Finally, I can use PSP again! Woo hoo! This is a variant of a TAS based shuttle I did some time ago (people with short memories click here and here) designed specifically for military use. Since this is something Masao first suggested to me I decided to ste...borrow some of the 'look' from a few of his own designs at SFM, including a very small version of his Type-7 missile.
This is still a WIP of course, but most of the elements are in place.
P.S. 'Starfleet Marines' over my stinking, maggot infested corpse! Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Actually, I believe "Marines" is the correct terminology.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Like it. But maybe you could let the missiles look a bit less like present-day devices. Okay, there can't be that much variety because they need to be streamlined (at least for orbital attacks), but how about submerging them into the hull.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
And I suppose we'll have to modify the Indigo model as well, right? We'll wait until the debate about the missiles is done first, then it'll only take an hour or two to make the 'physical' changes and Rev can send me appropriate decals.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Actually, I believe "Marines" is the correct terminology.
*coughs up hairball* Ghak..Uhhp..Blauh!
Yeah, anyway; last time I checked there wasn't a great deal of liquid water in space. Then there's Kirk's line in "Arena" about his 'Tactical Squad' (or something similar) and their big nasty photon mortars. Also I have something of an issue with too many Earth centric terms being used in a supposedly multi-cultural Starfleet. I imagine the term would confuse most species from planets with little or no open water, like Vulcan for instance.
quote: Like it. But maybe you could let the missiles look a bit less like present-day devices. Okay, there can't be that much variety because they need to be streamlined (at least for orbital attacks), but how about submerging them into the hull.
I had initially intended to do just that, but then I remembered what those side bulges contained. I don't think it would be wise to imbed heavy ordinance into the hull, right next to the main fuel tanks. Besides, having them on hard point struts like that allows a certain amount of flexibility in the equipment that the shuttle can carry. For instance, instead of those four missiles it could carry extra fuel in disposable 'slug tanks', or specialised sensor pods/comms gear for command and control duties. Maybe even a set of fixed position particle weapons.
I've altered the missile a little bit, made the fins a little more funky, the head and tail more bulbous and painted of a big command star, but as you say, it can't be too much unlike todays missiles since it's what's under the casing that makes the real difference.
quote: And I suppose we'll have to modify the Indigo model as well, right? We'll wait until the debate about the missiles is done first, then it'll only take an hour or two to make the 'physical' changes and Rev can send me appropriate decals.
That's entirely up to you Kenny, I just whipped this up purely for the change of pace as it's very rare that I do anything particularly militant. Aside from that I haven't used PSP in months, I wanted to see if I remember how to draw a circle. If you do decide to mesh it up, just give me a shout when you're ready for the decals.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Having those missiles hanging off the ship seems a bit dangerous. If they are hit by stray phaser fire, you'd quickly have a bad day. Also a troop ship would want to maximize load-lifting capacity by having fewer weapons. I suspect Starfleet might have dedicated ground attack/close support ships, something like Cobra attack copters.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
I'm not sure about the placement of those missiles myself, too.
How about putting only two missiles in the front? (under that '03' number)
Also, your plasma conduits look very complicated - that poor plasma must turn 180 degrees before it goes through accelerator, and then it must turn once more before it can get into nacelles.
The reason it bothers me is very simple - I think that each turn will cause plasma to flow slower, causing it to flow into nacelles at slower rate, which would indicate slower maximum warp speed.
I mean, NX-01 is so fast because it has three plasma accelerators, right? One would want to optimize and shorten path for plasma between reactor and nacelle...
How about moving those accelerators aft and rotating them 90 degrees?
Other than that, it's excellent work as usual. Who needs some stinkin' Marines anyway Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I must confess to hating both the missiles and the gun turrets. I mean, solely on the basis of them being so un-Trek.
For a more Trekky look, I'd suggest losing the barrels from the guns. Give the chin turrets a starship turret look, with just a steerable "lens" projecting from the side. That will be "mean" enough for a Trekkie. And who cares about what non-Trekkies say?
Come to think of it, the placement issue bothers me a bit. What does the top turret do? Fire at other spacecraft? The nacelles get on the way. Perhaps you should put the missiles up there - they'd only fire forward. They'd be safe from ground fire. And they wouldn't hit disembarking Mar.. Tactical Corpspersons, either!
The color scheme rulez. The disembarking bar is a bit sillyish, though. Why not a classic TOS two-piece door, with the lower half forming the step?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Now that he mentions it, that little footstep-thing could also more easily get shot off by enemy fire. Of course, the hilarity that would ensue as the troops began to exit the craft would probably be worth it, but still... Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Lest we all get bogged down in bits getting shot off, let me remind you of a few 'facts' in Rev's defence.
1. This is supposedly a ship in an era where field technology rules, that means it only flies because it has amazing anti-gravity fields, inertial damping fields and probably a little thing known as a 'shield'. Therefore it doesn't have to be aerodynamic or particularly airworthy (it isn't) and it doesn't have to worry about small arms fire. Anything powerful enough to really damage it should have been taken out beforehand by a starship or the long-range intelligent missiles it carries for defence suppression.
2. Who gives a damn if the footrest is blown off.
I've noticed a lot of Trek fans like to think that the Federation must build ships that can do anything and everything perfectly. While they certainly make superb all-rounders they also contain a lot of compromise and potential for disaster if used for the wrong purpose. We cant expect a shuttle to be invincible, invulnerable and all conquering, the most we can ask is that it gets your team down safely and reliably under the conditions it was meant to operate in.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Amen to that! In treknology, it's the shortcomings and risks that make it interesting...
One does wonder. If this were just a landing barge for starship-deployed Mar.. Tactical Corps, why have warp nacelles on her? She could rather be an independently operating special ops deployment vehicle instead, so she'd need all that armament to oust herself from trouble. There'd be no backup or orbital fire support there.
Then again, for a special ops vehicle, the Gemini is a bit conspicuously painted... Perhaps she should have adaptive camouflage paint. Atmospheric blue-grey, ground green-brown, night/space black. Could this be made to look sufficiently "low-tech" somehow? You know, not everything magically changing color, but only select parts of add-on hull paneling being of adaptive color.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
I would imagine that colour and suchlike would be pretty unimportant in the time period we're discussing, it's much more important to be able to sneak past automated sensors and technology than it is for it to be the right colour for the environment. Makes no odds if it's green, black or blue to a radar or similar system, and you can bet that even on the ground they'd detect it half a planetary radius away with tricorders before they ever clap eyes on the thing. Green might make you feel safer in a forest once down, but if you're detected 30,000 kilometres away...
Rev, I've made the main body of the missile but I can't bring myself to put those poxy fins on it, they interfere with panel lines and suchlike and it looks pretty damn mean without them. I'll post pics in a little while to show progress on the ship and to sort out the camp missiles.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Cheers Kenny, you're quite right. Sheilds are for sheilding vulnerable things and they do it quite nicely.
quote: Also a troop ship would want to maximize load-lifting capacity by having fewer weapons. I suspect Starfleet might have dedicated ground attack/close support ships, something like Cobra attack copters.
It's tricky because I don't think that there is any direct analogy in modern day hardware, on the one hand it's a short range interstellar craft, on the other it's a landing vehicle with moderate weaponary. My thinking is that these craft have warp drive so that they are not dependant upon a mother-ship with large shuttle support facilities. Instead they can travel in groups of three or six with a reletivly small task force, say only a Cruiser, a couple Destroyers and some support ships and perhaps a fighter escort. The large turret on top of the craft (which I am in the process of revising) is really for supressive or dispersive fire against buildings, fortifications or weapons emplacements. It's not really suitible for vehicle-to-vehicle combat given it's limited field of fire, infact I'm not sure if I even want it to be a phaser.
I've come up with an alternative design for the fron ball turrets, which are primaraly anti-personnel in nature but can be effective against hostile craft, but again the limited feild of fire is, well...limiting. I made it a little unusual, in that it has three mounted emitter crystals that rapidly rotate around the center, giving off a high rate of fire without overheating too early. I also happen to like moving parts on ships plus this kind of thing give's the 3D modelers migrains.
Again with the missiles, I've been very lazy by just sticking four of them on the hard-points instead of giving it a more moderate mix of sensor equipment, fuel pods and lower yield ordinance. What you see here is the most destructive payload available, not the most common. As Kenny suggested they are probably smart-missiles, launched before landing to take out significant threats near the landing zone or to help clear orbital defences/obstructions.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
OK, I made a missile that doesn't quite make me gag the same way the original did. This one has panels that will open even if the fins are attached, and I've made a little image map with warnings and numbers and stuff for variety. If you want the original Photoshop pic of this with the guide pic in place then let me know Rev, you might want markings and stuff that i can't draw.
quote:Originally posted by Axeman 3D: OK, I made a missile that doesn't quite make me gag the same way the original did. This one has panels that will open even if the fins are attached, and I've made a little image map with warnings and numbers and stuff for variety. If you want the original Photoshop pic of this with the guide pic in place then let me know Rev, you might want markings and stuff that i can't draw.
You beat me too it, I was just about to suggest this modification. Instead of lame, old fashioned fins I thought little RCS thruster packs might look better.
What you've done so far looks good. Shoot the map over to me and I'll add in the warning strips and the serial number. I'm not sure about the command star though, but I suppose it's worth a shot to see what it looks like.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Much better, a bit fancy for TOS or TAS period right enough, but I'll make the necessary mods. In the meantime here's an update on the ship modifications...
Reverend, awesome work on the Tactical Shuttle. I am glad to see you are back in business. I missed seeing some of your work. It is always well thought out and makes sense. Once again, I am glad that you are back.
Cheers,
Sarvek
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, it is indeed good to have the good Reverend back on the force. If only I weren't still haunted by the delightfully euphoric feeling I got when I saw this so many months ago...*sigh*
-MMoM Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
You know, after looking at Kenny's render I'm wondering if the nose on this boat is a bit long.
The new missile and turret look great.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Hmm, the nose was made in the same way as the rest of the ship, I cut Revs plans into individual front, side and rear shots and place them in the appropriate windows in Lightwave. I then basically 'trace' round the drawings to make the basic shapes, and that ensures the model is pretty accurate to the plans. The nose is the size Rev drew it.
As for the updated model Rev has sent me a new set of decals and I've fitted them to the nacelles and side pods, with just the stripes and stuff to be fitted tonight. I've still to maodel the new doors and step, but that wont take long at all. Once it's all done I'll do a render or two and then slap the 2 versions into a zip file for download at my site.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
A few new alterations; The new weaponry has been installed, some new markings have been put on the aft surface. I've also put in two rows of plasma flare launchers (behind the cannons), two sets of countermeasure launchers (ventral aft) and split the door in two so it can retract with out colliding the the deuterium tanks. Also note that the port side crew access door has been removed, this is to make some room inside for the gunner's console.
quote: Yes, it is indeed good to have the good Reverend back on the force. If only I weren't still haunted by the delightfully euphoric feeling I got when I saw this so many months ago...*sigh*
Don't get your knickers in a twist, it's on my to-do list.
quote: You know, after looking at Kenny's render I'm wondering if the nose on this boat is a bit long.
Funny you should say that, I did actually make an error during the initial modifications. Somehow I managed to move the nose forwards a bit without noticing, it's since been corrected though. Assuming Kenny has left this part of the mesh untouched since it's 'Indigo' incarnation then what you're seeing is probably just a trick of perspective.
Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Nothing has been touched on the nose of the model, I just cut the ship in the middle, moved the nose section forward and put in the new mid section. It should be fine, assuming the original drawing i worked from was fine. I actually like this size of ship better, it's kind of grown into it's nacelles now, it doesn't look like it's about to topple over backwards due to the weight of it's engines. I'd seriously think about ditching the remaining crew door as well, looks out of place next to those 2 big hatches.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I agree, which is why I made the model number SC3-H10', so that this is the baseline for the 'H-Series' while the Carter Wilson version was the civilian model 'SC3-H12'. Presumably the 'H-11' would be the cargo carrier, maybe I'll design that version sometime down the road.
I think for safety reason it's best to keep at least one door in the forward section, which is how most modern day transport helicopters (like the Blackhawks) seam to be arranged.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
I suppose while I'm at it I might as well update the old schematic to match the style of the new one. SC3-H12_schematic.gif Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Don't get your knickers in a twist, it's on my to-do list.
Oh goodie! *jumps up and down* I am so relieved that you haven't forgotten about the old girl...
quote:Carter Wilson
Winston, actually. Posted by Sarvek (Member # 910) on :
Reverend, what is on your to do list??
Are you planning on working on the Constitution Project?
Cheers,
Sarvek
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Rev was always the one working on that project I proposed, and doing a fantastic job of it, too.
BTW Rev, I can't remember if I ever sent you this link, but I know he's now updated the page with all the prints, which may be more accurate than Alan Sinclair's.
-MMoM Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Kenny, I'm sure your model is accurate, based on Rev's schematic. I was just thinking that the nose of his ship looked a bit long. Just my opinion.
I concur with MMoM's suggestion of the Casimiro schematics. They're easier to work with the Alan Sinclair's, but I can't say which is more accurate. I based my schematics for the Museum on Casimiro's.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Just felt the need to add some here. The new weaponry looks very good, including the fact that the dorsal gun barrels now have some elevation capability.
The placement of the top turret is still problematic when firing at ground targets (arguably the main job of the weapon). Again, something more futuristic than the weapon depicted might be both more practical and cooler-looking. Could the turret be made to protrude more, and perhaps have some sort of visible telescoping or otherwise extending structure to allow for "top-down" firing? You know, a cobra head rising from the hull and spitting venom down at its victims...
A more protruding assembly would also suggest the gun takes up less room inside, so placement above the space that has the major exit doors would look more sensible. So that the teecees won't need to wear helmets to avoid bumping their heads to that thing. Trek troops cannot wear helmets. It's unconstitutional.
And yes, I love the concept of a "H family" of designs! All the more reason to make the weapons of the H-10 look like add-ons that don't require major alterations in the original structure.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote: Winston, actually.
Him too!
quote: Are you planning on working on the Constitution Project?
Uhh...sure, why not.
quote: BTW Rev, I can't remember if I ever sent you this link, but I know he's now updated the page with all the prints, which may be more accurate than Alan Sinclair's.
Yeah I'm sure I've seen those. I know that Masao has used them as reference for his version of the Connie.
quote: Kenny, I'm sure your model is accurate, based on Rev's schematic. I was just thinking that the nose of his ship looked a bit long. Just my opinion.
After digging up your original thread I can see what you mean. Thinking back, I belive I made the nose slightly bigger than it might appear in that tiny, fuzzy little picture so as to make it into a practical canopy instead of a blank protruding nub.
quote: I concur with MMoM's suggestion of the Casimiro schematics. They're easier to work with the Alan Sinclair's, but I can't say which is more accurate. I based my schematics for the Museum on Casimiro's.
Most of the work is done, I just hit a brick wall when someone discovered that Sinclair's window arrangment was inacurate. I'll get back on it within the next few weeks...probably. *pokes Monkey with a stick*
quote: Just felt the need to add some here. The new weaponry looks very good, including the fact that the dorsal gun barrels now have some elevation capability.
They always did. Initially I tried covering the turret joint with a sort of rubbery material, but it didn't look very good and would have probably been a pain for Kenny to model so I made it a little more visibly mechanical.
quote: The placement of the top turret is still problematic when firing at ground targets (arguably the main job of the weapon). Again, something more futuristic than the weapon depicted might be both more practical and cooler-looking. Could the turret be made to protrude more, and perhaps have some sort of visible telescoping or otherwise extending structure to allow for "top-down" firing? You know, a cobra head rising from the hull and spitting venom down at its victims...
That would be treading a little too close to fanboy territory for my tastes. As for the turret shape, I'm wondering if this weapon could actually fire projectiles...perhaps the same mortar rounds we saw in "Arena"?
quote: A more protruding assembly would also suggest the gun takes up less room inside, so placement above the space that has the major exit doors would look more sensible. So that the teecees won't need to wear helmets to avoid bumping their heads to that thing. Trek troops cannot wear helmets. It's unconstitutional.
Have you ever been inside a real APC? (not that this is exactly an APC) I have and believe me, you'd be lucky if you can walk doubled over, without cracking your head on something (the real reason why soldiers wear helmets ). Seriously though, most of the people in the aft section will be sat down for most of the ride down and chances are they'll be horizontal on the ride up. A little protruding machinery in the centre of the craft is a minor inconvenience.
quote: And yes, I love the concept of a "H family" of designs! All the more reason to make the weapons of the H-10 look like add-ons that don't require major alterations in the original structure.
Well if the H-10 is the baseline model then what you're looking at is the original structure. Still I know what you mean and and it shouldn't be too difficult to remove the turret if need be and weld a plate of tritanium over the hull. However if you look at the design of the main hull it is divided up into visible sections, the H-12 had only three while as you can see the H-10 has an extra section in the middle that contain's extra internal volume.
So basically it's these central sections which are different from variant to variant and each model is built for a specific purpose so there isn't much of a need to remove/add weapons in this manner. Before anyone suggests otherwise, the modular nature of this design is purely for the benefit of the assembly line, so they can use the same jigs and moulds to create the common components and not have to rework the whole internal structure for every different model. It is not meant to be a swap-out/modular design where you can change the role of the craft by swapping one module for another.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Just an idea I'm toying with...
The idea being to have one of these at each of the two sliding doors to provide fire support for disembarking/embarking troops, analogous to the mini-guns you see attached to helicopters in Vietnam movies. For the sake of manuverability and ease of storage it is mounted on a spring force articulated support arm, the sort used on stedicams and the Smartguns from Aliens.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Ouch! I like. Posted by Axeman 3D (Member # 1050) on :
Meanwhile, at a production facility not a million miles away...
Awesome work Axeman 3D. It would be cool to see the Aquashuttle that Reverend also rendered like those craft. Reverend does some great work on starship and shuttle designs.
Cheers,
Sarvek
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Those guns are very cool and totally in TOS-style! Kudos to both of you.
Posted by Styrofoaman (Member # 706) on :
Very cool. Wish I had talent like this.
Like the missile with the RCS thrusters in place of fins.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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this new turret just ROCKS! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
