Ever have to stop a class you've conducted in order to let someone leave the room and then come back? I have. It's extremely hard to get going again. Especially if it's half the student body. The time lost is uaually at least triple the length of the absence.
I'll let you in on something. You aleready HAVE the right to pray in school. You always HAVE. Silently. Whenever you want. On your OWN time. WITHOUT disrupting class. Pray during study hall. Pray during lunch. Pray in the restroom. Pray while the teacher's handing back the tests (like most students do.) Nobody will stop you. How can they? They're not telepathic.
What you DON'T have the right to do is pray loudly, disruptively, or non-inclusively, in the form of an organization or official school-sanctioned prayer.
Besides, you already can pray whenever you want to at home and in church. Personally, I think an entire DAY set aside for it should be enough for anybody. It's quality, not quantity, that matters, right?
and while you're at it...
More examples.
4.) The rewriting of the Pledge of Allegiance to include "under God" 5.) The recoinage of our money with the slogan "in God we trust."
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 30, 1999).]
posted
1st of 2: Good point about prayer in schools.
There are no atheists in foxholes, nor are there many in the presence of a pop quiz.
As far as allowing prayer in class, I would think that it would be against the law to prevent someone from observing an important aspect of their faith. When I worked as part of our mobility program at the base, I was occasionally asked to escort an Islamic person (person of the Islamic faith? What's the proper term anyway?) to a sequestered room so they could pray at the appropriate time in privacy (once you've processed in, you may not leave the area except under escort, until you get on the plane). As long as it did not seriously disrupt the mobility process, we went to great lengths to ensure that those who wished to comply with their religion were afforded the opportunity to do so.
Many religions allow their members some leeway in the performance of some requirements when it conflicts with good sense. According to a friend of mine who happens to be Jewish, he is not obligated to keep kosher during times of war or other emergencies. I imagine there are exceptions for other faiths as well.
--Baloo
------------------ CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. --Ambrose Bierce Come Hither and Yawn...[/B]
posted
"You already HAVE the right to pray in school. You always HAVE. Silently."
I know I can. Actually, I can't even remember the last time I prayed out loud. I'm just arguing the point for other religions. Isn't it Islam where you have to bow towards Mecca five times a day? (Never could find out whether those are specified times or not. Anyone care to enlighten me?)
"Ever have to stop a class you've conducted in order to let someone leave the room and then come back?"
Who says you have to stop class? Why not just have the student inform the teacher if he or she needs to leave during class? That way, everyone who needs to know what's going on will. Then they can just stand up and walk out quietly. A student won't miss much during a five minute absence, and they can always find out what they missed after class.
"What you DON'T have the right to do is pray... in the form of an organization"
I hope you don't mean outside the class. Outside the class, you can do whatever you want, group or otherwise. During class, you can't talk, or hold up signs, or what have you, because it disrupts class as long as you do. That's why I suggest that people whose religions require them to do things that may disrupt the class be allowed to leave temporarily.
"4.) The rewriting of the Pledge of Allegiance to include "under God" 5.) The recoinage of our money with the slogan "in God we trust.""
More like the rewriting of the pledge to EXCLUDE "under God", as has been done before. I believe it was there to begin with. That recoinage happened in 1865, in case anyone's interested.
First, you seem to think that this government has to officially have nothing to do with God, in any form. That it can't even recognize His existance. I've got news for you: this country was founded on the religious principles found in the Bible. A book you should read: The Rewriting of American History, by Catherine Millard. You might learn something.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
posted
I think you'd just call them a Muslim, Baloo. Islam means something along the lines of "to submit (to Allah)." Muslim means "one who submits." I think.
When you pray to Mecca five times a day (one of the five pillars of the Islamic faith), there are no precise times, per se, but it must be done at set intervals (once in the morning, in the afternoon, once after every meal, when you're going to bed, something like that -- even though that's six). I'm remembering this from a few years ago in school, so this may not be entirely accurate.
So should there be laws allowing Muslim children to get out of class to pray? I'm not touching it with a 20-metre runabout.
------------------ Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
posted
Wrong! Red the first ammendment! The US CANNOT establish a state religion. By recognizing one god, it does that. Why does the money not read: In Allah We Trust?
And conservatives base their views on Darwin. It's called Social Darwinism, and you're a big purveyor of it yourself
------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
I fully support the FARC and the Shining Path and I hope that they both achieve victory over the forces of capitalism, taking control of both Columbia and Peru, respectively.
See, now the FBI can legally investigate me. How the hell is that freedom? God bless America, or in lieu of that, blow this place straight to hell.
(the preceding was meant only to prove a point, I do not now nor ever have supported the FARC or the Shining Path, both of which are terrorist organizations)
Incidentally, murders convictions have been and can be overturned in court because the defendant was mentioned to be a member of a white supremacist party in the sentencing phase, yet it has been declared legal to uphold not just the conviction but the death sentence if it is mentioned that the defendant was a member of the Black Panther Party. Now, let's think, which one criticized the government, capitalism, and white America more? Hmm.... that's a tough one. Let's ask Fred Hampton. Can't, damn, he's dead. The pigs shot him. Let's ask Mark Clark then. Damn, he's dead too, same cops shot him down. How about the members of MOVE? Wait, they're either dead or in prison. What about Leonard Peltier? No, he's in prison, I forgot, even though the DA admitted in open court there is no proof at all. Hmm.. How about Geronimo? He's free! He only spent, how many years in jail? Thank God I live in a country that doesn't have political prisoners. Oooh, I hate that China! They're so evil! Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where radical political dissent is tolerated? Let's ask Malcolm X... DAMN! He's dead too. How about Martin Luther King Jr? He should know, right... Oh, I know who would know! A. Mitchell Palmer and J. Edgar Hoover. Must be something about using your middle name...
"Prevent the rise of a messiah who could unify and electrify the militant black nationalist movement. Malcolm X might have been such a 'messiah;' he is the martyr of the movement today. Martin Luther King, Stokely Carmichael, and Elijah Muhammed all aspire to this position... King could be a real contender for this position should he abandon his supposed 'obedience' to 'white liberal doctrines' of nonviolence and embrace black nationalism"
------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
posted
Islam and Muslim both come from the same word in Arabic, and roughly translate as total submission, yes. As for the prayer times, they are, as I recall: just after awakening, mid-morning, early-afternoon, just after sundown, and just before bed.
------------------ "20th Century, go to sleep." -- R.E.M.
posted
"And conservatives base their views on Darwin. It's called Social Darwinism"
I've heard the term, but I've never bothered to find out what it meant. What is it?
"By recognizing one god..."
Who says we're recognizing ONE god? Read the definition of "god". It can be used as a generic term refering to any deity.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
posted
Social Dawrinism has been a boil on humanity's butt ever since it was conceived. Basically, it presumes that Darwinian pressures select powerful cultures to dominate the weaker ones. As far as that goes, I suppose it's correct. Where it gets (at the very least) annoying is where it justifies anything you (or your government, or your "crowd") do as long as it gains you power and control over others. If they were not the strongest, they (whoever "they" is this week) would have been able to prevent it, therefore they deserve whatever you do to them. As a matter of fact, it's your duty to your group to do whatever you can to subjugate others, as this will prevent them from doing it to you first. It's the opposite of the "Golden Rule". I suppose this makes it the "shit" rule? It all boils down to "Might is right".
If I were to adhere to this philosophy, I would promote mandatory euthanasia for the elderly, weak and crippled, or anyone else who was a "drain" on society's resources. "Grandma's in the rest home? It's a waste of resources. Give her the injection." Under Social Darwinism, Stephen Hawking would have been disposed of long before he had anything significant to say to the physics community and Grandma Moses would have been eliminated before she took up painting.
Social Darwinism has been used (not always under that banner) to promote such things as racial segregation and the forcible sterilization of habitual criminals and "idiots" during the 1920s in the U.S. It is the basis of the Nazi belief that the Aryan race had the right to subjugate and destroy all others because they had the power to do so.
Social Darwinism, when examined closely, is a sociopathic philosophy. It is the ultimate expression of self-interest to the exclusion of all other considerations. It is a manifestation of evil.
--Baloo
------------------ CONSERVATIVE, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others. --Ambrose Bierce Come Hither and Yawn...[/B]
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited December 31, 1999).]
posted
Interestingly enough, Social Darwinism evolved through different people and only the strongest... uh, ahem "theories" of it actually captivated people.
But other than that, it is evil indeed.
------------------ Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")
posted
Ah. And DT thinks that this is a view of most conservatives? Boy, his views are even more warped than I thought.
------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 31, 1999).]
posted
What do you call cuts in social spending? For that matter, what do you call the elimination of affirmative action and restricting immigration?
This country was founded on Social Darwinism, much before Darwin was born. Why are we here? Cause we were stronger than the natives. We killed them, so we have the land, and that's why we "deserve" it. Manifest destiny and all that. It's also the theory behind US imperialism. "We're" the strongest, so we decide what's right. That's why we get the Caspian Oil, that's why we tell Iraq and Serbia and Isreal and Turkey what to do. Isn't it?
------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
------------------ It's no use. I guess I'll have to leave all my money to the Egg Advisory Council. Eggs have gotten quite a bad rap lately, you know, Smithers. ~C. Montgomery Burns
posted
It is important to note that social darwinism stems from the same 19th century tendancy to misapply science as phrenology. That is, it was a time when people were quite willing to take scientific findings in one field, like biology, and apply them to something entirely different. As anyone who has read Thomas Malthus knows, these concepts were not new to the era. But the name "social darwinisn" was an attempt to somehow justify it as being scientific or progressive.
After one hundred years or so of our current technological revolution, people have thankfully become a bit more discerning. Most, anyway.
------------------ "20th Century, go to sleep." -- R.E.M.
posted
It is also a commen Fundie propaganda tactic to assume, loudly, that proponents of REAL Darwinism will necessarily be proponents of "social" Darwinism, when, in fact, the reverse is commonly true, and most scientists find "social" Darwinism repellent, as I do, and I assume most of us would.
as for DT.. well, let's just say I don't see him moving anytime soon to any of the countries he claims the USA is "repressing," probably for the same reasons that so many of their citizens often seem anxious to move here.
Maybe we're heavy-handed, but (aside from possibly The Netherlands and Canada,) we're still the best game in town.
------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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