20th Century-born folk would be blinded by such incessant flashing!

quote:

---

But the Primeline goes on too.

---

quote:

---

I'm sorry I'm not grasping your BH / SN stardate thing.

---

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear.

BH = Black Hole timeline, the one starting with the 2233 event of a black hole pooping out the Narada. The main timeline of the new film. The main action of the new film occurs in BH 2258.

SN = Supernova timeline. This is the one Nero and Spock came from, departing in SN 2387. It is what most people are assuming is the Prime (TOS, TNG, etc.) timeline.

PT = Prime timeline. "The Cage" occurs in PT 2254.

Nero = Nero of the Supernova timeline, since that's the only one we know, really.

Supernova Spock = Spock from the Supernova (SN) timeline. Listed in the film credits as Spock Prime. Also a workable band name.

NOBH = "Nero-Only Black Hole" timeline . . . i.e. what if Supernova Spock escaped or otherwise did not enter the SN 2387 black hole. Given that seconds pass between Nero's entry and Spock's, I have explored slightly the idea that history was altered after Nero went in but before Spock . . . i.e. the Supernova timeline should've been changed by Nero's arrival alone. But I think this is simply one of the film's many plot holes.
 

---

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Well -- but in the same way that Kirk was insulated from the time line's change in Guardian of Forever, and in the same way that the E-E was insulated by being in the Borg sphere's wake, Spock could have been insulated from his proximity to the black hole.

HOWEVER.

Think on what you're saying -- if the Primeverse is nullified, where did Nero come from? The only explanation is that his arrival in the past created an alternate time line.

You reference various Trek episodes and films to demonstrate your point: I will reference two -- "Mirror Mirror", where a similar but different universe exists alongside the "Prime" universe, and TNG's Parallels, where Worf is shifted back and forth between what turn out to be TENS OF THOUSANDS of similar, but different, parallel realities.

The simply fact is that Trek allows for alternate realities. For whatever reason, you are refusing to accept this. I don't understand.
 

---

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
Universe /= timeline
 

---

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Let me rephrase:

"Think on what you're saying -- if the Primeverse is nullified, where did Nero come from? The only explanation is that his arrival in the past created an alternate reality."
 

---

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
OK this is boring me now. Guardian 2000, Orci etc. have stated that the TOS/TNG/DS9/Voy timeline/universe still exists. End. Of. Story.
 

---

Posted by Ventriloquists Got Shot (Member # 239) on :
 
Heaven Forbid ye olde greate nutpain Andrew gets bored! Rain down from upon high the distate ye have with words, as opposed to the much easier, and far less of an annoyance; silence.

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure I'm 100% in agreement with Guardian 2000, though barring any new fiction from the "Prime" universe other than novels, comics and the upcoming STO, it's looking likely, that barring any precedent, time travel in this particular movie has "split" the universes, and it's going to follow from that.

Though, I'd just as soon relegate a destroyed Romulus to the universe that the Spock Prime character is from, and not the "Roddenberry Universe."
 

---

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Personally, I don't understand the big push against Spock Prime being "our" Spock. I mean, let's be blunt here -- Trek plays around with time so much, that, shit, DS9 didn't even end in the same universe it started (remember that shifting episode where O'Brien switched universes to alert his alter-ego-self to avoid having the station blown up?)
 

---

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
[EDIT: I had a much longer post typed up and it somehow got lost so I will leave just the statement below for now and try to retype my extended thoughts later.]

I understand what G2k is saying, but as I said it is (a) not what the writers/producers/director intended, and more importantly, (b) not dramatically viable within the context of the film.
 

---

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
Let me rephrase:

"Think on what you're saying -- if the Primeverse is nullified, where did Nero come from?

---

quote:

---

The only explanation is that his arrival in the past created an alternate reality."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
From where do parallel universes originate?

---

quote:

---

Time travel has never been known to create them previously in Trek, so far as I know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
[EDIT: I had a much longer post typed up and it somehow got lost so I will leave just the statement below for now and try to retype my extended thoughts later.]

---

quote:

---

I understand what G2k is saying, but as I said it is (a) not what the writers/producers/director intended, and more importantly, (b) not dramatically viable within the context of the film.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
Universe /= timeline

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
Time travel doesn't create them. "Time travel" in the sense of moving from point A to point B along a linear time continuum independent of space is impossible. Space and time are the same thing. What you're doing when you time travel is crossing over into another universe, an alternate reality running parallel to the one you started in. You didn't create it; it already existed. And the one you left from is not destroyed; it persists, but from your point of view, your reality has changed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
Universe /= timeline

---

Incorrect. Universe = timeline. Space = time. See above.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:
there would be no point in all these efforts to change the past that occur in Trek, because they would have no meaning for those not involved.

---

quote:

---

To borrow a phrase (no offense), the idea is not dramatically viable within the context of dozens of hours of Trek. ST4, FC, "Visionary", et al. all become meaningless, selfish diversions for the time travelers.

---

Or innovative and inspiring human efforts to mold one's own destiny and improve one's circumstances. I think, basically, that's what Gene always wanted Star Trek to be about. That's give or take a tragedy/horror story here and there, of course, to keep things interesting.
 

---

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
You just sort of went off the reservation, there.

We're not talking about existential angst or any other hippie stuff. Why would Starfleet send Kirk and the Enterprise on a fact-finding assignment to Earth's past knowing they could never get the returned answer? Why would Kirk and Spock leave Uhura and the others on the Guardian's planet, knowing that he would never see them again no matter what? Why would O'Brien choose to die knowing that his Keiko could not be saved? Why would Picard think he was repairing a damaged timeline? Why would Kirk go get whales unless he thought he was going to re-appear in a universe wherein Earth was also being threatened by the whale ship, and that it was his? Why would the Temporal Cold War exist if the bystanders were, by definition, impervious to timeline changes? Why would Sarpeidon's population go to past times that sucked instead of other universes where the sun wasn't gonna blow? Why did Alexander Rozhenko go back to shoot his younger self to save his father knowing that his father could not be saved? Why would Annorax spend 200 years trying to restore something that wasn't even his?

Whether or not time travel is really possible and what it would mean, what you're arguing against right now is the very narrative of Trek. Our crews have shown how to use one's wits and courage and heart to change the world (e.g. Edith Keeler), and with time travel they've shown what might happen if good men do nothing, or the wrong thing. To take that away from Trek . . . sorry, I can't go there.
 

---

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
 
What the characters know and what we know are not necessarily the same thing. There's lots of science fiction based on what we now know to be outdated/incorrect science, but it's no less enjoyable. You have to remember that it's fiction; not reality.

If the characters believe they are changing the future or past, but in fact they are moving between quantum planes, what difference does it ultimately make? The show is about the characters, not the nitty gritty details of quantum mechanics. It's just semantics, just a more accurate way of describing what happens.

Returning to my earlier analogy, the behavior of the Sun and the Earth did not change between the time when humans believed it to orbit the Earth and when they realized that the Earth rather orbited it. It's only our perspective and our way of describing it, our interpretation of its meaning, that changed.

Like you said, our observations are not wrong, but our conclusions may be.
 

---

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
So let's see. Vulcan's gone, with most Vulcans. Several hundred fleet officers and six ships. That alters the gene pool significantly. Saavik, Valeris and Tuvok may not be born. Valeris means the events of Trek 6 would likely work out totally differently. The Vulcan bits of TMP, TSFS and TVH don't necessarily change except in location. Sybok may have been exiled already, meaning he may still be out there.

47 Klingon ships. In a fleet that big, it's very possible that any Klingon officers we're familiar with were lost. That could conceivably completely alter the Klingon conflict in Trek 3, leaving the Enterprise intact but changing little else. The Romulan empire is left undamaged, while the Klingons have suffered a severe blow, and Starfleet is probably going to be busy. Major shift in the balance of power there.
 

---

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Of course, since everyone seemed to know Nero was a Romulan, the Klingons might go to war with Romulus, assuming him to have been a Romulan agent of some sort.
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Of course, if the Romulans learn about Nero and his motivations, they might wipe out the remaining Vulcans out of spite (as they'll never get the Red Lipstick to save their sun now) and they might be desperate enough to launch a full-scale invasion of the Klingon Empire- so they'll be both safe from their enemies and that whole "supernova' thing.

Heck, events might play out wherein the Romulans and Federation get chummy instead of the Klingons/Federation....

Though there seems to be some treaty between the Romulans and Klingons- the simulation called the KLingons ships "Klingon Warbirds".

My guess is that this is NOT a new timeline but rather Spock and Nero got dumped into an alternate uiniverse where there are already subtle changes from the Primeline- this would explain why there's no older brother for Kirk and why I think Spock's mom is so damn hot.

Also, consider that we've seen a ship get sent to a alternate universe and sent back in time- Mirror Darkly explained how universes move at diffrent temporal rates.
 

---

Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 
You know I could accept that it was alternate universe all along from the beginning. I mean that Deus Ex Matter seems capable of doing all sorts of stuff, so why not add "traveling to another universe's past" to the list.

Though I wonder if all the black holes created by the red matter sends stuff through time and space. Did the Hobus Star matter also travel through time? Did Vulcan Prime get bombarded by pieces of Alternate Vulcan? Is the debris of the Narada gonna end up somewhere?

Edit: Spock's mom is not as hot as Kirk's mom.
 

---

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mars Needs Women:
Though I wonder if all the black holes created by the red matter sends stuff through time and space. Did the Hobus Star matter also travel through time? Did Vulcan Prime get bombarded by pieces of Alternate Vulcan? Is the debris of the Narada gonna end up somewhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Dumbest. Explanation. Ever.

---

Yeah, I don't buy that either.

But, that's probably the assumption that Kirk was going with. After all, the Narada survived one trip through a black hole. Kirk had no reason to think it wouldn't survive another.
 

---

Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
 
Except that Narada was pulled into the first black hole...while the second one formed inside her. If I remember correctly, the red matter, all of the red matter, blew up inside the ship. So, I think the ship would have been torn apart by the forces involved. But, I see your point. Kirk didn't know what was going to happen, so blowing it to kingdom come was probably a safe bet. Anyway...I kinda liked seeing the big E firing all of her weapons at the sinking ship. It was cool...
 

---

Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 
Yeah it didn't seem like the ship could survive a black hole forming inside of it, though who knows, some of that tech might have survived and ended up in the wrong hands. I mean what if it appeared near a Xindi colony in the 22nd century, they might have been like, "Screw the mini-Death Star probe, we're gonna use this instead."

And blowing ship up in space for no reason is always fun. Just think of the Klingons in ST:V blowing up Pioneer 10.
 

---

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
See, this is why time travel is such a bad mechanic to use in crafting a story. Since every single subatomic possibility is played out in an ever-expanding fractal twenty-something-dimensional multiverse.

If some lip service could be paid to a technological way to isolate oneself or one's ship from one's home continuum, and thus travel back, one could theoretically alter one's home continuum -- but never to the point of creating paradoxes. Paradoxes are, by definition, impossible. It's not a logic or engineering puzzle to be solved, the universe is simply not so arranged as to allow them to occur.

Sliders understood the lack of drama inherent in the multiverse model. Any space/time-jumping would land you someplace where you could meddle willy-nilly without affecting your home continuum. No drama. So they placed the drama of the time travel in not being able to get back home.

Time travel should not have been used in this new film, but the producers wanted to have a free rein to fiddle with events that unspool from here, without being bound to the established canon. Now, anyone could die in the next movie. The Enterprise could be blowed up, no problem. They wanted the audience, no matter how well they might know Trek lore, to not know what's going to happen next, or who lives and who dies.

I also don't like the idea that Nero and Spock-Prime are from what we're used to thinking of as our Trek universe. But I don't know how far back we'd have to go to find the "real" Trek universe, there's been so much mucking about with causality.

In case I didn't get it across clearly the first time, I really hate sloppy use of time travel, and that's what I call "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", "Assignment: Earth", "City on the Edge of Forever", and so forth. I try to ignore all the "fixing the timeline" episodes in the larger canon, and just enjoy them as isolated, fun storytelling whimsies. In that sense, I may be able to blame "Yesterday's Enterprise". That's the first episode I can think of where characters going back and staying back had an ongoing impact on the present (Sela).

Or, on a purely æsthetic basis, ignore the TNG era movies altogether. Let the Enterprise-D survive to become the dreadnought in "All Good Things...", avoid the step backwards that is the Enterprise-E, skip the weak Borg Queen stuff, bozing Cochrane, Son'a, joystick, Reman, dune buggy, clone bullcrap that weve been subjected to since the series went off the air.

Deep Space Nine can be allowed to stay.

And this is not getting anywhere near the movie-making problems I had with this film (writing, music, production design, etc.), or the fact that I thought the early days were covered much better in the novels Final Frontier, Best Destiny, and The Kobayashi Maru...

--Jonah
 

---

Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
 
I saw the movie (finally) Friday night. It's a good movie. Great special effects. A lot of fans no doubt will enjoy it (and have). However, since I practically live, eat and breathe Star Trek I can't wholeheartedly agree. I found it to be a very, very good parody of Star Trek. A close imitation but not the original.

I don't mind the modern music. I don't mind the new approach to filmography or story telling. I just regret/resent the contradictions to established continuity. I'm a canonista so the movie rubs me a little wrong.

And, with the success of this movie, I'm sad but sure to say that the original Trek (and all the subsequent spin-offs) is now dead. Oh, sure, the movie explained that we're in an alternate timeline now but from a production standpoint I doubt we'll see any new material set in the Prime Timeline. It'd be too confusing and just muddy the market.

OK, let's start with the moment the movie began.

1. Ship design - like nothing we've ever seen in Trek. These are not the established Starfleet designed vessels. Both external and internal.
2. Kirk's OLDER brother. George Samuel Kirk. Only Jim Kirk called him "Sam." (TOS "What are Little Girls Made of?")
3. Romulans. As evident by crew reactions no one was surprised at what the Romulans on Nero's ship looked like. As opposed to TOS "Balance of Terror" which indicated no one knew what Romulans looked like at that time.
4. Star Dates - Totally different than established continuity.
5. Chekov/ages of the rest of the crew - Granted we don't meet Chekov until after Nero's ship changes the timeline but this still can only fit here. According to the original timeline Chekov was much, much younger than Kirk (over 10 years). This movie establishes all of the Trek crew are well within 10 years of each other (with the exception of McCoy).
6. Neutral Z0ne - I only saw the movie once so I can't remember exactly. Both Klingon and Romulan Neutral Zones are mentioned and something struck me odd. The Klingon Neutral Z0ne isn't established in TOS until after "Errand of Mercy" as part of the Organian Peace Treaty (OK, this is not explicitly stated but the Klingon Neutral Z0ne is not mentioned until after this episode).

Granted, these don't seem like major nits.

All these are events that happened at the start before Nero's ship had a chance to change history.

Continuity errors AFTER Nero's ship appears (but not necessarily a result of his appearance):

1. Enterprise built in Iowa instead of San Francisco (TOS bridge dedication plaque in every episode)
2. Kirk meeting Pike and serving under him. (Menagerie establishes that Kirk only had a passing knowledge of Pike, meeting him briefly).
3. Spock's time of service under Pike. (Menagerie states Spock served under Pike for 11 years).
4. Spock/Uhura love relationship.
5. Spock's more positive relationship with his father.
6. Design of the Enterprise. Both internally and externally. Not only looks different but is also significantly larger.


Continuity/Universe changes directly as a result of Nero's actions:

1. Vulcan's destruction/death of Spock's mother (changes events in TOS "Journey to Bable", "Amok Time", "Immunity Syndrome", Star Trek III, Star Trek IV, TNG's "Sarek" and other episodes where they go to Vulcan).
2. Talos IV - Apparently Pike never visits Talos IV (TOS "Cage" and "Menagerie")
3. It's possible Kirk never lives for a while on Tarsus IV and suffers under Kodos the Executioner. (TOS "Conscience of the King")

This blog has an extensive study of the changes: http://popculturezoo.com/archives/2529

Some of the minor changes, cosmetic changes I can live with. It's understandable. The wholesale changes to the Enterprise, while visually stunning, aren't for me (the engineering section is just ridiculous!). It was just too many little changes contradicting too much of my beloved Star Trek that left just a slightly bad taste in my mouth.
 

---

Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
+1
 

---

Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
Something I noticed with Chekov...I was watching "Who Mourns for Adonais?" today, in which he tells Kirk he is 22 years old. Given the episode is set in 2267, this implies that for whatever reason this "new" Chekov (who was 17 in 2258) was born four-years earlier than his primeverse counterpart. Not really all that significant in the grand scheme of things, but does make one wonder what has changed in his parent's life.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
The PW has seen this movie (a boot leg, of course).

The PW enjoyed this movie, greatly. even the NuEnt is functional and enjoyable.

only thing i bitched about is how open the engineering sections seemed. the ugly, smelly, loud NOT fucking crystal clean, that was cool and more seeming possible. it just seemed so open. like a few good holes in the hull should kill the crew sorta view. there wasnt a sence of hull compartmentalization (you didnt get that feel in TOS either but TWOK, yeah, you did)

if they had did what they did visually with more compression of walls... then dead on.

still it was eye candy and i enjoyed it, bithcing and all (pass the popcorn)

...Did they ever say what class of type of ship Kelvin was (honest to god Saladin nod to JF?

and Nero and crew... they were civilians, right? (why theire ship looks so shitty, because its a comerical mining vessel and not Romulan miliary?

it sorta explains why Nero is so flipant to Pike (Hello, Christopher)...

*waves* Me is back (yes! you're fucked! )
 

---

Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
 
You were gone?
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
A commercial mining vessel that can destroy entire fleets in minutes.

yeah.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
It's called a plot hole, Jason. It happens.


 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Um....you do know we obsess about things like that here, dont you?

Recall all the venom towards Nemesis about how the Remans could not have possibly built the Scimitar in secret....that was a plot hole.

This is just bad writing.

There. I said it.
The movie is Trek dumbed-down for a broader audience.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
so..... when do we start seeing books for Nutrek?

and has the disertations from STO even mention the lack of Romulus/Remus now?

or did they even bother to tell them sods so now their game might not even be 'canon' since in postNem times, the romulans are the endangered species...

right?
 

---

Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness:
and has the disertations from STO even mention the lack of Romulus/Remus now?

or did they even bother to tell them sods so now their game might not even be 'canon' since in postNem times, the romulans are the endangered species...

right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
You have to take into account that the Narada was only up against 150-year-old ships and defenses in the film. As G2k said, there's no way of knowing how it would fare against its contemporaries.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes:
the Narada was outfitted with Tal Shiar's reverse engineered Borg technology. Consider the comic non-canon or canon, but its the closest to the official explanation you'll get.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:

Why the hell would a pissed-off space trucker be granted access to some of the highest technology the quadrant has to offer?

This is like Cletus watching Podunk, MS gettin' all blowed up (losing Fred in the attack) and suddenly the frakking CIA is putting top-secret Skunk Works DARPA shit all over his 18 wheeler.

Seriously, is that the best the comics guys could come up with?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes:
the Narada was outfitted with Tal Shiar's reverse engineered Borg technology. Consider the comic non-canon or canon, but its the closest to the official explanation you'll get.

---

quote:

---

As I said, needing two entire comic book limited series to fill plot holes is just bad writing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
I too think it is representative of bad writing. I am so tired of movies that seem compelling and exciting while you're sitting in the theater and then unravel to threads once you get home and think about them. It's especially annoying when you consider that the writers have a lot more time before release to reason these things out and it's their job, yet this is what we get.

---

*giggles* Yet, do all peoples do their job well? I mean why do you need the cops if everyone acts Lawful Good?

maybe, just maybe... the DVD, without edits will be better (less plot holes at least)...
 

---

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Jason:

quote:

---

Yeah it sounds picky but really, this movie is a lot like watching TWOK with no Space Seed to back it up- it's certainly possible but no where near as gratifying-

---

Funny coincedence, Jase. I haven't screened a Trek movie in years, but just two weeks ago I did a theme night with pals: Space Seed remastered, followed by Twok-SE.

And after that, I went on a James/ Horner/ Binge.
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Good choices- the remastered version in particular blends the TOS ep with TWOK....I just wish they could have somehow edited Chekov in there...

Pensive, the DVD will have several deleted scenes but none will be part of the movie- they'll be seperate- no doubt to shill another "special edition" release some day.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
Here's a thought:

Now that it's pretty much a given that the future is totally screwed up for Spock-Prime, will he use his experiances and prior know of events possibly upcoming to affect them? For example, The Botany Bay, the doom's day machine, the Talosians, etc. besides offering ideas to improve tech, Spock-Prime could end up saving thousands, perhaps millions of lives simply by imforming them of the upcoming dangers (even the whale probe would have to be dealt with)

thoughts?
 

---

Posted by Sean (Member # 2010) on :
 
Well, since so many things, even minute things, have been altered in this new timelne, there's no telling if those events will play out as they did, if at all. I'd figure he'd want to stay incognito anyhow...perhaps retire? I mean...the guy is 154 years old...
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Stuff like the Whale Probe, V'Ger and Planetkiller should all still happen like clockwork.

In fact, with possibly no Decker/Ilea in play (or alive but in diffrent careers dur to timeline changes) they might well need another pair of chumps.

I mean, if Commodore Decker does not die fighting the PK, then William decker might not even join starfleet and so wont be there to merge with V'Ger...

I really think Spock would spend the rest of his life trying to steer the federation away from serious clusterfucks caused by the timeline alteration.
 

---

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
I keep thinking that Spock would try to return to his own timeline, but how could he? He's in a tangent universe created by events in a future that now cannot come to pass (or at least his parts won't, presumably that star will still go nova). But if anybody could get over a hurdle like that, it's Spock.
 

---

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
There's always the chance of someone from the other timeline trying to come and look for him instead, but I could see a lot of nice scenarios coming from Spock staying.
Also, he'd know in advance of the Borg and the bajoran wormhole.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
but would he say anything? For all we know, Q might tell him not to.

As for him returning to his timeline, again that requires him to cheat. The Guardian of Forever could very easily bring him back to his future... assuming something didn't happen to it...

so many possiblities, that my mind is burning...
 

---

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Guardian 2000:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wes:
the Narada was outfitted with Tal Shiar's reverse engineered Borg technology. Consider the comic non-canon or canon, but its the closest to the official explanation you'll get.

---

Oh dear lord.

Why the hell would a pissed-off space trucker be granted access to some of the highest technology the quadrant has to offer?

This is like Cletus watching Podunk, MS gettin' all blowed up (losing Fred in the attack) and suddenly the frakking CIA is putting top-secret Skunk Works DARPA shit all over his 18 wheeler.

Seriously, is that the best the comics guys could come up with?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lee:
I keep thinking that Spock would try to return to his own timeline, but how could he? He's in a tangent universe created by events in a future that now cannot come to pass (or at least his parts won't, presumably that star will still go nova). But if anybody could get over a hurdle like that, it's Spock.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nim:
Think so, yes. Which would be awesome.
Kirk and Kirk could have a tug-of-war over a whale pup, the tugging sounding like creaking balloons, while Spock and Spock try to outsmart eachother with vulcan Stooges-slaps and pinches. *cue "Yakety Sax"*

---

Oh please. That's just another silly 'Bring Back Kirk' fan film
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
Oh wow. He does comedy, too...

Roflcopter!
 

---

Posted by danova (Member # 2183) on :
 
I did postulate before I saw the movie that some of the differences (ie ship and costume designs) that appeared to have been in place prior to Nero's arrival would be a result of some or all of the Trek-Prime being negated or altered.
 

---

Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by danova:
I did postulate before I saw the movie that some of the differences (ie ship and costume designs) that appeared to have been in place prior to Nero's arrival would be a result of some or all of the Trek-Prime being negated or altered.

---

First: Hello, there (please don't be a asshat website spammer. please, don't be a spammer)

Second: No shit, asshat (dun dun dun!)


Third: Welcome to SciFi hell. how may we serve you?

*giggles* Seriously, welcome. To say things are different because of the loss the Kelvin, is a understatement. What interests me what they (paramount) plans to do with this, in terms of what is cannon, what direct the books go, etc. will they release a line of JJ-trek books?

I dunno. considering how many people they fired from the editorial staff of the main book producer... who knows.

[hin]asshat!
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Dont mind Pensive, he's kind of our resident jackass as a hobby.
I'm the professional full-time jackass and I'll be your case worker for the duration of your stay (get the thorazine, someone- he's going to make a break for it).

There should be no changes to the Primeline- obviously there are many variations to the new movie's universe from what we are accumstomed to.

The loss of editorial staff at Pocket is an ill omen of things in the Trek expanded universe to say the least- bad enough there is no one to reign in that idiot Peter David on his slapstick New Frontier books.

It could also be the death-knell for another SOTL coffee table book dealie.
 

---

Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:


The loss of editorial staff at Pocket is an ill omen of things in the Trek expanded universe to say the least- bad enough there is no one to reign in that idiot Peter David on his slapstick New Frontier books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mars Needs Women:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:


The loss of editorial staff at Pocket is an ill omen of things in the Trek expanded universe to say the least- bad enough there is no one to reign in that idiot Peter David on his slapstick New Frontier books.

---

My God...

Incidentally, there are like four books coming out which will deal with the aftermath of STXI. Judging by the titles, most of them seem to deal with the Vulcans finding a new home.

---

*begins Whipping Mars* Links, bitch! links!

(or read: has trekmovie commented on this yet, since i usually learn about upcoming books from there)
 

---

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
 
See, there's this wonderful thing called "Google"...
 

---

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Try "Google" with the safe search on- less...er...distractions.
 

---