So, any takers? This is your big chance!
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
The Okuda date of 2218 was based on Spock's comment (in 'The Undiscovered Country')of the fact that, in 2293, there had been 'over 70 years' of hostilities between the two powers. He took 70 years previous (2223) and subtracted a few more years for randomness sake. I dont believe there is any evidence in 'First Contact' (TNG) that stated it was earlier.. Picard said that Klingon first contact had gone disastrously and thats why they 'stake out' new cultures rather than walk up and introduce themselves. This doesnt place it before the birth of the Federation, for even after the 2160s there are numerous examples of cultures being contacted carelessly (the Iotians by the Horizon, the Betans by the Archon, etc...)
If the fact that Picard had pointed out the Klingon first contact as the one that made the Federation establish policy towards the Prime Directive, then it most certainly wouldnt have been in 2151, since those other instances occured after it. However, he could just have pointed it out as an example of the worst thing that has ever come out of a first contact, in which case we are all right with continuity:
2151: First Klingon/Human contact.
Sometime 2214-2222 ('over 70 years' before ST:VI): Hostilities begin between the Federation and the Klingons
It just seems odd that we coexisted with the nearby and pissed off Klingons for some 60 odd years before actual war drums sounded and the long on-off hot war/cold war began.
The only reason i typed all this here is i dont believe that 'First Contact' presupposes such an early date as you wrote (unless theres some dialogue i overlooked) Unfortunately I dont have the episode or the chronology here so ill wait to seewho knows for sure what that episode said.
PS.. I like Enterprise, but I do feel the the long-time Star Trek fan is getting the ass end of the stick here, but i will save that for another thread
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
The Okuda date of 2218 was based on Spock's comment (in 'The Undiscovered Country')of the fact that, in 2293, there had been 'over 70 years' of hostilities between the two powers. He took 70 years previous (2223) and subtracted a few more years for randomness sake.
No, he took "Day of the Dove" (TOS)'s similar statement of fifty years of hostility, and subtracted from 2268, when the episode was set... but The Undiscovered Country supports that rather well. People routinely round off dates above twenty or thirty years.
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
I dont believe there is any evidence in 'First Contact' (TNG) that stated it was earlier..
The episode had dialogue stating, without ambiguity, that first contact was "centuries ago." I don't think there's any need to respond to the most of the rest of your post, since it's based on that erroneous assumption.
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
PS.. I like Enterprise, but I do feel the the long-time Star Trek fan is getting the ass end of the stick here, but i will save that for another thread
Depends on your definition of long-time fan, and if "long-time" equals "devoted." I've watched Star Trek regularly since 1987, when I was a mere lad of 7 years old. Since that time, I have seen every episode of the original series and The Next Generation at least twice, every episode of Deep Space Nine at least once, and most of Voyager. The original series has always been my favorite, by far, even if I was born 11 years after it ended. While my 14 years of fandhood doesn't compare to some's 35, I'll put my dedication to the original, and to the Star Trek mythos at large, up against anyone's. My point: I like Enterprise. I like the premise, and I like the only episode we've seen. But I freely admit that this is pure opinion.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
God, you're in a bad mood today.
I knew you were being a bit pissed so i tried to block that out as well as i could to not include non-continuity stuff or assumptions i had made. I think that centuries ago could refer to either date, since i would refer to lots of stuff in the 1700s OR 1800s as centuries ago...
Dont treat me like shit for trying to figure this out, just because a lot of people dont like your new favorite show.
Or your real intention was for your thread to go completely unanswered, so you could say..'see i was right, the new show is perfect' or just to tear apart anyone who answered it on the grounds they were ballsy enough to try and answer your challenge.
I like Enterprise too... my reasons for unhappiness stem from production decisions and story considerations and not necessarily continuity.. thats why i said i would save that for another thread, since its not the topic at hand.
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
CaptainMike, you might want to reconsider who's in the "pissy mood" today. You made an error in your first post; Ryan corrected the mistake and explained what the rationale really was. Chill, dude.
$$$ Spoilers Below for "Broken Bow" and "Civilization" $$$
Going to the topic at hand, the only continuity glitch that I can point out is the use of what appears to be an LCARS-style panel at the end of "Broken Bow." From Star Trek III and IV, we know that Klingons (at least on their Birds of Prey) used physical computer interfaces similar to the Enterprises on TOS and ENT. However, to be fair, we don't know if that panel in "Broken Bow" acted in an LCARS-manner or was simply a touchscreen interface.
In "Civilization," looks like we may have a goof on the origins of the Prime Directive. Connor Trinneer said that they are investigating the presence of high-level tech on a low tech-level world. Earth apparently has a rule similar to the Prime Directive. However, TOS' "A Piece of the Action" suggests that the Prime Directive was not adopted until some point after the Horizon's encounter at Iota Sigma in the late 2100s.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I didnt make a mistake.. we both had a different source for a piece of information.. 50 years before 2268 or 70+ years before 2293.. the matter of 'centuries ago' is a deliberately vague statement, which i wasnt even aware of.. i laid out the facts i knew, made some theories and left an open end in case someone knew a fact i didnt. .. then he pulls out his 'ive been a fan a long time too and i like this show' bit again when i had already acknowledged that my problem with the show is purely opinion.. the name of the thread is 'Continuity' and hes still trying to try my opinion on the subject when i am simply trying to discuss the dates to see what is really going on with it
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I suggest you calm down and realize that we are all friends here.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Yeah.. the normal kids would beat up the whole lot of us.. we need to stick together
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMike:
Yeah.. the normal kids would beat up the whole lot of us.. we need to stick together
Haha, right on!
For what it's worth, I truly apologize if you thought I was being pissy: I wasn't. Honestly, I was responding to what you said, nothing more, and nothing less. Your post gave no indication that you knew of the "centuries ago" line at all; I assumed you didn't. I also didn't consider the possibility that people would use "centuries" to refer to periods of time less than 200 years. To tell you the truth, I was in a great mood until I read your reply to my reply to your reply. So again, sorry if it came across wrong.
As to the purpose of the thread, it's simple: if somebody makes the assertion that Enterprise violates continuity, the onus of proof is on them to support that assertion. I have yet to see anyone do so. There are plenty of things about Enterprise that I don't like, from the theme song to that decon scene to the overuse of "plasma" technology to Kronos being four days away... but none of that is particularly inconsistent, it's just personal preference. I don't have any intention of "tearing apart" anyone unless the definition of "tearing apart" includes "responding." 
And I certainly won't claim that the "new show is perfect," because it's not.
So, really, this thread was supposed to be simple, clean, and relatively boring... no hard feelings here. Hopefully sombody with continuity issues will share them.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The canon facts (as I understand them) about the Klingon first contact are thus:
"Day of the Dove" and ST6 both suggest that the TOS-era hostilities w/ the Klingons started somewhere in the vicinity of 2220. No mention or hint of first contact in either case.
"First Contact" stated explicitly that Klingon first contact was "centuries" prior to 2367. That places it at 2167 or earlier. It could have been a loose reference to something slightly less than 200 years, but 150 is stretching it.
Anyway... The only real contradiction I see so far is the phasers. And, regardless of what they call them (as if "phase pistol" doesn't sound enough like "phaser" already), I get the definite impression that the writers/producers are simply thinking of them as phasers. But, it will remain to be seen whether this is true or not.
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
I thought the plasma pistols were much cooler anyway.
quote:
In "Civilization," looks like we may have a goof on the origins of the Prime Directive. Connor Trinneer said that they are investigating the presence of high-level tech on a low tech-level world. Earth apparently has a rule similar to the Prime Directive. However, TOS' "A Piece of the Action" suggests that the Prime Directive was not adopted until some point after the Horizon's encounter at Iota Sigma in the late 2100s.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If that's true, it sucks. I thought that one of the show's assets was the fact that they could totally explore the potential problems of blundering around in the affairs of lesser tech races. You could have some crew members (or even starfleet officials) who totally believe in helping out less technically advanced races. I think that having any form of Prime Directive in Enterprise is a major mistake, and a waste.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
So what sort of directive is there in "Civilization"? From that single sentence, I couldn't glean enough evidence for any directives. The ship is going in to investigate something, which is its mission. The investigation will be performed on a low-tech world, which would be a big no-no from the viewpoint of the later Prime Directive. High tech is being invenstigated, suggesting the heroes aren't afraid of finding out about things more advanced than themselves. Sounds good to me so far...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Scrap that, there *is* a "noninterference rule" reference in the original interview.
Sigh. Well, perhaps the rule is abandoned before the Horizon visits Sigma Iotia.
Or then Sigma Iotia is not a low-tech world, so there is no reason not to interfere. However, due to the influence of the book, the Iotians abandon their hovermobiles and floating cities and move to gas-churning cars and brick buildings.
TNG-level PD would still prohibit Starfleet from interfering, if it could be predicted that the interference would so badly derail this high-tech world. But I have a hard time believing that TOS PD would have been a concern. It is in fact "A Piece of the Action" that makes no sense here...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Perhaps it was a rule that the Vulcans imposed that was temporarily abandoned because the humans didn't like it.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
It's pretty obvious the Vulcans are the ones with the "non-interfearance" rule, given that they're very hands-off with humans so far. Just as Earth contributes Starfleet to the Federation, the Vulcans contribute an early form of the PRime Directive.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Well.. actually the Vulcans rule isnt 'non-interference' its 'running interference'
While the Federation would steer clear and surreptitiously observe a precontact planet (such as Malcor) and then make overtures to help them when they discover warp,
the Vulcans are: steering clear of earth, observe us achieve warp, and then diplomatically blockade our star system and prevent us from using the technology we discovered.
While the Federation probably wouldnt have let the Malcorians take their first warp jaunt into the Neutral Zone, they also might invite them to attend the Council meetings and show them our infrastructure, but the Vulcans enforce isolationism among all the inferior cultures they meet rather then encourage the freedom of movement and communication that would make an interstellar Federation possible.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:
prevent us from using the technology we discovered.
When did they do this? If this was the case, they'd've blown Enterprise out of the sky and the series would be over.
What they're doing is not providing scientific knowledge to Earth. That's why Archer's pissed (as best as I can tell): his dad was on the verge of a major breakthrough in warp theory, and the Vulcans knew where he was having trouble (but didn't tell him).
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Theres the matter of not letting us expedite diplomacy with other races besides them, and trying to interfere in the affairs of our planet (if we find an alien on our world, the Vulcans ask us to give him to them?)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yes, they asked. They didn't send in shock troops when Earth said "hell no!" As for the "modern" Prime Directive as seen in TOS/TNG etc., I do believe (I could be wrong) that part of Starfleet's duty is to act in the same way the Vulcans are -- shielding an emerging society from other races who might do it harm. Now, certainly, perhaps the Vulcans are taking on this role longer then Starfleet would, but they're hardly sending in an occupation force. They're more like a cautious parent nervous about sending their child to school.
quote:
Theres the matter of not letting us expedite diplomacy with other races besides them,
I missed this. When did this happen?
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
::points out that the Klingons bled human blood in 'Broken Bow'::
::neglects to mention how many times this occurred in TNG, DS9, and VOY::
[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Stingray ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Erm...Klingon blood has been visually identical to human stuff in every instance but one. What about it?
As for the Vulcans vs. the Warp 5 Complex, why is everyone assuming that Archer's suspicion is correct? It's not like we've been given anything resembling proof that the Vulcans held back technology. Their efforts would seem to be primarily diplomatic in focus.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
On the subject of Klingon blood: The only reason why it was pink in STVI was so the movie could have a PG rating instead of an R. TPTB had no intention of making the blood pink before this, and apparently had no intention of keeping it that way after.
On the subject of Enterprise continuity: What many people don't seem to understand is that even with the premiere episode, events have changed enough from the normal timeline to make a case that this series is now on an alternate timeline, and that continuity really doesn't matter anymore. Observe: (Warning-Spoilers Ahead)
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Normal ST timeline: No temporal cold war. The Suliban are a third-rate backwater civilization that no one's ever heard of and no one ever will. That's why they are never mentioned in TOS, movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, etc. There is no reason for Klaang to even be near Earth, since there is no Suliban plot to destabilize the Empire. As such, whenever the true Klingon first contact is supposed to be, that's when it goes horribly wrong.
Revised ENT timeline: Because of Future Guy, the Suliban are much more advanced, thereby causing the "first contact" events we see in Broken Bow, which is subsequently different than the picture Picard layed out in TNG. I don't know about anyone else, but this new first contact looked pretty successful to me. This now possibly changes the entire premise of Star Trek, which is what B&B were presumably trying to do.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Erm... The Suliban are an everyday, "backwater" race. It's just a group of them who have been genetically altered to fight this war. For all we know, the main body of the Suliban race have no idea what's going on, and end up having nothing to do w/ anything, and that's why they're never mentioned again.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:
The Suliban are a third-rate backwater civilization that no one's ever heard of and no one ever will. That's why they are never mentioned in TOS, movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, etc.
So, the Organians are a third-rate backwater civilization, and that's why we only saw them on TOS?
And since Enterprise is chronologically the first series, don't you mean the ENT time line is correct, and the TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY time line is altered?
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I'll not get into the mud hole with the rest at this time... at the moment my original statement was this:
quote:
If they think that small tips of the hat will make me happy when they've already landed punches they are mistaken.
The small tips of the hat included all those little subtile things such as the swoosh of the door. The landed punches included the design of the ship being a ripoff of the Akira-Class, the straddling of terminology [Phase Pistol, Phaser], etc etc etc. We disagree on many things...
For the record, I liked "Broken Bow" as a TV show, but as Star Trek I'm highly POed.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
*rolls eyes and rests head in arms*
Be that way.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
The_Tom, you look like a man who could use a drink. Name your poison and I'll see about whipping it up for ya.
