posted
This thread is the result of my growing frustration with people who make the claim that Enterprise violates later continuity but make no attempt at elaboration. What I am asking for here is for critics to post any perceived objective continuity violations. If none are provided, then I submit that they will have to start saying "Enterprise violates my preconceived version of the 22nd century" if they want to be intellectually honest, rather than the usual, unsupported, "Enterprise destroys/spits on/shits on/otherwise violates continuity."
In case anyone isn't quite sure about that objective part, let me elaborate. An objective criticism is one that all parties, given the same evidence, can agree on. Saying that Enterprise's appearance violates continuity is not objective unless there are specific elements which can not exist in the 2150s; for example, phasers. One can say that Enterprise doesn't feel like it fits in the 2150s, but this is subjective opinion. Note: there is nothing wrong with subjective complaints, and there is nothing wrong with dicussing them. Just don't make a claim that Enterprise violates continuity when you mean that it violates your preconception of continuity.
Before we begin, let's look at some possibilities:
Klingon First Contact: Must be prior to 2160s ("First Contact" [TNG]). Enterprise is prior to the 2160s. Anything later, such as Okuda's 2218, is a real violation.
Transporters: Development must be prior to 2209 ("Realm of Fear" [TNG]). Enterprise is prior to 2209. Any complaint is subjective opinion.
Phase-pistols: Semantics or not, they are not phasers, and thus don't contradict "A Matter of Time" (TNG). Any complaint is a matter of opinion.
Lasers in "The Cage" (TOS): Nothing about phase-pistols suggests that they are in any way superior to lasers, aside perhaps for having two settings. No canon, including "The Cage," contradicts an inferred progression from plasma pistol to phase-pistol to laser pistol to phaser pistol.
Cochrane: Cochrane disappeared in 2117 according to "Metamorphosis," but "Broken Bow" shows him alive 32 years before 2151, or in 2119. Strangely, this minor detail is the only claim I can think of that has any objective basis, even if it requires an unnatural precision of dialog. Even the most ardent Enterprise-basher would probably agree that missing one date doesn't destroy continuity, but I grant this one.
So, any takers? This is your big chance!
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
The Okuda date of 2218 was based on Spock's comment (in 'The Undiscovered Country')of the fact that, in 2293, there had been 'over 70 years' of hostilities between the two powers. He took 70 years previous (2223) and subtracted a few more years for randomness sake. I dont believe there is any evidence in 'First Contact' (TNG) that stated it was earlier.. Picard said that Klingon first contact had gone disastrously and thats why they 'stake out' new cultures rather than walk up and introduce themselves. This doesnt place it before the birth of the Federation, for even after the 2160s there are numerous examples of cultures being contacted carelessly (the Iotians by the Horizon, the Betans by the Archon, etc...) If the fact that Picard had pointed out the Klingon first contact as the one that made the Federation establish policy towards the Prime Directive, then it most certainly wouldnt have been in 2151, since those other instances occured after it. However, he could just have pointed it out as an example of the worst thing that has ever come out of a first contact, in which case we are all right with continuity: 2151: First Klingon/Human contact. Sometime 2214-2222 ('over 70 years' before ST:VI): Hostilities begin between the Federation and the Klingons
It just seems odd that we coexisted with the nearby and pissed off Klingons for some 60 odd years before actual war drums sounded and the long on-off hot war/cold war began.
The only reason i typed all this here is i dont believe that 'First Contact' presupposes such an early date as you wrote (unless theres some dialogue i overlooked) Unfortunately I dont have the episode or the chronology here so ill wait to seewho knows for sure what that episode said.
PS.. I like Enterprise, but I do feel the the long-time Star Trek fan is getting the ass end of the stick here, but i will save that for another thread
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quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: The Okuda date of 2218 was based on Spock's comment (in 'The Undiscovered Country')of the fact that, in 2293, there had been 'over 70 years' of hostilities between the two powers. He took 70 years previous (2223) and subtracted a few more years for randomness sake.
No, he took "Day of the Dove" (TOS)'s similar statement of fifty years of hostility, and subtracted from 2268, when the episode was set... but The Undiscovered Country supports that rather well. People routinely round off dates above twenty or thirty years.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: I dont believe there is any evidence in 'First Contact' (TNG) that stated it was earlier..
The episode had dialogue stating, without ambiguity, that first contact was "centuries ago." I don't think there's any need to respond to the most of the rest of your post, since it's based on that erroneous assumption.
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: PS.. I like Enterprise, but I do feel the the long-time Star Trek fan is getting the ass end of the stick here, but i will save that for another thread
Depends on your definition of long-time fan, and if "long-time" equals "devoted." I've watched Star Trek regularly since 1987, when I was a mere lad of 7 years old. Since that time, I have seen every episode of the original series and The Next Generation at least twice, every episode of Deep Space Nine at least once, and most of Voyager. The original series has always been my favorite, by far, even if I was born 11 years after it ended. While my 14 years of fandhood doesn't compare to some's 35, I'll put my dedication to the original, and to the Star Trek mythos at large, up against anyone's. My point: I like Enterprise. I like the premise, and I like the only episode we've seen. But I freely admit that this is pure opinion.
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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posted
God, you're in a bad mood today. I knew you were being a bit pissed so i tried to block that out as well as i could to not include non-continuity stuff or assumptions i had made. I think that centuries ago could refer to either date, since i would refer to lots of stuff in the 1700s OR 1800s as centuries ago...
Dont treat me like shit for trying to figure this out, just because a lot of people dont like your new favorite show. Or your real intention was for your thread to go completely unanswered, so you could say..'see i was right, the new show is perfect' or just to tear apart anyone who answered it on the grounds they were ballsy enough to try and answer your challenge.
I like Enterprise too... my reasons for unhappiness stem from production decisions and story considerations and not necessarily continuity.. thats why i said i would save that for another thread, since its not the topic at hand.
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
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Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
CaptainMike, you might want to reconsider who's in the "pissy mood" today. You made an error in your first post; Ryan corrected the mistake and explained what the rationale really was. Chill, dude.
$$$ Spoilers Below for "Broken Bow" and "Civilization" $$$
Going to the topic at hand, the only continuity glitch that I can point out is the use of what appears to be an LCARS-style panel at the end of "Broken Bow." From Star Trek III and IV, we know that Klingons (at least on their Birds of Prey) used physical computer interfaces similar to the Enterprises on TOS and ENT. However, to be fair, we don't know if that panel in "Broken Bow" acted in an LCARS-manner or was simply a touchscreen interface.
In "Civilization," looks like we may have a goof on the origins of the Prime Directive. Connor Trinneer said that they are investigating the presence of high-level tech on a low tech-level world. Earth apparently has a rule similar to the Prime Directive. However, TOS' "A Piece of the Action" suggests that the Prime Directive was not adopted until some point after the Horizon's encounter at Iota Sigma in the late 2100s.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
I didnt make a mistake.. we both had a different source for a piece of information.. 50 years before 2268 or 70+ years before 2293.. the matter of 'centuries ago' is a deliberately vague statement, which i wasnt even aware of.. i laid out the facts i knew, made some theories and left an open end in case someone knew a fact i didnt. .. then he pulls out his 'ive been a fan a long time too and i like this show' bit again when i had already acknowledged that my problem with the show is purely opinion.. the name of the thread is 'Continuity' and hes still trying to try my opinion on the subject when i am simply trying to discuss the dates to see what is really going on with it
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quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: Yeah.. the normal kids would beat up the whole lot of us.. we need to stick together
Haha, right on!
For what it's worth, I truly apologize if you thought I was being pissy: I wasn't. Honestly, I was responding to what you said, nothing more, and nothing less. Your post gave no indication that you knew of the "centuries ago" line at all; I assumed you didn't. I also didn't consider the possibility that people would use "centuries" to refer to periods of time less than 200 years. To tell you the truth, I was in a great mood until I read your reply to my reply to your reply. So again, sorry if it came across wrong.
As to the purpose of the thread, it's simple: if somebody makes the assertion that Enterprise violates continuity, the onus of proof is on them to support that assertion. I have yet to see anyone do so. There are plenty of things about Enterprise that I don't like, from the theme song to that decon scene to the overuse of "plasma" technology to Kronos being four days away... but none of that is particularly inconsistent, it's just personal preference. I don't have any intention of "tearing apart" anyone unless the definition of "tearing apart" includes "responding." And I certainly won't claim that the "new show is perfect," because it's not.
So, really, this thread was supposed to be simple, clean, and relatively boring... no hard feelings here. Hopefully sombody with continuity issues will share them.
posted
The canon facts (as I understand them) about the Klingon first contact are thus:
"Day of the Dove" and ST6 both suggest that the TOS-era hostilities w/ the Klingons started somewhere in the vicinity of 2220. No mention or hint of first contact in either case.
"First Contact" stated explicitly that Klingon first contact was "centuries" prior to 2367. That places it at 2167 or earlier. It could have been a loose reference to something slightly less than 200 years, but 150 is stretching it.
Anyway... The only real contradiction I see so far is the phasers. And, regardless of what they call them (as if "phase pistol" doesn't sound enough like "phaser" already), I get the definite impression that the writers/producers are simply thinking of them as phasers. But, it will remain to be seen whether this is true or not.
posted
I thought the plasma pistols were much cooler anyway.
quote:In "Civilization," looks like we may have a goof on the origins of the Prime Directive. Connor Trinneer said that they are investigating the presence of high-level tech on a low tech-level world. Earth apparently has a rule similar to the Prime Directive. However, TOS' "A Piece of the Action" suggests that the Prime Directive was not adopted until some point after the Horizon's encounter at Iota Sigma in the late 2100s.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooo.
If that's true, it sucks. I thought that one of the show's assets was the fact that they could totally explore the potential problems of blundering around in the affairs of lesser tech races. You could have some crew members (or even starfleet officials) who totally believe in helping out less technically advanced races. I think that having any form of Prime Directive in Enterprise is a major mistake, and a waste.
-------------------- "Existence is random. Has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it too long. No meaning save what we choose to impose. This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It?s us. Only us." Rorschach
posted
So what sort of directive is there in "Civilization"? From that single sentence, I couldn't glean enough evidence for any directives. The ship is going in to investigate something, which is its mission. The investigation will be performed on a low-tech world, which would be a big no-no from the viewpoint of the later Prime Directive. High tech is being invenstigated, suggesting the heroes aren't afraid of finding out about things more advanced than themselves. Sounds good to me so far...
posted
Scrap that, there *is* a "noninterference rule" reference in the original interview.
Sigh. Well, perhaps the rule is abandoned before the Horizon visits Sigma Iotia.
Or then Sigma Iotia is not a low-tech world, so there is no reason not to interfere. However, due to the influence of the book, the Iotians abandon their hovermobiles and floating cities and move to gas-churning cars and brick buildings.
TNG-level PD would still prohibit Starfleet from interfering, if it could be predicted that the interference would so badly derail this high-tech world. But I have a hard time believing that TOS PD would have been a concern. It is in fact "A Piece of the Action" that makes no sense here...
posted
Perhaps it was a rule that the Vulcans imposed that was temporarily abandoned because the humans didn't like it.
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It's pretty obvious the Vulcans are the ones with the "non-interfearance" rule, given that they're very hands-off with humans so far. Just as Earth contributes Starfleet to the Federation, the Vulcans contribute an early form of the PRime Directive.
And I certainly won't claim that the "new show is perfect," because it's not.
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