posted
No Omega, I forgot, but thanks for reminding me! That was actually a reference to your whacked out beliefs. And don't DARE call me Christian. I may believe the Bible, but I am not a Christian. Organized religion is for suckers.
And you conservative hate the system of justice. Take the death penalty, completely unamerican. The concept of due process would have been turned to nothing in this country, were it not for some liberal judges. I could go into more specifics, but that is best saved for another thread.
Baloo: Congress has not issued a declaration of war since December 1941, and it never will again. That is a relic of a system that made sense, we don't need it in our theocracy. And yes, I'm in with the whole lot. All us humans suck. Daryus was right, there is no truth. I need to change my siggy again.
------------------ "Throw me in the fire and I won't throw a fit" - Kurt Cobain Scentless Apprentice, Nirvana
But seriously now, what do you find so strange about them?
"I may believe the Bible, but I am not a Christian."
We seem to get to semantics around here alot. If you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and believe that He is the Son of God, I consider you a Christian, whether you go for the organized part or not.
"And you conservative hate the system of justice."
Uh, no. We're the ones who defend the rule of law. Liberals want to qualify crimes based on who was the victim. "Were they gay? Were they black? Oh, well then the criminal deserves about five times the prison sentance." That's not justice. ('Course, since pretty much everyone stands to your right, you might be refering to what I call a liberal, in which case you would be correct.)
"Take the death penalty, completely unamerican."
Gotta agree here. I don't like the death penalty. No, that doesn't make me a liberal. That just means I disagree with some conservatives. There's disagreement among liberals, too, you know. You can have disagreements with other members of your party and still be considered conservative or liberal, as long as your basic philosophy remains the same.
"The concept of due process would have been turned to nothing in this country, were it not for some liberal judges. I could go into more specifics, but that is best saved for another thread."
I believe I'd like to see that. Please, give some examples. And I feel compelled to remind you that, until '94, liberals were in control of congress, and had been for several decades. Conservatives had almost no control over policy until '94, so if those policies ever had a chance of passing, they were supported by liberals in the first place.
"Congress has not issued a declaration of war since December 1941..."
The Gulf War and Korean war weren't delcared? I didn't know that.
People keep saying that conservatives (more specifically, the Christian Coalition) want to force their religion on everyone, and your statements seem to infer that you believe that (sorry if I'm wrong here). Can anyone give me one example? One?
Oh, and about my previous message, where I was talking about the idea of the people being dumb and needing someone to take care of them: that's also the rationalle that some used to justify slavery.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 29, 1999).]
posted
And although I very much am against the Death Penalty as it now stands in the US, as it is biased and often used in cases where guilt is not clearly established, I still don't see what would be wrong with a PROPERLY ADMINISTERED death penalty.
I mean, we kill wild dogs...
And wild people can do a lot more damage...
and upwards of 95% of people convicted of murder have an average of 7 prior felonies. The "crime of passion" is largely mythical.
I mean, there was this one guy in my state not long ago, who raped an old grandmother. They put him away for several years. Eventually, as all inmates do, he got out. Then he came back and did it AGAIN (to the same woman).
And you're telling me we should let a creature like that continue to exist?
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
I never am quite sure what exactly people are talking about with this. Does this mean that students can't get together to pray? Does it mean that the teachers can't make a classroom be quiet while some of the students pray? I'd say that the constitutional approach would be to allow (not help) anyone to pray whenever they want, in whatever manner they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with the class. Any law forcing people to take part in a religious (for lack of a better word) ceremony is unconstutitional. But any law preventing people from doing the same is, too. As long as your expressing your beliefs doesn't interfere with someone else's education.
"2.) No marriage for people who desire a committment, if they happen to be of the same gender."
Marriage is a religious ritual, so I agree that the government has no business creating rules governing it. What does a marriage mean to the government, anyway? That you have to pay somewhat higher taxes is all I can see. (You'd think the taxes would be LOWER on married couples. Seems like liberals have a bad habit of punishing correct behavior. And before anyone says anything, I don't mean correct from a moral standpoint. I mean correct from the POV of the prooven statistic that children born out of wedlock have a far greater chance of engaging in criminal activity and joining gangs. Time for the country to face it: the nuclear family is essential to our culture.)
"3.) Creationism."
Oh, let's not start arguing about that again. But from an educational standpont, evolution directly contradicts the religious beliefs of many (me, for one), so by teaching it in schools, the government is choosing sides in a religious debate. It can't do that.
So who tried to pass these laws, and when?
My problem with the death penalty is that I don't think we have the right to decide that a human life is unsalvagable.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
posted
Well, MY problem with the death penalty is that it depends on human courts.
Beyond that, and I don't mean to restart this whole fight, facts are neutral. The government has no obligation to cower before the religious beliefs of any group. Simple history offends a lot of people too. Shall we then delete those portions of it that are found offensive? Internment camps for citizens of Japanese descent? Offends my belief in America. Delete it. Etc.
And prayer in schools. Good topic. Touchy one too. Omega, you mention something about worship so long as it doesn't interfere with the education of others. How then do we accomodate Islamic students? Most people calling for school prayer are doing so from a Christian background, where prayers can be done silently and without any exterior signs. That can't be done in Islam, or many other religions.
------------------ "And she stands beneath the mistletoe screaming. For him to stand beneath the mistletoe, screaming." -- They Might Be Giants
posted
First: The concept that all inmates eventually get out is a concept made by conservatives like yourself to scare people into murdering their fellow man.
Omega: They weren't declared. But you have no idea who Che Guevera is, so I wouldn't expect you to know more than American History as taught in school.
"In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Then, we conquered the continent from the savages, overthrew the British tyrants, destroyed slavery, and won the world freedom in World War I and II."
Simon: Yeah, you go man!
------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
posted
"Most people calling for school prayer are doing so from a Christian background, where prayers can be done silently and without any exterior signs. That can't be done in Islam, or many other religions."
Do it between classes, then. After school, before school, whatever. Ask to be excused momentarily if timing is important. It can be done.
"facts are neutral"
True, but you can proove that the Holocaust occured and that Japanese-Americans were imprisoned during WWII. It's fact. As far as evolution is concerned, you have little evidence, and all of it can be explained in other ways. It's not prooven fact. Not by a long shot. I'm thinking about writing my own school textbooks for publication. My discussion on the origin of the universe will be about two sentances long. All it will do is explain that some believe that life originated by a series of effectively random events, and that others believe that a supernatural entity or entities created the universe. It will also point out good resources for both sides of the argument, if any readers are interested. And yes, I'll probably contact First o' Two and Sol to get the names of good evolutionary resources.
DT:
"The concept that all inmates eventually get out is a concept made by conservatives like yourself to scare people into murdering their fellow man. "
Well, all inmates eventually DO get out, unless they're given life imprisonment, death, or die in prison by some other means. In many major cities, it is a fact that most inmates don't serve anywhere near their sentances. Check your stats. I think it's somewhere around 30% of sentence in in L.A.
"But you have no idea who Che Guevera is, so I wouldn't expect you to know more than American History as taught in school."
Considerably more, actually, but there's definitely some stuff I've missed. Care to point me to some good textbooks? I've looked up the name, actually, to see why I'd never heard of someone who you seem to think is so important.
Ernesto "Che" Guevera. It's no wonder I've never heard of him. Doesn't seem to have done much of import. Wrote a few books on socialism. Protested against Pero�. Helped Castro run Cuba for a while. Seems like the most important thing he did was sever economic ties with the US, opting for Russia and the Socialist bloc instead. So if it weren't for him, Cuba'd probably be in far better econimic shape, and we might not have had the Cuban missile crisis. Over all, not a very important figure in the history of the west. Did I miss anything?
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
Howard Zinn A People's History of the United States : 1492-Present
Joyce Appleby Telling the Truth About History
Peter Novick That Noble Dream : The 'Objectivity Question' and the American Historical Profession
Daniel J. Boorstin Americans : The National Experience
~~~ The Creators/a History of Heroes of the Imagination
John Bodnar Remaking America : Public Memory, Commemoration, and Patriotism in the Twentieth Century
~~~ Bonds of Affection : Americans Define Their Patriotism
Mary Beth Norton Founding Mothers & Fathers : Gendered Power and the Forming of American Society
Leon Fink (Editor) Major Problems in the Gilded Age and the Progressive Era
Michael G. Kammen The Mystic Chords of Memory : The Transformation of Tradition in American Culture
I think I'll stop now after having put my years in school to good use. Have fun!
------------------ It's no use. I guess I'll have to leave all my money to the Egg Advisory Council. Eggs have gotten quite a bad rap lately, you know, Smithers. ~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited December 30, 1999).]
posted
Che happened to be one of the best soldiers of our modern era. His exploits during the Cuban Revolution are the stuff of legend, and his untimely demise in Bolivia is a fascinating story. And considering Gueverism, one of the dominant forms of leftist thought, sprung from his book, that makes it a bit more important than you'd say. Of course, in your world, all thought comes from a few small parts of the Bible, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, and Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
posted
And don't forget "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty". Once you figure out the cipher key, it's a wealth of secret information.
------------------ CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. --Ambrose Bierce <B>Come Hither and Yawn...</B>
posted
Omega, your suggestions seem to violate the principles you laid out earlier. That is, that religious practices should not be allowed to interfere with the education of others. Disrupting class is definately an interference. I suggest, in addition to looking at Jay's list, you pick up a book on comparitive relgious practices. And read Dune. Because everyone should read Dune.
------------------ "And she stands beneath the mistletoe screaming. For him to stand beneath the mistletoe, screaming." -- They Might Be Giants
"Of course, in your world, all thought comes from a few small parts of the Bible, Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations, and Darwin's Theory of Evolution."
Huh? Forgive me, but I'm not quite sure I understand that. If you mean my life philosophy, you're not that far off. Just change it to the entire Bible, and throw some Rush Limbaugh and the Constitution in there. But as for thought coming from Darwin's theory of Evoltion: Ha! (Just kidding, guys!)
Sol:
Good point, but leaving class quietly is not siginificantly disruptive. You can always pick up what you missed when you get back, and your departure will cause a distraction for about fifteen seconds. And then only for the first few times.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
posted
Wow... great thread. All I would add is this:
Isn't it great that (if you are an American in this debate) you live in a country where you can speak your beliefs and freely criticize your fellow citizens, social institutions (such as churches) and even the state in a public forum without fear of punishment or reprisal?
Thank God! (Or Darwin, if you prefer, or blind chance and coincidence, it's up to you) ;-)
------------------ Dane
"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7
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